HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL STORE CONTACT US

Maritime Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums & Chat Rooms
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Instant Chat Box

Who's Online
10 registered (Daryl F, His child, JCS, Mountain Man, Pete P Pete, Rosangela, Suzanne, Tom, västergötland, 1 invisible), 46 Guests and 5 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
glenm, warona, GlorySong, CHal, Jef
1082 Registered Users
Who's OnIine In
Chat Room #1?
Right Click Here & Select "Open in New Tab or Window" to Enter Chat Room #1 or Just Simply Click Here
Join the following presently in Chat Room #1:

Welcome!
Welcome to the worldwide forums of Maritime 2nd Advent Christian Believers Online (formerly Maritime Seventh-day Adventist Online).

This is a free service.

Membership fees do not exist here.

Donations are accepted and help keep this ministry going as well as keep our software up to date. If you wish to make a donation, please send me an email.

If you have any problems and need any assistance, please click on the Contact Us link on the bottom right of this page.

for making us a part of your Internet experience.

Daryl Fawcett
Administrator
Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

Top 10 Posters (Last 30 Days)
Mountain Man 242
Tom 170
Rosangela 102
västergötland 92
His child 65
Daryl F 42
kland 22
Colin 11
Suzanne 7
Richard 5
Featured Member
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 20085
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >
New Reply
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#123854 - 03/06/10 05:52 PM Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS
Daryl F Site Administrator Online   canadian
Site Administrator
20000+ Member
Registered: 07/12/00
Posts: 20085
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Here is the link to the study and discussion material for Lesson #11:

http://ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/10a/less11.html
_________________________
In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
#123874 - 03/07/10 12:15 PM Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS [Re: Daryl F]
Mountain Man Online   content
Charter Member
Active Member 2010

Most Active Member Last 30 Days
15000+ Member
Registered: 10/25/00
Posts: 15325
Loc: Southwest USA
Quote:
We understand righteousness in two ways. First, there is the imputed righteousness of Christ, which is what Jesus has done for us, the righteousness that covers us and that is our title to heaven. Second, there is the imparted righteousness of Christ, which is what He does in us, through the Holy Spirit, to mold us into His image. Thus understood, righteousness has two inseparable components, even though it's all really one righteousness--the righteousness of Christ, without which we would have no hope of salvation.

What is the state, nature, condition, constitution of imparted righteousness? How does it compare to the righteousness Jesus manifested while here in the flesh? Is it stained with sin as some suggest? Or, is it equally pure and undefiled?
Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#123918 - 03/08/10 01:44 PM Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS [Re: Mountain Man]
Rosangela Global Moderator Online   content
Global Moderator
4000+ Member
Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 4029
Loc: Brazil
Why aren't we saved by imparted righteousness?

The righteousness Jesus manifested while here in the flesh was meritorious. The righteousness we manifest isn't. Why?
Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#123921 - 03/08/10 02:29 PM Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS [Re: Rosangela]
Mountain Man Online   content
Charter Member
Active Member 2010

Most Active Member Last 30 Days
15000+ Member
Registered: 10/25/00
Posts: 15325
Loc: Southwest USA
Why aren't we saved without imparted righteous?

And, why do you believe Jesus' righteousness was meritorious? I've read where His shed blood is meritorious. For example:

"This is the will of God" concerning you, "even your sanctification." 1 Thessalonians 4:3. Is it your will also? Your sins may be as mountains before you; but if you humble your heart and confess your sins, trusting in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, He will forgive and will cleanse you from all unrighteousness. God demands of you entire conformity to His law. This law is the echo of His voice saying to you, Holier, yes, holier still. Desire the fullness of the grace of Christ. Let your heart be filled with an intense longing for His righteousness, the work of which God's word declares is peace, and its effect quietness and assurance forever. {AA 566.2}

As your soul yearns after God, you will find more and still more of the unsearchable riches of His grace. As you contemplate these riches you will come into possession of them and will reveal the merits of the Saviour's sacrifice, the protection of His righteousness, the fullness of His wisdom, and His power to present you before the Father "without spot, and blameless." 2 Peter 3:14. {AA 567.1}

But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {FW 100.1}
Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#123969 - 03/10/10 12:01 PM Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS [Re: Mountain Man]
Rosangela Global Moderator Online   content
Global Moderator
4000+ Member
Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 4029
Loc: Brazil
Quote:
Why aren't we saved without imparted righteous?

Because God doesn't save willfully disobedient people. OTOH, only perfect obedience can save, and ours isn't a perfect obedience.

Quote:
And, why do you believe Jesus' righteousness was meritorious?

This has to do with Covenant Theology.

Although Adam enjoyed God’s favor because he had no sin, yet he was to obey, if he would enjoy eternal life. Thus he must have:
1) not only a negative righteousness: he was not guilty of anything; but also
2) a positive righteousness: he must obey - overcome Satan - that he might inherit eternal life

When he sinned,
1) he became guilty of transgression, forfeited God’s favor and became subject to the penalty
2) he failed to obey positively, failed to overcome the devil, and thus forfeited eternal life.

Therefore, in the covenant of grace, the representative of humanity, the second Adam, must
1) by satisfying the penalty, clear the slate and reinstate us in God’s favor _ Adam’s original condition. (This is called Christ’s passive obedience - His death.)
2) accomplish the probationary assignment of overcoming the devil and presenting a perfect obedience, earning for us eternal life _ God’s promised reward. (This is called Christ’s active obedience - His life.)

There is an inexhaustible fund of perfect obedience accruing from His obedience. In heaven His merits, His self-denial and self-sacrifice, are treasured up as incense to be offered up with the prayers of His people. As the sinner's sincere, humble prayers ascend to the throne of God, Christ mingles with them the merits of His life of perfect obedience. Our prayers are made fragrant by this incense. . . . {HP 69.3}

Our liberty was procured by Christ, by his spotless, meritorious life and death.{RH, July 29, 1890 par. 8}
Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#123976 - 03/10/10 02:01 PM Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS [Re: Rosangela]
Mountain Man Online   content
Charter Member
Active Member 2010

Most Active Member Last 30 Days
15000+ Member
Registered: 10/25/00
Posts: 15325
Loc: Southwest USA
Rosangela, thank you for addressing my questions and comments. It looks to me as though you are firmly entrenched in the idea that the righteous results of abiding in Jesus is corrupt and contained with sin and selfishness and wholly unacceptable and displeasing to our heavenly Father.

What you haven't made clear yet is when and how you believe Jesus will correct this state of sin and sinfulness so that we can enjoy and experience "the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression." Ellen White makes it sound like this sweet experience has been available to everyone since the Fall. Indeed, she makes it sound like it is "imperative" otherwise they will not be in heaven. You, on the other hand, make it sound like it's not possible in this lifetime. Do you see my dilemma?
Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#123990 - 03/10/10 04:48 PM Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS [Re: Mountain Man]
Rosangela Global Moderator Online   content
Global Moderator
4000+ Member
Registered: 11/26/04
Posts: 4029
Loc: Brazil
Quote:
Rosangela, thank you for addressing my questions and comments. It looks to me as though you are firmly entrenched in the idea that the righteous results of abiding in Jesus is corrupt and contained with sin and selfishness and wholly unacceptable and displeasing to our heavenly Father.


Mike, what I believe is this:

But are good works of no real value? Is the sinner who commits sin every day with impunity, regarded of God with the same favor as the one who through faith in Christ tries to work in his integrity? The Scripture answers,"We are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." In His divine arrangement, through His unmerited favor, the Lord has ordained that good works shall be rewarded. We are accepted through Christ's merit alone; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of charity, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the merit of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. Our works in and of themselves have no merit. . . . We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed in the strength of our own sinful natures. {OHC 122.3}

So, without Christ's merit our good works are unacceptable to God. Why do you think they are unacceptable to God? And is it your contention that after probation closes they will be acceptable to God without Christ's merit?

Quote:
What you haven't made clear yet is when and how you believe Jesus will correct this state of sin and sinfulness so that we can enjoy and experience "the condition of sinlessness in which Adam lived before his transgression." Ellen White makes it sound like this sweet experience has been available to everyone since the Fall. Indeed, she makes it sound like it is "imperative" otherwise they will not be in heaven. You, on the other hand, make it sound like it's not possible in this lifetime. Do you see my dilemma?

Mike, I think "sinlessness" here means not committing acts of sin, and to me this is perfectly possible in this lifetime.
Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#124011 - 03/10/10 11:29 PM Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS [Re: Rosangela]
Mountain Man Online   content
Charter Member
Active Member 2010

Most Active Member Last 30 Days
15000+ Member
Registered: 10/25/00
Posts: 15325
Loc: Southwest USA
Rosangela, I believe that the righteous results of abiding in Jesus is the meritorious result of Jesus abiding in us, that the fruit of "humanity and divinity combined" is wholly acceptable to God, and that no matter when or where it happens such godliness and true holiness is the result of "Christ in you, the hope of glory". Eternity isn't long enough to make void the merits of His blood and righteousness. Eventually Jesus will cease mediating in the Most Holy Place, but He will never cease dwelling in the hearts and minds of those who love and serve Him.

Also, regarding Ellen's use of the word "sinlessness" in the passage I quoted above, do you really believe that it merely refers to sinless acts, that it doesn't also refer to "humanity and divinity combined" and possessing a Christlike nature, "a nature far above that which Adam forfeited by transgression"?
Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#124013 - 03/11/10 09:43 AM Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS [Re: Mountain Man]
Tom Online   content
Active Member 2010
13300+ Member
Registered: 08/11/04
Posts: 13671
Loc: Lawrence, Kansas
I think the questions I asked in the other thread come into play here. That is, what was man's problem, and how did God fix it?

The following has been helpful to me in thinking about this:

Quote:
He would make them (the wicked) happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will?

Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests?

Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. (GC 541-542)


This really gets at the issue of why the lost will be lost. It's all about character.

The character doesn't change at death. We need to have characters in harmony with God and the principles of His government, or we wouldn't be happy in heaven. Thinking about things in this terms begs the question: How does God prepare us for heaven? How to get from "me first" to agape?
_________________________
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
#124031 - 03/12/10 06:42 PM Re: Lesson #11 - The Fruit of the Spirit Is RIGHTEOUSNESS [Re: Mountain Man]
Colin Offline
Active Member 2010
Super Member
Registered: 11/03/05
Posts: 1438
Loc: E. Oregon, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Quote:
We understand righteousness in two ways. First, there is the imputed righteousness of Christ, which is what Jesus has done for us, the righteousness that covers us and that is our title to heaven. Second, there is the imparted righteousness of Christ, which is what He does in us, through the Holy Spirit, to mold us into His image. Thus understood, righteousness has two inseparable components, even though it's all really one righteousness--the righteousness of Christ, without which we would have no hope of salvation.

What is the state, nature, condition, constitution of imparted righteousness? How does it compare to the righteousness Jesus manifested while here in the flesh? Is it stained with sin as some suggest? Or, is it equally pure and undefiled?

Well - oh, happy Sabbath for just now..., and: a few Qs! smile

Why so anxious about imparted righteousness? The lesson is missing half of imputed righteousness, as it happens.

This is my tuppence worth: imparted R is Jesus character traits taught to us through his Spirit, by whom we also partake of the divine nature, and installed step by step into our characters, ie. lives, as we cooperate with Jesus in learning of him: called the sanctified life, it is neither meritorious in us nor stained by sin. Just like Jesus' perfectly righteous mind and character were untainted by his assumed sinful human flesh and he developed meritorious traits, so our walk with him in developing Christlike traits is untainted. "Corruption never rested" on him, and we learn of him.

As for our impurities, she also says that we need not retain a single sinful propensity and therefore we can and may reject all sinful inclinations which wait for translation/resurrection for being done away with. A study of Jesus' baptism of repentance, "fulfilling all righteousness", helps to clarify this as we follow his example there too, I've found.

The real problem in this lesson exerpt, is: "imputed R...is what Jesus has done for us." It is emphatically also what he does in us!! Unless righteousness is imputed into us, ie. the mind of Christ, imparted righteousness can't happen: without the renewed mind/new creation being part of imputed R, justification by faith, it cannot happen at all.

For documentation on this two-fold truth of imputed R, which lesson adamantly refuses to teach everytime it needs mentioning, see this document at the GC BRI, under "dynamics of justification" half way down, and "subjective...essential component": http://www.adventistbiblicalresearch.org/documents/Universal%20Justification.htm

Perfect obedience is what we want - with Jesus and by his power, but it actually can happen only if we are regenerated by justification by faith, as Steps to Christ also says. grin Rebirth 'delayed' till and made part of sanctification - even if only by default when the teaching doesn't specify - is a non-starter: sorry. frown Sanctification is no "rebirth" but only actually the transformation of character consequent of the imputed "mind of Christ".

So, imputed righteousness is mainly in us, not just pardon for us, and obedience is a clear condition of salvation, else faith would be both dead and unperfected.
Top Reply Quote Quick Reply Quick Quote
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5 >

Quick Reply:
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled




Forum Moderator:  asygo, Daryl F 
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
(Not Refreshing Properly)
U.S. Apology Read to Indians
by västergötland
Today at 04:09 PM
Where is the harm in liquor or drinking..?
by Suzanne
Today at 04:02 PM
A Healthy Prostate Gland
by Suzanne
Today at 03:25 PM
Lesson #10 - Redemption for JEW and GENTILE
by Mountain Man
Today at 02:08 PM
How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2
by Mountain Man
Today at 02:07 PM
Lesson #7 - Victory Over SIN
by Tom
Today at 01:15 PM
Lesson #9 - Freedom in CHRIST
by Tom
Today at 12:45 PM
Was Ellen White an exegete?
by Tom
Today at 12:35 PM
THE SCAPEGOAT QUESTION: RATZLAFF’S BIGGEST ANTI-SDA STRAWMAN
by Azenilto
Yesterday at 09:37 PM
Creativity in Condemnation and Indoctrination
by Azenilto
Yesterday at 09:27 PM
Nuts for Health
by Suzanne
Yesterday at 07:31 PM
Lesson #11 - The Election of GRACE
by Daryl F
Yesterday at 06:15 PM
What was nailed to the cross in Col 2:14?
by Tom
09/04/10 01:11 AM
Exercise: Miracle-Gro for the Brain
by Suzanne
09/01/10 03:48 PM
"line upon line, here a little, there a little"
by Mountain Man
08/31/10 08:26 PM
Lesson #3 - All Have SINNED
by Mountain Man
08/31/10 01:33 PM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
::A:: Seven Heads Study & The Last Pope
by His child
Yesterday at 09:28 PM
9/11 and it's connection with scripture.
by Mountain Man
08/28/10 03:37 PM
Have You Ever Attended A General Conference Quinquennial Session?
by Daryl F
08/13/10 09:34 PM
2010 General Conference Session Issues and Concerns Discussion Thread
by Bobryan
08/10/10 08:33 AM
Forum Announcements
Maritime Advent Believers OffLine
by Daryl F
08/10/10 10:23 AM
September
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30
Some Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
Another Campmeeting 2008 Picture in the Youth Tent
Maritime Conference Campmeeting 2008
Test Image
In Memory of Our Cat Toby and Our Dog Jesse

Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com
WELCOME!
© 2000-2010 Maritime Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.


"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!

Website Ranking