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Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: Rick H] #126650
08/08/10 01:24 AM
08/08/10 01:24 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
But he also has a Catholic background so then we had a discussion of use of 'Trinity' versus the 'GodHead' as I have yet to hear anyone give a good understanding of how the Catholic view of the Trinity differs from the standard traditional Protestant view...

I know of no significant differences between the Catholic and the standard Protestant views.

Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: Rosangela] #126653
08/08/10 12:39 PM
08/08/10 12:39 PM
Daryl  Offline

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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
By "no significant difference" are you saying there is still a difference between the Catholic and "standard" Protestant views?

And what do you mean by the "standard" views?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: Daryl] #126664
08/09/10 10:08 PM
08/09/10 10:08 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
There may be some minor differences. The Wiki says:
Quote:
The principal disagreement between Western and Eastern Christianity on the Trinity has been the relationship of the Holy Spirit with the other two hypostases. The original credal formulation of the Council of Constantinople was that the Holy Spirit proceeds "from the Father". ... It became customary in the Latin-speaking Church, beginning with the provincial Third Council of Toledo in 589, to add "and the Son" (Latin Filioque). Although this insertion into the Creed was explicitly rejected by Pope Leo III (who no less explicitly approved the doctrine it expressed) it was finally used in a Papal Mass by Pope Benedict VIII in 1014, thus completing its spread throughout Western Christianity. The Eastern Orthodox Churches object to it on ecclesiological and theological grounds.

The 1978 Anglican Lambeth Conference requested:

that all member Churches of the Anglican Communion should consider omitting the Filioque from the Nicene Creed...

[but] none of the member Churches has implemented this request. ...

Most Protestant groups that use the creed also include the Filioque clause. However, the issue is usually not controversial among them because their conception is often less exact than is discussed above (exceptions being the Presbyterian Westminster Confession 2:3, the London Baptist Confession 2:3, and the Lutheran Augsburg Confession 1:1–6, which specifically address those issues). The clause is often understood by Protestants to mean that the Spirit is sent from the Father, by the Son,[citation needed] a conception which is not controversial in either Catholicism or Eastern Orthodoxy. A representative view of Protestant Trinitarian theology is more difficult to provide, given the diverse and decentralized nature of the various Protestant churches.


The "standard" view would be that of the main Protestant churches: Lutheran, Presbyterian, Anglican, Methodist and Baptist. Some of the other denominations hold "nontrinitarian positions which include Binitarianism (one deity/two persons), Unitarianism (one deity/one person), the Oneness belief held by certain Pentecostal groups, Modalism, and The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' view of the Godhead as three separate beings who are one in purpose rather than essence" (Wiki).

Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: Rosangela] #126749
08/16/10 12:11 AM
08/16/10 12:11 AM
Daryl  Offline

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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
What would you say is the SDA view?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: Daryl] #126750
08/16/10 03:10 PM
08/16/10 03:10 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Certainly none of the "nontrinitarian positions" mentioned in the Wiki article:

not Binitarianism (one deity/two persons) [though the position of some is very similar to this one]:

"There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized." {Ev 615.1}

"The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit." {Ev 617.2}

not Unitarianism (one deity/one person): (see quotes above)

not the Oneness belief (there is one God, a singular spirit who manifests himself in many different ways, including as Father, Son and Holy Spirit): (see quotes above)

not modalism (God is one person who has revealed himself in three forms or modes; God does not exist as Father, Son and Holy Spirit at the same time): (see quotes above)

not the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints' view of the Godhead as three separate beings who are one in purpose rather than essence:

"The words of Christ were full of deep meaning as he put forth the claim that he and the Father were of one substance, possessing the same attributes." {ST, November 27, 1893 par. 5}

So our view would be closer to the "standard" view.

The Athanasian Creed says:

Quote:
That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence. For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one; the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is; such is the Son; and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated. The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited. The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal. As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite. So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty. And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty. So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet they are not three Gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord; So are we forbidden by the Catholic Religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords. The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal. So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity.


I see apparently nothing wrong with this Creed. We believe in three divine persons in one substance (essence), and these persons are coeternal and coequal. Ellen White uses the term "coequal" for the persons of the Godhead:

"It was to save the transgressor from ruin that he who was co-equal with God, offered up his life on Calvary." {RH, June 28, 1892 par. 3}


Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: Rosangela] #126751
08/16/10 03:20 PM
08/16/10 03:20 PM
Daryl  Offline

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Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
What about the Nicene Creed?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: Daryl] #126752
08/16/10 03:29 PM
08/16/10 03:29 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
The Nicene Creed says:

Quote:
We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible.
And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father [the only-begotten; that is, of the essence of the Father, God of God], Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father;
By whom all things were made [both in heaven and on earth];
Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man;
He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven;
From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
And in the Holy Ghost.
[But those who say: 'There was a time when he was not;' and 'He was not before he was made;' and 'He was made out of nothing,' or 'He is of another substance' or 'essence,' or 'The Son of God is created,' or 'changeable,' or 'alterable'—they are condemned by the holy catholic and apostolic Church.]


I also apparently see nothing wrong with this, nothing which could disagree with what Ellen White says.

Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: Rosangela] #126755
08/16/10 03:42 PM
08/16/10 03:42 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
I am not disagreeing with you, however, what was the belief of our SDA pioneers regarding this, and why?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: Daryl] #126756
08/16/10 04:19 PM
08/16/10 04:19 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
They were not trinitarians, and they believed Christ had a beginning. I suppose they thought the doctrine of the Trinity was part of the wine of Babylon. Their view only began to change after Ellen White wrote The Desire of Ages.

Re: Did Ellen White believe in the Holy Spirit... [Re: Rosangela] #126757
08/16/10 05:32 PM
08/16/10 05:32 PM
Daryl  Offline

Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
What did EGW say in the Desire of Ages that changed their view?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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