This is getting confusing. We have two comparisons here:

fighting evil/going along with it
serving God/fighting against Him

What I said was that the effort to fight evil is greater than the effort to go along with it.

But fighting evil, to me, is not the same as serving God. I think fighting evil is one of the things you sometimes do when you serve God (please Him).

Also, going along with evil is not the same as fighting against God (resisting the Holy Spirit). Fighting against God is one of the things you sometimes do when you go along with evil.

So, fighting evil and serving God are related, but not synonymous. The same is true of going along with evil and fighting God. The two pairs are separate.

So I believe that fighting against God is more difficult than serving God, but that fighting evil is more difficult than going along with it.

A person is converted from unbelief.



That's an interesting question. I've thought of it in terms of "Savior from sin," but given that I just said that one is converted from unbelief, and that the SOP tells us that "unbelief is the root of all sin," perhaps "Savior from unbelief" is an alternative. Did you have some alternative definition in mind?

Right, you said that serving God encompasses fighting evil, but much more than this. So serving God involves more effort than simply fighting evil.



Right, so fighting evil requires more effort than fighting against God (resisting the Holy Spirit).

Now you said, if I understood you correctly, that fighting God is not harder than serving God. Since going along with evil requires more effort than fighting against God (resisting the Holy Spirit), and serving God requires more effort than fighting Him, is cannot be the case (given your assumption that serving God is not more difficult than fighting Him) that it's easier to go along with evil than not, as this would be a logical contradiction.



Yes, but the pairs have the following points:

a.Serving God requires more effort than fighting evil (because fighting evil is only a part of what's involved in serving God)
b.Going along with evil requires more effort than fighting God - resisting the Holy Spirit (because resisting the Holy Spirit is only a part of what's involved to fight evil).

Therefore if it's easier to serve God than it is to fight against Him, it must be the case that it's easier to fight evil than to go along with it.

In terms of effort, from least to most, we have:

1.Fight evil.
2.Serve God.
3.Fight against God (resist the Holy Spirit)
4.Go along with evil.

This follows from your statement that it's easier to serve God than to fight against Him, and from the fact that serving God involves fighting evil, but "much more," and that going along with evil involves fighting God (resisting the Holy Spirit), but more than that (hence more effort).



I hope you can see the logical contradiction involved here. Hopefully I've made this clear.

Sounds like you are trying to prove that whatever you have just said is now truth. I beg to differ.

The devils believe and tremble. If all that was required was to be "saved from unbelief," I guess the demons will be saved. This concept from James, then, begs the question as to the context of Mrs. White's statements on the definitions of "belief" and "root of all sin," and certainly undermines the concept of being "saved from unbelief."

"Saved from sin" is what I want. Considering that unbelief is one of those sins, I want to be saved from it too. But "sin" is a broad category, of which "unbelief" is just one part.

It is possible to sin without having "unbelief." The very first sin in the universe was?...

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

More later.

"Believe" here is used in a different sense than in John 3:16, which speaks of the belief involved in saving faith. Do you disagree?



To be saved from unbelief would mean to believe, as in John 3:16. Do you think the devils believe in this sense? Or could James be using the word in a different sense, as in mental assent? What do you think the context of James 2:19 suggests?



Yes, considering the context of the given statements would be a good idea!

I couldn't find the quote I was looking for. The quote must be slightly different than what I'm remembering. I came across this, which is very similar:



Also the following:



The part in quotes is Ellen White. The preceding part is from the author, whose point and logic I agree with. He quotes her from Education, but doesn't give the page number.

I noticed a number of times she also wrote that selfishness is the root of all sin. That makes sense, since agape is the fulfillment of the law.



Well, that's the usual definition. I was seeing if Arnold had something else in mind. Given that unbelief is the root of sin, being saved from unbelief would lead to being saved from sin. To put it another way, righteousness is by faith, and faith is the same thing as belief (both from the same Greek word). Of course, "belief" should be understood in context, which is not mental assent (as in James 2:19) but saving faith (as in John 3:16, and countless other places).



Since righteousness is by faith, unrighteousness (which is transgression of the law, or sin) is by unbelief. Getting rid of the unbelief encompasses all sin. Put another way, whatsoever is not of faith is sin.



A sin of unbelief!

"Unbelief is the root of all sin."

That statement is not supported by inspiration.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

There are some other alternatives that I have heard, but I agree with what you said, given the proper definition of "belief/unbelief."

So let's say that "Savior from sin" and "Savior from unbelief" are equivalent. If I'm understanding you, your definition of a converted person is one who has a Savior from sin/unbelief.

If a person has a Savior from sin, how can he sin? If he's sinning, that means he needs a Savior; he doesn't have one. It's like saying that a person has been saved from drowning, while he is still drowning in the water. If one has been saved from sin, he has been separated from it.

Let's look at belief/unbelief. If one has been saved from unbelief, why would he choose to do that which he knows is wrong? Why would he sin against God? Such an act would be unbelief. Therefore, he hasn't been saved from it.

The other definitions I have heard of converted or saved can allow one to still sin. But if our definition is "having a Savior from sin," we cannot mix it with sin.

We are lost by default. We do not have to choose to be lost. On the other hand, we must consciously choose to be saved, to experience rebirth. And then we must continue to consciously choose to abide in Jesus and partake of the divine nature.

True, people must resist the wooing influence of the Holy Spirit. However, doing so does not change our default status. It is no easy matter to change our status. It requires extreme effort to experience rebirth, and it requires continued extreme effort to stay converted. It is easier to be lost than it is to be saved. Ellen White made this point crystal clear. Here is a sampling:

It is no easy matter to gain the priceless treasure of eternal life. {Mar 47.3}

The gaining of eternal life is no easy thing. {TMK 21.5}

It is difficult to depart from old customs and established ideas. {CT 392.1}

It is easier to learn evil than to eradicate it after it is learned. {CG 457.4}

It is easier to invite the enemy into your hearts than to dismiss him after he has the ground. {3T 325.3}

It is difficult to hold fast the beginning of our confidence firm unto the end; and the difficulty increases when there are hidden influences constantly at work to bring in another spirit, a counterworking element, on Satan's side of the question. {Mar 28.2}

In this time of special danger for the young, temptations surround them on every hand; and while it is easy to drift, the strongest effort is required in order to press against the current. {Ed 293.2}

It is difficult to arouse them to a sense of the shame and grievous nature of sin. {ML 146.3}

It is difficult to hold fast Christian integrity. {TMK 352.2}

Let self break in pieces before God. It is hard to do this; but we are warned to fall upon the Rock and be broken, else it will fall upon us, and grind us to powder. {HP 30.2}

Into the experience of all there come times of keen disappointment and utter discouragement--days when sorrow is the portion, and it is hard to believe that God is still the kind benefactor of His earth-born children; days when troubles harass the soul, till death seems preferable to life. It is then that many lose their hold on God and are brought into the slavery of doubt, the bondage of unbelief. {ML 328.2}

In many cases the moral powers seem deadened, and it is difficult to arouse them to a sense of the shame and grievous nature of sin; they slip easily into habits of prevarication, deceit, and often open lying. {CG 388.1}

We have trained ourselves to engage with earnestness and power in worldly business, until it is easy for the mind to take that turn. This is why Christians find a religious life so hard and a worldly life so easy. {2T 263.4}

To resist Satan's desires is no easy task. It demands a firm hold of the divine nature from beginning to end, or it cannot be done. {1SM 342.3}

It is easy for you to drop Christ out of your experience. {5T 586.3}

It is easy to rebel, easy to give battle before considering matters rationally, calmly, and settling whether there is anything to war against. {1T 527.1}

It is easy for the enemy to work through those who, themselves needing counsel at every step, undertake the guardianship of souls in their own strength, without having learned the lowliness of Christ. {AA 279.1}

Temptations surround them on every hand; and while it is easy work to float with the current, the strongest effort is required to press against the tide of evil. {4T 421.3}

The strongest evidence of man's fall from a higher state is the fact that it costs so much to return. The way of return can be gained only by hard fighting, inch by inch, hour by hour. In one moment, by a hasty, unguarded act, we may place ourselves in the power of evil; but it requires more than a moment to break the fetters and attain to a holier life. The purpose may be formed, the work begun; but its accomplishment will require toil, time, perseverance, patience, and sacrifice. {MH 452.2} [/quote]

Ellen White also had this to say about it:


Some people mistakenly apply this wonderful truth to believers who are living in known sin.