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"line upon line, here a little, there a little" #126376
07/17/10 01:28 PM
07/17/10 01:28 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline OP
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Here are two posts that illustrate a point of concern with hobby theology and private interpretations far too often encountered within fundamentalist adventism.


http://www.sdanet.org/archive/recent/0068.html

I agree with you that building our doctrines by piling up proof texts
regardless of their content is at least problematic. In fact, the very
reason we give for building our doctrines that way -- "line upon line, here
a little, there a little" -- is a good example of the very thing.
I have sometimes mentioned in Sabbath School classes or other discussions
with fellow members that the proof text from which we take that
instruction, i.e., Isa 28:10, in context seems to say the very opposite of
our familiar interpretation. Instead of God's direction to learn by taking
a little here and a little there, the context seems to show it instead as a
consequence that comes upon God's people (especially the priests and
prophets) who are drunk, careless, and refuse to hear His word. It is to
those who would *not* hear that the word of the Lord becomes "precept upon
precept, precept upon precept, line upon line, line upon line." See the
whole chapter, and especially Isaiah 28:11-13.
My New American Standard version has an interesting note about verses 10
and 13. Where we read "precept upon precept... line upon line..." the
original language has a short, repetitive sound which resembles baby talk,
as if those people have failed to heed God's word, and as a result their
understanding and their judgment has become meaningless babbling. Today we
might say that when they refused to hear, God made his word to be just
"blah-blah-blah" to them.
So I don't use that passage as direction for how to study the Bible. But
neither have I ever seem to get anywhere with my friends about it. I've
felt like my comments have just sailed past my friends' attention without
hitting anything.

http://www.sdanet.org/archive/recent/0092.html

I am tempted to blame Ellen White for our over-use of the Isaiah text,
but I have recently found it used also by Charismatic and independent
conservative churches, so I am probably wrong. Her use no doubt
popularised it among us. It is, of course, an excellent verse for
biblicists of any kind. The phrase "to the law and the testimony" is
also problematic, as it seems to be a criticism directed to Isaiah's
opponents, who will not accept any message unless it is already written
in Scripture. It may, in context, be a denial of prophetic preaching
rather than a defense of Scriptural authority.
Despite our pride in having a 'real' prophet, I have found that in
general most SDAs are very wary of the idea - or, more correctly, the
practice - of God still speaking. We tend, apart from our position on
Ellen White, to be more comfortable with deism than with the Hebrew idea
of a God who is always ready to communicate directly. Perhaps that is
why we like to apply the text from Joel solely to Ellen White rather
than looking forward to (or even anticipating) God pouring out his gifts
on all and sundry. Having so many prophets and visions just would not
find any place to fit in the usual SDA program.
Just for interest, the words from Isaiah are "tsaw latsaw, tsaw latsaw,
qaw laqaw, qaw laqaw, ze'eyr sham, ze'eyr sham". Tsaw is apparently
meaningless in Hebrew; qaw means 'measuring line'; and ze'eyr is assumed
to mean 'little', but it is used only one other time, in Job 36:2 where
it means 'a short time'; and sham is 'there' or 'then'. That Isaiah
goes on to speak of stammering and of speaking in foreign languages
makes it very unlikely that these words were meant to convey anything as
important as a major hermeneutic rule.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little" [Re: vastergotland] #126392
07/19/10 06:57 AM
07/19/10 06:57 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: västergötland
We tend, apart from our position on Ellen White, to be more comfortable with deism than with the Hebrew idea of a God who is always ready to communicate directly. Perhaps that is why we like to apply the text from Joel solely to Ellen White rather than looking forward to (or even anticipating) God pouring out his gifts on all and sundry.

I share the concern. Many seem to think that God speaking to one person who died over a hundred years ago counts as us having the Spirit of prophecy. If so, we could just look for one person who was obedient, and claim that we all keep the commandments of God.

God still speaks. The problem is that few listen.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little" [Re: asygo] #126402
07/19/10 04:17 PM
07/19/10 04:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Is there a prophet or prophetess nowadays whom God is speaking through within the SDA Church? I mean someone whom God has especially endowed with the gift/spirit of prophecy?

Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little" [Re: Mountain Man] #126411
07/19/10 05:31 PM
07/19/10 05:31 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Is it possible for a person to have the gift of prophesy without this being public knowledge?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little" [Re: Tom] #126416
07/19/10 06:13 PM
07/19/10 06:13 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline OP
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Mike, unless the answer is yes, would that not suggest that the Spirit has abandoned the SDA church? Where ever the Spirit is, the Church is and there the gifts of the Spirit give fruit of the Spirit. And prophecy is given as an important gift of the Spirit to the Church. As far as the SDA church is part of the Church, this must also be true within this denomination.

Tom, even though we usually only hear about the prophets who prophecy to the king (GC president?), these high profile prophets would hardly have been in majority during any time would they?


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little" [Re: vastergotland] #126419
07/19/10 08:21 PM
07/19/10 08:21 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thomas, do you believe God is speaking through someone nowadays whom He has gifted with the spirit of prophecy (in the same way and sense He gifted the apostle John)?

Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little" [Re: Mountain Man] #126420
07/19/10 08:23 PM
07/19/10 08:23 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Prophesy and prophecy - what's the difference?

Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little" [Re: Mountain Man] #126423
07/19/10 08:34 PM
07/19/10 08:34 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
“Prophecy,” the noun, (pronounced “PROF-a-see”) is a prediction. The verb “to prophesy” (pronounced “PROF-a-sigh”) means to predict something. When a prophet prophesies he or she utters prophecies.

(http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/prophecy.html)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little" [Re: Mountain Man] #126424
07/19/10 08:39 PM
07/19/10 08:39 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline OP
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
Mike, most prophets have not been given the task of bringing apocalyptic prophecy to the people. We only know of 3 or 4 apocalyptic prophets, while even in the bible, other named prophets count in the dozens. Not to mention all the prophets we only hear about in group references, like Elishas prophet students, or the prophets in the Acts churches.

Prophesy is a verb and Prophecy is a noun, according to Merriam-Webster: http://www.merriam-webster.com/netdict/prophesy


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
Re: "line upon line, here a little, there a little" [Re: vastergotland] #126428
07/19/10 09:07 PM
07/19/10 09:07 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Thank you both for the definitions.

Thomas, I agree. But do you know of anyone today through whom God is speaking to Christendom, someone whose words are inspired and authoritative (like Moses, Elijah, Peter, Paul, John, etc)?

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