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Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #128298
10/21/10 10:39 PM
10/21/10 10:39 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Name = Cyrus
Event = Deliver Israel
Question: How could God know these specific details 100 years in advance? And, in what way were they settled?


The name was settled.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #128299
10/21/10 10:41 PM
10/21/10 10:41 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Tom, so, if the future is single-threaded (not saying it is) what difference would it make?


You should know the answer to that. What do you think? Pardon me for throwing this back on you, but I've written pages and pages of what difference this would make, so I'm interested in what, if anything, of what I've written has "stuck."


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #128300
10/21/10 10:49 PM
10/21/10 10:49 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
(Here's a comment regarding "Cyrus", in Isa. 44:28– Isa. 45:1.)

This passage is one of the most persuasive evidences of divine foreknowledge in the Bible. The verse proclaims the Lord as the one “who says to Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and he shall carry out all my purpose’; and who says of Jerusalem, ‘It shall be rebuilt,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’ Thus says the Lord to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have grasped to subdue the nations before him…”

According to the traditional view of the book of Isaiah, Isaiah recorded this prophecy about Cyrus over a hundred years before Cyrus was born. The passage is clear evidence that the Lord foreknew that a king named Cyrus would arise and would be instrumental in rebuilding Jerusalem.

At this time in world history, it fits the Lord’s overall providential plan to return the Israelites to their land. He thus takes unilateral control over a small portion of the immediate future and determines that it shall come about in a certain way. He even predetermines what the name of the king who shall release them shall be, undoubtedly as a sign to the Israelites that he—not the idols they were inclined to chase after—was responsible for setting them free (see 46:9–11; 48:3–5).

This passage is not a “crystal ball” sort of prediction. It is rather a declaration of what the Lord himself is going to accomplish. He is going to “grasp the hand” of Cyrus and direct him. This doesn’t imply that everything about Cyrus was directed by God or that Cyrus was not a free moral agent outside of God’s declared intentions. And it certainly doesn’t imply that everything about the future is foreknown by God. It only implies that whatever God has already decided he’s going to do in the future is known by him before he does it. He foreknows it by knowing his own intentions in the present. (http://www.gregboyd.org/qa/open-theism/responses-to-objections/how-do-you-respond-to-isaiah-4428%E2%80%93451/)


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #128314
10/22/10 03:57 PM
10/22/10 03:57 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, thank you for addressing the Cyrus question. I'm glad you concede there are times when God works to ensure the future plays out in accordance with His plans. And, regarding what has "stuck", it seems you believe any idea that forces the future to be single-threaded also means we are not truly free to make choices that result in an outcome different than what God watched play out. But I don't understand why you think so.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #128317
10/22/10 06:02 PM
10/22/10 06:02 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Tom, thank you for addressing the Cyrus question. I'm glad you concede there are times when God works to ensure the future plays out in accordance with His plans.


Why would you consider this a concession? I've made this point many times.

God is always working to bring about His will. The whole point of His prophecy was to give confidence that He is able to perform the things that He says.

Quote:
9Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,

10Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isa. 46:9,10)


God doesn't say, "Know that I am God because I know what will happen before it happens, because I can see the future" but "Know that I am God because I will do what I say I will do."

Quote:
And, regarding what has "stuck", it seems you believe any idea that forces the future to be single-threaded also means we are not truly free to make choices that result in an outcome different than what God watched play out. But I don't understand why you think so.


By "forces the future to be single-threaded," you understand I'm speaking logically, right? Like if I say, "Construct a four sided figure, all with 90 degree angles, with all sides the same length" I'm "forcing" this figure to be a rectangle, because the constructed figure must be a square, and all squares are rectangles.

So, in a similar way, if you state something which "makes" the future single-threaded (like the construction "forces" a square to be made), then that implies certain things (i.e. being single-threaded implies certain things, like being a square implies certain things).

So when you say you don't understand why I think so, which part are you not understanding? Are you not understanding why there are certain things you have said which imply the future is single-threaded? Or why the future being single-threaded would imply that we are not free to make choices that result in an outcome different than God knows will happen?

"Free" probably isn't the clearest word. "Capable" would be more accurate, I think.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #128348
10/25/10 02:29 PM
10/25/10 02:29 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Again, I am convinced God's experience in time and space has no effect on our experience in time and space. We have the ability and freedom to make any choice we please. Nothing hinders us.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #128349
10/25/10 02:30 PM
10/25/10 02:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
God knows the exact day and hour Jesus will return. The reason He knows is because He exists in the past, present, and future simultaneously.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Tom] #128353
10/25/10 04:08 PM
10/25/10 04:08 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Originally Posted By: MM
Tom, so, if the future is single-threaded (not saying it is) what difference would it make?

Is this one difference it would make? MM has complained several times about my comments. But, if it's single-threaded, if God knows exactly what I'll do, then he complaining (with the idea to "change" me), is pointless if the future is like history. It's already written and his complaints cannot have any effect on me as my actions are already written in stone. He only is under an illusion that his complaints will have an effect.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: kland] #128354
10/25/10 04:54 PM
10/25/10 04:54 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Kland, your observations seem to assume God existing in the past, present, and future simultaneously somehow robs us of our ability and freedom to choose as we please.

PS - I'm sorry you feel I have complained about you or intended to change you. Nothing could be further from the truth. On the contrary, I have simply confessed I do not enjoy your comments or studying with you.

Re: How Can a Person Know if a Prophecy is Conditional or Unconditional? - Part 2 [Re: Mountain Man] #128355
10/25/10 04:58 PM
10/25/10 04:58 PM
Tom  Offline OP
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Again, I am convinced God's experience in time and space has no effect on our experience in time and space.


It would have an effect if we thought about it. If we're willingly ignorant about logic, then it might not.

Quote:
We have the ability and freedom to make any choice we please. Nothing hinders us.


Nothing hinders from doing what you please, but you couldn't choose anything different than that. That is, there's only one choice possible, which is the one that has "already played out."


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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