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Christ Justified #126619
07/31/10 12:19 PM
07/31/10 12:19 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
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I was studying the scripture on the mystery of God, when something jumped out at me. I was thinking on the nature of Christ and how He could be flesh yet already be cleased of sin and dead to sin, when I came across this verse.



1 Timothy 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.


So Christ was justified, just as we are justified, and He went through the same process that we must go through in this. I am amazed that Jesus could be flesh like us while still wholly divine, and go through the exact same trials, tribulations, temptations and even be justified, just like every man and woman. Christ truly is our Saviour and example, and we need to focus on Jesus, His life, the process He went through, His triumph over sin and temptation, and coming close in a intimate relationship with Him.

Last edited by Richard; 07/31/10 12:22 PM.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Rick H] #126620
07/31/10 02:46 PM
07/31/10 02:46 PM
asygo  Offline
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I don't think He was justified in the same way we are. Whose character will stand in the place of His character?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Rick H] #126625
08/03/10 03:09 AM
08/03/10 03:09 AM
C
Colin  Offline
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Yes, he was daily justified in the Spirit like we are, yet there were 4 differences between him and us, one of which you have already mentioned. But, first...

Quote:
And He said to them all, "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. (Luke 9:23)

Jesus himself did just this, too, as our Example, for the two covenants are concurrent and he did only what we have to do to be spiritually alive by faith: well known that we have to choose between the basically sinful human mind we have and the mind of Christ - i.e. Holy Spirit of Christ, every moment of every day, starting when we wake, etc. He too had that choice, and was born from above, daily: that he took humanity, and wasn't naturally human, allowed him to pioneer righteousness by faith in reality, born with the Spirit, not just of the Spirit. That's a mystery Richard has quoted from in 1 Tim 3:16.

Now, the differences - obvious when you think about it. He was & is divine, too; he couldn't fall into temptation if he were to be the world's Saviour (what, seriously, would have happened had he sinned?) - we 'may' fall; he learned righteousness by not falling into temptation - we learn from falling into temptation; he never fell, of course....

Thus, he is our great High Priest, but Saviour first!

Last edited by Colin; 08/03/10 03:12 AM.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Colin] #126636
08/04/10 04:43 PM
08/04/10 04:43 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Does "justified in the Spirit" mean Jesus was justified serving as our Saviour and Substitute?

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Mountain Man] #126656
08/08/10 11:40 PM
08/08/10 11:40 PM
C
Colin  Offline
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What do you mean? smile

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Colin] #126657
08/09/10 11:58 AM
08/09/10 11:58 AM
Daryl  Offline

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Adam Clarke's Bible Commentary says the following:
Quote:

Justified in the Spirit - By the miracles which were wrought by the apostle in and through the name of Jesus; as well as by his resurrection from the dead, through the energy of the Holy Ghost, by which he was proved to be the Son of God with power. Christ was, justified from all the calumnies of the Jews, who crucified him as an impostor. All these miracles, being wrought by the power of God, were a full proof of his innocence; for, had he not been what he professed to be, God would not have borne such a decisive testimony to his Messiahship.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Daryl] #126658
08/09/10 12:39 PM
08/09/10 12:39 PM
Daryl  Offline

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The SDA Bible Commentary says:
Quote:

Justified. Gr. dikaiooµ, “to be declared righteous.” For a discussion of Christ as the “Just One” see on Acts 7:52. Christ was declared righteous because He was sinless (see on John 8:46). Men are declared righteous when they seek His imputed righteousness (see on Rom. 4:25).

In the Spirit. Or, “in spirit,” that is, with respect to spiritual things. The Saviour faced life with a spirit of complete dedication to the will of God, and it was this attitude that kept Him from sin. Christ came to be man’s substitute, and it was His record as a human being that proved God altogether just in His requirements and in His judgements.
Nichol, Francis D., The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, (Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald Publishing Association) 1978.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Daryl] #126669
08/09/10 11:02 PM
08/09/10 11:02 PM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
"Justified" means "set right." A page of type is justified when the type is "set right."


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #126695
08/10/10 04:05 PM
08/10/10 04:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Justified also includes proving one has the right to do or to be something.

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Mountain Man] #126707
08/10/10 07:42 PM
08/10/10 07:42 PM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Justified also includes proving one has the right to do or to be something.


This is still "setting right." In this case, it would be "setting right" one's reputation (or something similar).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #126723
08/11/10 02:20 PM
08/11/10 02:20 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Okay. Thank you. So, in the passage under discussion, the Father feels obligated to justify sending Jesus to serve as our Savior and Substitute.

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Colin] #127014
08/28/10 02:26 PM
08/28/10 02:26 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
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Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Colin
Yes, he was daily justified in the Spirit like we are, yet there were 4 differences between him and us, one of which you have already mentioned. But, first...

Quote:
And He said to them all, "If any man will come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. (Luke 9:23)

Jesus himself did just this, too, as our Example, for the two covenants are concurrent and he did only what we have to do to be spiritually alive by faith: well known that we have to choose between the basically sinful human mind we have and the mind of Christ - i.e. Holy Spirit of Christ, every moment of every day, starting when we wake, etc. He too had that choice, and was born from above, daily: that he took humanity, and wasn't naturally human, allowed him to pioneer righteousness by faith in reality, born with the Spirit, not just of the Spirit. That's a mystery Richard has quoted from in 1 Tim 3:16.

Now, the differences - obvious when you think about it. He was & is divine, too; he couldn't fall into temptation if he were to be the world's Saviour (what, seriously, would have happened had he sinned?) - we 'may' fall; he learned righteousness by not falling into temptation - we learn from falling into temptation; he never fell, of course....

Thus, he is our great High Priest, but Saviour first!
Amen!

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: asygo] #132862
04/23/11 12:21 PM
04/23/11 12:21 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
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Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
I don't think He was justified in the same way we are. Whose character will stand in the place of His character?


I found the answer from a unexpected source.... It came like a light bulb going off in our heads as one of the young ladies gave us the following to our surprise as we pondered the question trying to understand at our 'round table' of scholars at church.

Matthew 3:15
Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

Last edited by Rick H; 04/23/11 12:24 PM.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Rick H] #132913
04/25/11 04:32 PM
04/25/11 04:32 PM
asygo  Offline
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How does that answer the question? Whose character will stand in the place of His character?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: asygo] #132932
04/25/11 10:12 PM
04/25/11 10:12 PM
C
Colin  Offline
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E. Oregon, USA
No-one, since his character is meritorious and accepted by the Father. grin

It answers the question, given that fulfilling all righteousness involves at least not consenting to sin but submitting to the Holy Spirit, in order to qualify as Saviour at all. As I see that verse answering the question, by qualifying as our Saviour Jesus also established himself as our example in dying daily to self and sin - sin in his assumed flesh, which is justification by faith, too. Luke 9:23.

I await to read Rick's interpretation... wink grin

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Colin] #132948
04/26/11 01:48 PM
04/26/11 01:48 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
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Florida, USA
Yes, Jesus sets Himself as our example. As He is fully man as well as fully divine, He has to follow the process for man, and being Justified is one of them. John the Baptist through the Spirit, saw who Jesus was and resisted as he felt unworthy, but Jesus made him understand telling him directly “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John the Baptist, knowing who Christ was and understanding the reason, consented.

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Rick H] #132955
04/26/11 08:22 PM
04/26/11 08:22 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rick H
So Christ was justified, just as we are justified, and He went through the same process that we must go through in this.

Originally Posted By: asygo
I don't think He was justified in the same way we are. Whose character will stand in the place of His character?

Originally Posted By: Rick H
I found the answer from a unexpected source.... It came like a light bulb going off in our heads as one of the young ladies gave us the following to our surprise as we pondered the question trying to understand at our 'round table' of scholars at church.

Matthew 3:15
Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.

Originally Posted By: Colin
No-one, since his character is meritorious and accepted by the Father. grin

It answers the question, given that fulfilling all righteousness involves at least not consenting to sin but submitting to the Holy Spirit, in order to qualify as Saviour at all. As I see that verse answering the question, by qualifying as our Saviour Jesus also established himself as our example in dying daily to self and sin - sin in his assumed flesh, which is justification by faith, too. Luke 9:23.

Originally Posted By: Rick H
Yes, Jesus sets Himself as our example. As He is fully man as well as fully divine, He has to follow the process for man, and being Justified is one of them.

Jesus was justified by "fulfilling all righteousness." Hence, His character was meritorious and acceptable to God as-is, needing neither substitute nor external righteousness.

But that is not OUR process of justification. We are not justified because WE fulfill all righteousness. On the contrary, our righteousnesses are filthy rags. We are justified be receiving, not fulfilling, righteousness. We need an external righteousness - one from outside of ourselves - from our Substitute.

So, while Jesus was justified by fulfilling the requirements of the law, we are justified by faith, apart from the requirements of the law.

Furthermore, should we reach the point where we cease from every form of sin, when we no longer fall short of God's glory, we will still need Christ's imputed righteousness.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: asygo] #132959
04/26/11 09:48 PM
04/26/11 09:48 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Jesus was not justified by His own righteousness, but by the righteousness of God. He was righteous by faith.

A couple of quotes.

Quote:
If He had come into the world as He was in heaven, being God, manifesting Himself as He was there and God being with Him, His name would not have been "God with us," for He would not then have been ourselves. But He emptied Himself. He Himself was not manifested in the world. For it is written: "No man knoweth the Son but the Father"--not simply no man, but no one. No one knoweth the Son but the Father. "Neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him." It is not written, No man knoweth the Son but the Father and he to whom the Father will reveal Him. No. No man knoweth the Son at all, but the Father. And the Father does not reveal the Son in the world, but the Son reveals the Father. Christ is not the revelation of Himself. He is the revelation of the Father to the world and in the world and to men.(A. T. Jones Sermon #15, 1895 GCB)


Quote:
I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea thy law is within my heart. I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips, O Lord, thou knowest. I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation...(Hebrews 10)


Quote:
In Jesus Christ as He was in sinful flesh, God has demonstrated before the universe that He can so take possession of sinful flesh as to manifest His own presence, His power, and His glory, instead of sin manifesting itself. And all that the Son asks of any man in order to accomplish this in Him is that the man will let the Lord have Him as the Lord Jesus did.

Jesus said, "I will put my trust in Him." And in that trust Christ brought to every one the divine faith by which we can put our trust in Him. And when we do so separate from the world and put our sole trust in Him, then God will so take us and so use us that our sinful selves shall not appear to influence or affect anybody, but God will manifest His righteous self, His glory, before men, in spite of all ourselves and our sinfulness. That is the truth. And that is the mystery of God, "Christ in you, the hope of glory." God manifest in sinful flesh.(Jones, ibid.)


I didn't find the best ones, but these are good enough to make the point.

If Christ has simply manifest His own righteousness, that would not help us, because we have no righteousness of our own that could be manifest. But Christ emptied Himself, and chose to do God's will, that God's righteousness might be manifest in Him, and that's something we can do. As Christ was righteous by faith, and that righteousness was not His own righteousness, but that of Another, so also we can be righteous by faith.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #132960
04/26/11 09:52 PM
04/26/11 09:52 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Rick
I found the answer from a unexpected source.... It came like a light bulb going off in our heads as one of the young ladies gave us the following to our surprise as we pondered the question trying to understand at our 'round table' of scholars at church.

Matthew 3:15
Jesus replied, “Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.” Then John consented.


This is a great point! The SOP, in discussing this, says that Christ took the steps of repentance. Now Christ had no sin of His own to repent of, but He took our sins upon Him.

An interesting thought is that Christ had both sin which was not His own, and righteousness which was not His own. Of course, the sin upon Him was ours, not His, as He was sinless, but also the righteousness manifest in His life was not His own inherent righteousness, but that of the Father, which He laid hold of by faith.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #132962
04/26/11 10:01 PM
04/26/11 10:01 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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If Christ was not righteous by His own righteousness, He has no righteousness to justify us.

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Rosangela] #132964
04/26/11 10:41 PM
04/26/11 10:41 PM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
If Christ was not righteous by His own righteousness, He has no righteousness to justify us.


This would only follow if:

1.It is Christ alone who can justify us.
2.It is not possible for Christ to justify us by righteousness not His own.

Christ had a righteousness of His own, because Christ is God. But Christ did not overcome by means of His own righteousness, but by the righteousness of His Father, which He received by faith. This is well explained by the A. T. Jones statement, as well as their being many similar statements in the SOP, and also the Scriptures which Jones cited.

The SOP explains many times that Christ did not overcome by His own power, but by the power of God, which He laid hold of by faith. This is the same principle that Jones is explaining.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #132970
04/27/11 01:37 AM
04/27/11 01:37 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Brazil
Quote:
This would only follow if:

1.It is Christ alone who can justify us.
2.It is not possible for Christ to justify us by righteousness not His own.

Let's take just #2. The righteousness which justifies us is, and must be, a human righteousness - a perfect human character.

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #132972
04/27/11 02:56 AM
04/27/11 02:56 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Jesus was not justified by His own righteousness, but by the righteousness of God.

Are you saying that Jesus needed imputed righteousness from God? And/or that God's character stands in the place of Christ's character?

Quote:
If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned. {SC 62.2}

That's how justification works for us. Is that how you envision Jesus was justified?

Originally Posted By: Tom
He was righteous by faith.

He lived righteously by faith in God? Sure.

He had to have faith in someone else's righteousness to count as His own? No.

Originally Posted By: Tom
If Christ has simply manifest His own righteousness, that would not help us, because we have no righteousness of our own that could be manifest.

He did not come to do what we could do for ourselves. He did what we cannot. So that we can have what we do not deserve. He righteousness is given (neither earned nor duplicated) to us that we might be given (neither earned nor duplicated) life.

Quote:
2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

What is justification by faith? It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself. When men see their own nothingness, they are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ. {FLB 111.2}

He came to our world and took our sins upon his own divine soul, that we might receive his imputed righteousness. He was condemned for our sins, in which he had no share, that we might be justified by his righteousness, in which we had no share. {RH, March 21, 1893 par. 6}

The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law, and when those who claim to be children of God become Christlike in character, they will be obedient to God's commandments. Then the Lord can trust them to be of the number who shall compose the family of heaven. Clothed in the glorious apparel of Christ's righteousness, they have a place at the King's feast. {COL 315.1}


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: asygo] #133007
04/28/11 02:26 AM
04/28/11 02:26 AM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:
R:If Christ was not righteous by His own righteousness, He has no righteousness to justify us.

T:This would only follow if:

1.It is Christ alone who can justify us.
2.It is not possible for Christ to justify us by righteousness not His own.

R:Let's take just #2. The righteousness which justifies us is, and must be, a human righteousness - a perfect human character.


You made the point that Christ was not righteous by His own righteousness, then He has no righteousness to justify us. That's not a valid argument. Christ could have righteousness not His own, and justify us with that.

Regarding the human righteousness which Christ had, that was a righteousness whose source of origin was God. Christ (in His humanity) was righteous by faith.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #133008
04/28/11 02:42 AM
04/28/11 02:42 AM
Tom  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
T:Jesus was not justified by His own righteousness, but by the righteousness of God.

a:Are you saying that Jesus needed imputed righteousness from God?


Jesus never sinned. I think that should answer the question.

Quote:
And/or that God's character stands in the place of Christ's character?


Why would this be necessary? I don't know why you're asking this. I didn't say anything along these lines.

I quoted at some length from Jones. It seems to me that should have made my point clear.

Quote:

If you give yourself to Him, and accept Him as your Saviour, then, sinful as your life may have been, for His sake you are accounted righteous. Christ's character stands in place of your character, and you are accepted before God just as if you had not sinned. {SC 62.2}

That's how justification works for us. Is that how you envision Jesus was justified?


This is one statement. She wrote many statements regarding how we are justified. To take just one statement, and say that this is how we are justified isn't adequate.

Again, if you read what I wrote, and what I quoted from Jones, it should be clear what point I was making.

Quote:
T:He was righteous by faith.

a:He lived righteously by faith in God? Sure.

He had to have faith in someone else's righteousness to count as His own? No.


Nothing like this was discussed in what I either said or quoted.

Quote:
T:If Christ has simply manifest His own righteousness, that would not help us, because we have no righteousness of our own that could be manifest.

a:He did not come to do what we could do for ourselves. He did what we cannot.


Christ, in taking sinful flesh, emptied Himself, so that the will of God could be manifest in that sinful flesh. In so doing, He made it possible for us to do the same, by emptying ourselves as He emptied Himself. This was the point of Jones' sermon, was it not?

Quote:
So that we can have what we do not deserve. He righteousness is given (neither earned nor duplicated) to us that we might be given (neither earned nor duplicated) life.


I'm not sure quite what you're saying here. I certainly agree that we deserve nothing good, either righteousness nor eternal life, if that's your point.

Quote:

2 Peter 1:1
Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:

What is justification by faith? It is the work of God in laying the glory of man in the dust, and doing for man that which it is not in his power to do for himself. When men see their own nothingness, they are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ. {FLB 111.2}


This is an excellent quote. I believe it's in reference to the 1888 message.

Quote:
He came to our world and took our sins upon his own divine soul, that we might receive his imputed righteousness. He was condemned for our sins, in which he had no share, that we might be justified by his righteousness, in which we had no share. {RH, March 21, 1893 par. 6}


This is as well. She was reacting to Jones and Waggoner's preaching, and expressing the thought in her own words.

Quote:
The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law, and when those who claim to be children of God become Christlike in character, they will be obedient to God's commandments. Then the Lord can trust them to be of the number who shall compose the family of heaven. Clothed in the glorious apparel of Christ's righteousness, they have a place at the King's feast. {COL 315.1}


This is excellent as well. We see that being clothed in the apparel of Christ's righteousness involves being Christlike in character, and obedient to God's commandments.

This is a very nice collection of quotes. I particularly liked this point:

Quote:
When men see their own nothingness, they are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ.


Amen to that!


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #133022
04/28/11 03:22 PM
04/28/11 03:22 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Quote:
You made the point that Christ was not righteous by His own righteousness, then He has no righteousness to justify us. That's not a valid argument. Christ could have righteousness not His own, and justify us with that.

Regarding the human righteousness which Christ had, that was a righteousness whose source of origin was God. Christ (in His humanity) was righteous by faith.

I'm not speaking about the source of righteousness, but of the righteousness itself. The righteousness which justifies us, and which is our title to heaven, is a perfect life - a perfect human character. Christ formed a perfect human character, and when we are justified, His character stands in place of our character. So, Christ had a perfect character to present to God, we don't. Therefore, the sense in which He was justified cannot be the same sense in which we are justified, as Arnold correctly pointed out.

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Rosangela] #133026
04/28/11 06:33 PM
04/28/11 06:33 PM
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Justification isn't just pardon, since it is also - for us - regeneration, and - for Jesus - dying daily to sin in receiving the Spirit without sinning in the process (Lk 9:23). Jesus was conceived by and born with the Holy Spirit indwelling him - in that he is different to us (there are four differences: other 3 r: he is God's begotten Son; he never sinned, learning righeousness instead; he grew in grace without falling): he chose the Spirit's leading throughout his life, by believing in his Father's love and will, etc.

Receiving the Spirit from his Father, with loud crying and tears in fear of him who can save from death (Heb 5:7), he built his own righteousness despite the sinful, degenerate human flesh he'd taken deliberately to save us all from it, for he defeated & condemned sin in the flesh (Rom 8:3). That flesh, our flesh, that was itself condemned for being sinful; hence, it was the item due execution, under obligation or condemnation of death, which was nailed to the tree (Col 2:14).

Jesus was justified - received the Spirit afresh daily - exactly as we are justified by faith, but his righteous he produced himself as he walked in the Spirit, by faith.

...and, no, Tom, he couldn't give us someone's else's righteousness to save us since he alone could indeed save us by his death for sin, so only his righteousness, developed and obtained in the Devil's playground at the risk of infinite loss should he have sinned at all, was suitable for saving us. It alone was approvable by the Father, after the resurrection and meeting Mary, according to the everlasting covenant under which the Father would redeem mankind through individual faith by the graceous, redemptive action of his Son.

Only Christ could be Saviour, and only by his own righteousness forged in sinful human flesh, by faith in the power of God to save. Amen. smile

Last edited by Colin; 04/28/11 06:52 PM.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Colin] #133038
04/29/11 02:12 PM
04/29/11 02:12 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Quote:
dying daily to sin in receiving the Spirit without sinning in the process (Lk 9:23)

Dying daily to sin seems like sanctification, not justification.
Justification is pardon and regeneration, and Jesus didn't need either of them.

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Rosangela] #133054
04/30/11 12:42 AM
04/30/11 12:42 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
dying daily to sin in receiving the Spirit without sinning in the process (Lk 9:23)

Dying daily to sin seems like sanctification, not justification.
Justification is pardon and regeneration, and Jesus didn't need either of them.

Because Jesus did not need pardon or regeneration, His justification was not like ours. However, there is a part of justification that He fully participated in:
Quote:
James 2:24
You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: asygo] #133059
04/30/11 05:03 AM
04/30/11 05:03 AM
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Dying daily... grin

No, it's justification, for it is then we daily receive the Spirit, remember. wink

Jesus had the same daily choice we have: follow our sinful mind or opt for the Spirit (the pragmatic side of the two covenants truth). Yes, our church was unanimous on that, regarding Jesus, for 100 years.

For Jesus, daily opting perfectly for the Spirit instead of his own will (Lk 9:23), receiving the Spirit so that he could live righteously meant, by definition, that his assumed sinful mind was perfectly regenerated.

This isn't generally discussed by our scholars, but Jesus did fulfill all righteousness, after all, didn't he. smile

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Colin] #133060
04/30/11 05:26 AM
04/30/11 05:26 AM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:
T:You made the point that Christ was not righteous by His own righteousness, then He has no righteousness to justify us. That's not a valid argument. Christ could have righteousness not His own, and justify us with that.

Regarding the human righteousness which Christ had, that was a righteousness whose source of origin was God. Christ (in His humanity) was righteous by faith.

R:I'm not speaking about the source of righteousness, but of the righteousness itself. The righteousness which justifies us, and which is our title to heaven, is a perfect life - a perfect human character. Christ formed a perfect human character, and when we are justified, His character stands in place of our character. So, Christ had a perfect character to present to God, we don't. Therefore, the sense in which He was justified cannot be the same sense in which we are justified, as Arnold correctly pointed out.


It doesn't seem to me that either you or Arnold are reading or dealing with the same things that I am. I quoted Jones, and made statements, and both of you are speaking of things different than I either said or quoted.

What I said is that Christ was righteous by faith.

Jones point was that Christ emptied Himself, and that while He was perfect and righteous in Himself, had He lived by that righteousness, and not emptied Himself, that would have been life for Him, but death for us.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #133061
04/30/11 05:35 AM
04/30/11 05:35 AM
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Regarding "regeneration," from Webster's:

Quote:
Definition of REGENERATION
1: an act or the process of regenerating : the state of being regenerated
2: spiritual renewal or revival
3: renewal or restoration of a body, bodily part, or biological system (as a forest) after injury or as a normal process
4: utilization by special devices of heat or other products that would ordinarily be lost


1) doesn't help, since it's just using the same word in the definition.
3) is dealing with bodily regeneration, and 4) doesn't apply.

That leaves us with 2). Did Christ need spiritual renewal or revival? From reading the psalms, that would certainly seem to be the case.

Now regeneration may imply a committing sin, and certainly that does not apply to Christ, but renewal or restoration of the spirit would certainly seem to, simply by virtue of being a human being and growing tired.

Christ's experience as a human being much more similar to ours than many feel, a point which Ellen White made many times. Of course, Christ never sinned, but He took our sinful nature, and took our sins upon Him. Jones, Waggoner, and Ellen White (as well as others of the time, notably Prescott), emphasized these points in great detail, making the point that Christ was closer to us than we can imagine.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Rosangela] #133073
04/30/11 01:09 PM
04/30/11 01:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Jesus' righteousness stands in place of our pardoned sins so that there is no absence (void, vacuum, vacancy). God sees us as though we were righteous rather than sinful. This is justification. Jesus did not need justification for the simple reason He never sinned.

Sanctification, on the other hand, is real righteousness, the righteousness we experience while abiding in Jesus. It does not require pardon or substitution. It is totally acceptable and pleasing in the sight of God. This is the righteousness Jesus experienced while here in the flesh. It is this righteousness God imputes to us in place of pardoned sins. It is not imputed as a substitution for the righteousness we experience while abiding in Jesus.

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Mountain Man] #133091
05/01/11 02:09 AM
05/01/11 02:09 AM
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Now we've got up to three topics in one thread! grin wink

Shall I do first last, or last first? Ummm, pun intended. smile

...last first. grin

Palmdale Conf. consensus statement, GC and Australasian (SPD, today)leadership, published in the Adventist Review (as it is now), May 27 1976, in its first sentence:
Quote:
We agree that when the words "righteousness" and "faith" are connected (by "of", "by", etc.) in Scripture, reference is to the experience of justification by faith.

Justification by faith includes spiritual rebirth, ala Jn 3:5 - spiritual experience by faith: justification qualifies us for heaven with "real righteousness" - receiving the Holy Spirit with the robe of Christ's righteousness, renewing our mind. Sanctification is merely actively experiencing justification: choices and behaviour,...developing Christlike character with imparted righteousness. smile

Lk 9:23 is Jesus saying he died to the sin in his assumed human flesh and mind by submitting to his Father's Spirit, all without sinning, so our imperfect experience leading to receiving the Spirit didn't apply to him, yet he daily submitted to the Spirit of his Father as he fulfilled all righteousness. We also experience all his righteousness, imputed and imparted - both are an experience; more precisely, the latter is a clear way of saying that "imputed righteousness" is also an experience, from the beginning of the walk of faith and the living reality of that walk.

Justification by faith is by no means forensic only!! smile

...to be continued/...

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #133092
05/01/11 02:36 AM
05/01/11 02:36 AM
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Quote:
That leaves us with 2). Did Christ need spiritual renewal or revival? From reading the psalms, that would certainly seem to be the case.

Yes, "the mind of Christ" is in fact the renewing of the sinful mind of our sinful nature, but - for Jesus - in the perfectly righteous lifestyle of our Lord and Saviour.

Having reviewed this entire thread..., I've spotted the confusion over Jesus and what Tom said. Jesus "justified in the Spirit" is separate to Jesus' righteous character: that's what the Scriptures say, and that's what we need to distinguish in our own lives, too.

Righteousness by faith is the experience of justification by faith: pardon and regeneration, and living the new life unto God. Jesus, the Word made flesh, was justified in his humanity by the perfect daily submission to his Father's "Spirit in the fulness of the Godhead". This is separate to his meritorious character, all his own - meritorious since human yet in harmony with God's will.

All of us, now, remember Rev 19:8, where the righteousness imparted to the saints is personalised by them as their own: "the righteous deeds of the saints." Equally, that righteousness, imparted by Christ to his saints to be made their own, in his name, was his own in the first place. smile

Christ followed his Father's will, as do we by exactly the same Spirit in human experience, but Christ's character was his very own, personal righteousness, in harmony with God's will. True, covenantal relationship means perfect, personalised righteous character, by use of the renewed mind of justification. grin Amen

Last edited by Colin; 05/01/11 03:13 AM.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Colin] #133104
05/01/11 05:15 AM
05/01/11 05:15 AM
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Originally Posted By: Colin
Sanctification is merely actively experiencing justification.


Agreed! Well stated.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #133106
05/01/11 01:30 PM
05/01/11 01:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: Colin
Sanctification is merely actively experiencing justification.

Agreed! Well stated.

In order to experience justification we must first sin. Jesus and unfallen beings do not require justification. God must legally justify forgiving penitent sinners. Why? Because law and justice require capital punishment for sin - not pardon and salvation. Justification establishes our innocence. It enables us to be found "not guilty".

Sanctification is what empowers us to retain and maintain the rights and privileges of justification. But, God forbid, it does not establish or add to our innocence or "not guilty" standing. That is, the righteousness we experience while abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature in no way effects or establishes or adds to our innocence or "not guilty" standing.

Ellen wrote, "But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins, or neglecting known duties. God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {1SM 366.1}

Justification is purely imputed; whereas, sanctification is purely imparted. In form and function they are separate aspects of salvation. One does not add to or subtract from the other. Each stands as an independent aspect of the plan of salvation. Justification does not add to or subtract from our righteousness and sanctification does not add to or subtract from our innocence or "not guilty" standing. Justification is forever unchanging, whereas sanctification is forever changing.

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Mountain Man] #133129
05/02/11 05:59 PM
05/02/11 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: Colin
Sanctification is merely actively experiencing justification.

Agreed! Well stated.

In order to experience justification we must first sin. Jesus and unfallen beings do not require justification. God must legally justify forgiving penitent sinners....<snip>

Now, wait...: two things were said about Jesus' life, before and after he died. wink

"It is finished," is the famous line - Amen!! - but, necessary for the Gospel, and taken from Heb 9:15-17 and at least also Rom 3:23,24; 5:16,18, God declared his Son righteous in his own right, for the world, by his faithful death in the will of God. Jesus was declared righteous by God because he, Jesus, was - and immediately, judicially recognised, on behalf of all of mankind according to the everlasting covenant - Saviour already by law and grace (true, gracious substitution), "from faith to faith" (Rom 1:17), when he died on Calvary.

...and yes, sanctification adds nothing to our qualification for heaven which is Jesus making us righteous by imputing his Spirit to us while taking away our guilt.
Quote:
Ellen wrote, "But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins, or neglecting known duties. [u]God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {1SM 366.1}

Yes, justification by faith involves that change of heart: Amen! - Hallelujah! grin smile

We are made righteous in justification by grace through faith, because Jesus was declared righteous for our justification.

Last edited by Colin; 05/02/11 06:05 PM.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Colin] #133214
05/04/11 03:39 PM
05/04/11 03:39 PM
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Quote:
Having reviewed this entire thread..., I've spotted the confusion over Jesus and what Tom said. Jesus "justified in the Spirit" is separate to Jesus' righteous character: that's what the Scriptures say, and that's what we need to distinguish in our own lives, too.

Righteousness by faith is the experience of justification by faith: pardon and regeneration, and living the new life unto God. Jesus, the Word made flesh, was justified in his humanity by the perfect daily submission to his Father's "Spirit in the fulness of the Godhead". This is separate to his meritorious character, all his own - meritorious since human yet in harmony with God's will.

I disagree. Pardon means precisely that someone's character must stand in place of yours so that God can see in you a perfect character, a character free of sin.
Christ didn't need pardon. He didn't need regeneration (new birth) either, so He wasn't justified in the same sense we are.

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Rosangela] #133218
05/04/11 04:10 PM
05/04/11 04:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Colin
Ellen wrote, "But while God can be just, and yet justify the sinner through the merits of Christ, no man can cover his soul with the garments of Christ's righteousness while practicing known sins, or neglecting known duties. [u]God requires the entire surrender of the heart, before justification can take place; and in order for man to retain justification, there must be continual obedience, through active, living faith that works by love and purifies the soul. {1SM 366.1}

Yes, justification by faith involves that change of heart.

No, justification justifies what God does. It happens when God pardons our sins and credits Jesus' righteousness to us as if we ourselves were righteous all that time instead of committing all those sins. The reason God does so is because we are dead to sin, self, and Satan and are born again a new man in Christ growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit.

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Mountain Man] #133229
05/04/11 11:41 PM
05/04/11 11:41 PM
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Quote:
I disagree. Pardon means precisely that someone's character must stand in place of yours so that God can see in you a perfect character, a character free of sin.


Pardon means that forgiveness must take place. The requirement for forgiveness to take place is that the offended party must be willing to forgive, and the offending party must be willing to be forgiven. God has always been a willing party, so much so that He gave His Son. The problem has always been on our end. We need to have the love of God revealed to us, so that we are led to repentance, and desire forgiveness.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Mountain Man] #133230
05/05/11 12:05 AM
05/05/11 12:05 AM
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Originally Posted By: MM
Justification is purely imputed; whereas, sanctification is purely imparted.


It looks like you may be thinking of "imputed" as dealing with only a legal issue, as not impacting one's being. The imputed righteousness of Christ changes us, involving as it does the writing of the law on the heart, bringing us in conformity with the will of God. This was a cornerstone of the message which Jones and Waggoner brought to us.

Quote:
Notice in the above account that the taking away of the filthy garments is the same as causing the iniquity to pass from the person. And so we find that when Christ covers us with the robe of His own righteousness, He does not furnish a cloak for sin but takes the sin away.

And this shows that the forgiveness of sins is something more than a mere form, something more than a mere entry in the books of record in heaven, to the effect that the sin has been cancelled. The forgiveness of sins is a reality; it is something tangible, something that vitally affects the individual.

It actually clears him from guilt, and if he is cleared from guilt, is justified, made righteous, he has certainly undergone a radical change. He is, indeed, another person, for he obtained this righteousness for the remission of sins, in Christ. It was obtained only by putting on Christ. But "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature." 2 Cor. 5:17.

And so the full and free forgiveness of sins carries with it that wonderful and miraculous change known as the new birth, for a man cannot become a new creature except by a new birth. This is the same as having a new, or a clean, heart.(Christ and His Righteousness)


The SOP expresses the concept here:

Quote:
When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah. {FLB 113.4}
Those who ... accept of Christ are looked upon by God, not as they are in Adam, but as they are in Jesus Christ, as the sons and daughters of God. {FLB 113.5;ellipsis original}


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #133253
05/05/11 01:40 PM
05/05/11 01:40 PM
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Tom, I believe justification is what God does for us legally, namely, substitutes Jesus' righteousness for our pardoned sinfulness. It has nothing to do with what He does in and through us. Yes, knowing He justifies us fills us with peace and happiness and thankfulness, which, in turn, motivates us to abide in Jesus, to grow in grace, and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit more and more unto the perfect day. Nevertheless, justification and sanctification are different in that justification provides pardon and salvation whereas sanctification empowers us to move beyond the static state of pardon to experience personal "righteousness and true holiness".

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #133257
05/05/11 01:59 PM
05/05/11 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Pardon means that forgiveness must take place.

OK, and Jesus didn't need that. So He cannot have been justified in the same way we are.

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Rosangela] #133284
05/06/11 02:42 AM
05/06/11 02:42 AM
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Originally Posted By: MM
Tom, I believe justification is what God does for us legally, namely, substitutes Jesus' righteousness for our pardoned sinfulness.


If you read what I quoted, by either Waggoner or EGW, it can be seen that it involves more than simply legalities.

Quote:
It has nothing to do with what He does in and through us.


No, this doesn't agree with either quote. The quotes were clear that justification involves a change of heart.

Quote:
Yes, knowing He justifies us fills us with peace and happiness and thankfulness, which, in turn, motivates us to abide in Jesus, to grow in grace, and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit more and more unto the perfect day.


Before knowing He justifies us can motivate us, we need to be motivated to be justified.

Quote:
Nevertheless, justification and sanctification are different in that justification provides pardon and salvation whereas sanctification empowers us to move beyond the static state of pardon to experience personal "righteousness and true holiness".


You cannot be justified without experiencing personal "righteousness and true holiness." That's impossible.

Also, sanctification is as connected to salvation as justification is. Sanctification and justification cannot be separated. Colin put it nicely, the idea being something like sanctification is justification continuing to be experienced.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #133354
05/08/11 02:27 PM
05/08/11 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: MM
Tom, I believe justification is what God does for us legally, namely, substitutes Jesus' righteousness for our pardoned sinfulness.


If you read what I quoted, by either Waggoner or EGW, it can be seen that it involves more than simply legalities.

Quote:
It has nothing to do with what He does in and through us.


No, this doesn't agree with either quote. The quotes were clear that justification involves a change of heart.

Quote:
Yes, knowing He justifies us fills us with peace and happiness and thankfulness, which, in turn, motivates us to abide in Jesus, to grow in grace, and to mature in the fruits of the Spirit more and more unto the perfect day.


Before knowing He justifies us can motivate us, we need to be motivated to be justified.

Quote:
Nevertheless, justification and sanctification are different in that justification provides pardon and salvation whereas sanctification empowers us to move beyond the static state of pardon to experience personal "righteousness and true holiness".


You cannot be justified without experiencing personal "righteousness and true holiness." That's impossible.

Also, sanctification is as connected to salvation as justification is. Sanctification and justification cannot be separated. Colin put it nicely, the idea being something like sanctification is justification continuing to be experienced.

Thank you for sharing your view. Justification deals with past pardoned sins. However, it does not change our heart in the same way sanctification does. Jesus will cease offering justification to sinners after probation closes. Sanctification, on the other hand, will continue to happen throughout eternity, namely, growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, which, by the way, does not require justification.

Yes, the affects of justification are eternal, namely, pardon for past sins will never be rescinded. But the application of justification, namely, pardon for new sins, will no longer be available. One reason for this is the simple fact no one will ever sin again. But if they did (and they won't) they would perish without hope of pardon. No more second chances or probations. Conditions leading to sin would mean the person is unwilling to be pardoned.

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Mountain Man] #133379
05/09/11 06:44 PM
05/09/11 06:44 PM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Yes, yes... smile

Why is justification by faith, imputed righteousness, also called our qualification for heaven? Is pardon alone our qualification for heaven, or also, more importantly, regeneration by the Spirit, rebirth in the Spirit???

The pardon alone explanation you present, MM, looks uncannily like the forensic only, legal standing of acquittal, justification of Evangelicalism. Tell me why it isn't, please?

Is the Spirit of God imputed to us unilaterally by God, or are we born again by imparted righteousness, by choosing to obey before we actually receive the Spirit. That's why rebirth is the experience of justification, and living that new life is sanctification: the experience of justification in action, not just the renewal of a moment.

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Colin] #133395
05/10/11 12:34 AM
05/10/11 12:34 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Thank you for sharing your view. Justification deals with past pardoned sins. However, it does not change our heart in the same way sanctification does. Jesus will cease offering justification to sinners after probation closes. Sanctification, on the other hand, will continue to happen throughout eternity, namely, growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, which, by the way, does not require justification.


You're limiting what justification entails. I've already presented several quotes demonstrating this. First of all, from Waggoner. Jones repeated the same thing. Ellen White echoed their view.

Secondly, from Ellen White herself, the fig-leaf quote. The nakedness is covered (justification), when the heart is merged with Christ's heart, etc. That involves much more than a mere legal pardon for past sins.

Finally, here's another quote:

Quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the
Page 176
world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.


This is clearly talking about justification, right? Notice what is mentions:

1.Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.
2.The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.
3.The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself.
4.Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

These are the sorts of things one often thinks of in relation to sanctification, yet here they are all mentioned in the context of justification.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #133445
05/12/11 05:00 AM
05/12/11 05:00 AM
C
Colin  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 1,826
E. Oregon, USA
Thanks, Tom, and one more thing, implicit there... wink

The new life of the Spirit created in us by grace through faith in the experience of justification involves us dying to self and sin, too. The heart of the cross for us isn't so much revelation of the love of God toward sinners, and the wrath of God toward sin itself - so, mercy and justice combined, but death to sin - actual, spiritual death to sin by reconnecting to God by his Spirit. The full meaning of the cross is dying to self: that's not mere persuasion and agreement that God is agape - the devils believe and tremble! That's putting the old, sinful man of self to death by the power of God, dying to sin, coming to life in Christ, and living the new life toward God, by the faith of Jesus. Thus justification changes us, not just pardons us.

Jesus himself - since he is the subject of this thread - was burdened with a human, sinful self, but he perfectly denied himself, his assumed, sinful self, in obedience to his Father, submitting thereby to the new life of the Spirit. This was in order to qualify as Saviour of the world, whereafter he might then be the Pioneer and Perfecter of the faith, our Example.

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Colin] #133460
05/12/11 07:42 PM
05/12/11 07:42 PM
Tom  Offline
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14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Colin
Thanks, Tom, and one more thing, implicit there... wink


Thanks for the wink. I need all the winks I can get. My office mate was winking at me, but that's because he had something in his eye.

Quote:
The new life of the Spirit created in us by grace through faith in the experience of justification involves us dying to self and sin, too.


I agree with this.

Quote:
The heart of the cross for us isn't so much revelation of the love of God toward sinners, and the wrath of God toward sin itself - so, mercy and justice combined, but death to sin - actual, spiritual death to sin by reconnecting to God by his Spirit.


I disagree with this. Not with the dying to self/sin part, which I agree is essential, but with the "not so much" part. In the DA quote I cited, it starts out telling us it is the love of God shining from the cross that is drawing us, and that all who do not resist this drawing will be saved. So I see it as essential.

Quote:
The full meaning of the cross is dying to self: that's not mere persuasion and agreement that God is agape - the devils believe and tremble!


I mostly agree with this. I agree completely with the point that it's not mere persuasion or agreement that God is agape, but that's not what the quote cited is talking about. It speaks of the agape of God drawing us to repentance, and that we will repent, unless we resist that love. This agrees with Romans, which tells us that it is the goodness of God that leads us to repentance. Often people think it's something else that leads us to repentance, but it's not; it's the goodness of God. So if we wish to cooperate with God in bringing sinners to repentance, what should we do? We should communicate His goodness! I like that idea.

Quote:
That's putting the old, sinful man of self to death by the power of God, dying to sin, coming to life in Christ, and living the new life toward God, by the faith of Jesus. Thus justification changes us, not just pardons us.


I agree with this, except that the "just pardons us" is referring to a general false conception of what "pardon" involves. True pardon, the pardon that Scripture speaks of, and the SOP as well, incorporates all the things you mentioned. There's no such thing as pardon which does not include these things. So "just pardon," properly understood, would be enough, but not "just pardon" according to the common false idea of what pardon entails (i.e., merely a legal problem).

Quote:
Jesus himself - since he is the subject of this thread - was burdened with a human, sinful self, but he perfectly denied himself, his assumed, sinful self, in obedience to his Father, submitting thereby to the new life of the Spirit. This was in order to qualify as Saviour of the world, whereafter he might then be the Pioneer and Perfecter of the faith, our Example


Agreed. The importance of Jesus accomplishing this in order for it to be possible for us is often not understood, since the connection between us and Jesus is broken (by the idea that He didn't take our sinful nature).


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Colin] #133540
05/18/11 03:24 PM
05/18/11 03:24 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Colin
Yes, yes... smile

Why is justification by faith, imputed righteousness, also called our qualification for heaven? Is pardon alone our qualification for heaven, or also, more importantly, regeneration by the Spirit, rebirth in the Spirit???

The pardon alone explanation you present, MM, looks uncannily like the forensic only, legal standing of acquittal, justification of Evangelicalism. Tell me why it isn't, please?

Is the Spirit of God imputed to us unilaterally by God, or are we born again by imparted righteousness, by choosing to obey before we actually receive the Spirit. That's why rebirth is the experience of justification, and living that new life is sanctification: the experience of justification in action, not just the renewal of a moment.

The difference between Ellen's view of it and Evangelicals is both are necessary. Not only must God justify pardoning and saving penitent sinners, He must also empower them to "go and sin no more."

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #133541
05/18/11 03:30 PM
05/18/11 03:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: MM
Thank you for sharing your view. Justification deals with past pardoned sins. However, it does not change our heart in the same way sanctification does. Jesus will cease offering justification to sinners after probation closes. Sanctification, on the other hand, will continue to happen throughout eternity, namely, growing in grace and maturing in the fruits of the Spirit, which, by the way, does not require justification.


You're limiting what justification entails. I've already presented several quotes demonstrating this. First of all, from Waggoner. Jones repeated the same thing. Ellen White echoed their view.

Secondly, from Ellen White herself, the fig-leaf quote. The nakedness is covered (justification), when the heart is merged with Christ's heart, etc. That involves much more than a mere legal pardon for past sins.

Finally, here's another quote:

Quote:
How, then, are we to be saved? "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness," so the Son of man has been lifted up, and everyone who has been deceived and bitten by the serpent may look and live. "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the
Page 176
world." John 1:29. The light shining from the cross reveals the love of God. His love is drawing us to Himself. If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul. The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ. The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself. Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.


This is clearly talking about justification, right? Notice what is mentions:

1.Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul.
2.The thoughts and desires are brought into obedience to the will of Christ.
3.The heart, the mind, are created anew in the image of Him who works in us to subdue all things to Himself.
4.Then the law of God is written in the mind and heart, and we can say with Christ, "I delight to do Thy will, O my God." Ps. 40:8.

These are the sorts of things one often thinks of in relation to sanctification, yet here they are all mentioned in the context of justification.

Ellen wrote, "If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul."

Here she describes a when-then sequence. When we repent then we are empowered to live in harmony with the will of God. Two different aspects of salvation.

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Mountain Man] #133545
05/18/11 04:31 PM
05/18/11 04:31 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Ellen wrote, "If we do not resist this drawing, we shall be led to the foot of the cross in repentance for the sins that have crucified the Saviour. Then the Spirit of God through faith produces a new life in the soul."

Here she describes a when-then sequence. When we repent then we are empowered to live in harmony with the will of God. Two different aspects of salvation.


Two different aspects of justification.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #133554
05/18/11 07:01 PM
05/18/11 07:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, how do you differentiate between justification and sanctification? How do they differ?

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Mountain Man] #133565
05/19/11 04:27 PM
05/19/11 04:27 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Sanctification is the result of justification continuing throughout one's life. EGW said it was the experience of a lifetime, or something like that.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #133573
05/19/11 07:32 PM
05/19/11 07:32 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
I agree justification precedes sanctification and that both continue to be viable and necessary forever thereafter, but you didn't actually explain how you believe they are different. Do you view them as one and the same thing, as synonyms, as interchangeable words?

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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Mountain Man] #133582
05/20/11 01:37 AM
05/20/11 01:37 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
I agree justification precedes sanctification and that both continue to be viable and necessary forever thereafter, but you didn't actually explain how you believe they are different. Do you view them as one and the same thing, as synonyms, as interchangeable words?


I wrote:

Quote:
Sanctification is the result of justification continuing throughout one's life. EGW said it was the experience of a lifetime, or something like that.


If these were interchangeable words, this would become:

Quote:
Justification is the result of justification continuing throughout one's life. EGW said it was the experience of a lifetime, or something like that.


You don't really think this makes sense, do you?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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Re: Christ Justified [Re: Tom] #133602
05/20/11 04:31 PM
05/20/11 04:31 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, if the two different words (justification and sanctification) mean exactly the same thing, there would be no reason to write the sentence you did above. Please clearly explain the difference, as you see it, between justification and sanctification. Thank you.

PS - I believe the difference is as follows - 1) Justification happens when the Father pardons penitent sinners and views them as though they never sinned in the past and as though they were as righteous as Jesus was, and 2) Sanctification happens as they grow in grace and mature in the fruits of the Spirit and continues throughout eternity.

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