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Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Tom] #129122
11/23/10 09:23 PM
11/23/10 09:23 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
That is, could it be that causing destruction and death doesn't even pertain to God's government? Perhaps death and destruction only pertain to Satan's government.

Isn't it exactly for this reason that the Bible speaks about the "strange work" of God?

The forbearance that God has exercised toward the wicked has emboldened men in transgression; but their punishment will be none the less certain and terrible for being long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The very fact of His reluctance to execute justice, testifies to the enormity of the sins that call forth His judgments, and to the severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor. {ST, January 25, 1910 par. 16}

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Rosangela] #129124
11/23/10 10:58 PM
11/23/10 10:58 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
T:That is, could it be that causing destruction and death doesn't even pertain to God's government? Perhaps death and destruction only pertain to Satan's government.

R:Isn't it exactly for this reason that the Bible speaks about the "strange work" of God?


The "strange work" of God is when God uses things which in general only pertain to Satan's government? Usually they pertain to Satan's government, but occasionally God makes use of them?

Are there any other principles that are examples of this? That is, principles which generally pertain to Satan's government, but that occasionally God makes use of?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #129125
11/23/10 11:02 PM
11/23/10 11:02 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
Yes, the OP is similar to GC 35-37 in many ways. However, one big difference is the OP isn't discussing final judgment and second death. Her focus is people who harden, destroy their hearts beyond hope. In this way "God destroys no man." They destroy themselves by rejecting the wooing influence of the Holy Spirit thus making themselves unfit for heaven.


She makes the same point in GC 35-37, doesn't she? That is:

Quote:
God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.


This is exactly the same principle, isn't it? That is, if we consider the final judgment:

Quote:
The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown... God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice. (DA 764)


This looks like the same principle to me.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Tom] #129126
11/24/10 12:49 AM
11/24/10 12:49 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
The "strange work" of God is when God uses things which in general only pertain to Satan's government? Usually they pertain to Satan's government, but occasionally God makes use of them?

Are there any other principles that are examples of this? That is, principles which generally pertain to Satan's government, but that occasionally God makes use of?

Death, whether inflicted or permitted, pertains to Satan's government, not to God's. Even if you attribute a passive role to God, I don't think you believe that watching people die and doing nothing to save them (having the power to do so) is a principle of God's government.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Rosangela] #129127
11/24/10 01:04 AM
11/24/10 01:04 AM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
[quote=Rosangela:T:The "strange work" of God is when God uses things which in general only pertain to Satan's government? Usually they pertain to Satan's government, but occasionally God makes use of them?

Are there any other principles that are examples of this? That is, principles which generally pertain to Satan's government, but that occasionally God makes use of?

R:Death, whether inflicted or permitted, pertains to Satan's government, not to God's. Even if you attribute a passive role to God, I don't think you believe that watching people die and doing nothing to save them (having the power to do so) is a principle of God's government.[/quote]

I'm not following how this is responding to my questions. I asked:

1.The "strange work" of God is when God uses things which in general only pertain to Satan's government? Usually they pertain to Satan's government, but occasionally God makes use of them?

2.Are there any other principles that are examples of this? That is, principles which generally pertain to Satan's government, but that occasionally God makes use of?

Were you responding to question 1, or question 2? Or both? And how does your response answer these questions?

I'll take a stab at it. It sounds like you're answering question two, and skipping question one. It sounds like you're saying, "Here's an example of a principle which generally pertains to Satan's government, but also to God's, doing nothing to save one from dying when you have the power to save them." Is this correct?

And the point of this argument is that if this example is a valid one, of a principle existing in God's government that naturally pertains to Satan's, then it can also be the case that while causing death and destruction in general pertains to Satan's government, God can make use of these principles. This is the general argument?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Tom] #129139
11/24/10 06:37 PM
11/24/10 06:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Tom, in the past you have cited the humane hunter parable to explain why Jesus "commanded" godly people like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Elijah, etc to "utterly destroy" every man, woman, child, and infant, to "spare not". I seem to recall you saying Jesus was willing to run the risk of being accused of being in favor of what He commanded. Do you think Jesus was incorporating the principles of Satan's kingdom?

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #129150
11/24/10 09:17 PM
11/24/10 09:17 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
No. I've got no clue as to why you would think this.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Tom] #129154
11/25/10 12:42 AM
11/25/10 12:42 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
I'll take a stab at it. It sounds like you're answering question two, and skipping question one. It sounds like you're saying, "Here's an example of a principle which generally pertains to Satan's government, but also to God's, doing nothing to save one from dying when you have the power to save them." Is this correct?

And the point of this argument is that if this example is a valid one, of a principle existing in God's government that naturally pertains to Satan's, then it can also be the case that while causing death and destruction in general pertains to Satan's government, God can make use of these principles. This is the general argument?

Yes, although there is a fundamental difference between God and Satan, which is their motivation.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Tom] #129157
11/25/10 02:17 AM
11/25/10 02:17 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
M: Tom, in the past you have cited the humane hunter parable to explain why Jesus "commanded" godly people like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Elijah, etc to "utterly destroy" every man, woman, child, and infant, to "spare not". I seem to recall you saying Jesus was willing to run the risk of being accused of being in favor of what He commanded. Do you think Jesus was incorporating the principles of Satan's kingdom?

T: No. I've got no clue as to why you would think this.

I'm shocked at your response. Are you certain Jesus commanding His chosen leaders to kill women and infants isn't representative of Satan's kingdom? Or, do you think it's reflective of God's kingdom? Did Jesus ever command anyone to kill someone while He was here in the flesh?

PS - Please show me respect by addressing each one of my questions. Thank you.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #129170
11/26/10 06:01 PM
11/26/10 06:01 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
M: Tom, in the past you have cited the humane hunter parable to explain why Jesus "commanded" godly people like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Elijah, etc to "utterly destroy" every man, woman, child, and infant, to "spare not". I seem to recall you saying Jesus was willing to run the risk of being accused of being in favor of what He commanded. Do you think Jesus was incorporating the principles of Satan's kingdom?

T: No. I've got no clue as to why you would think this.

M: Tom, in the past you have cited the humane hunter parable to explain why Jesus "commanded" godly people like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Elijah, etc to "utterly destroy" every man, woman, child, and infant, to "spare not". I seem to recall you saying Jesus was willing to run the risk of being accused of being in favor of what He commanded. Do you think Jesus was incorporating the principles of Satan's kingdom?

T: No. I've got no clue as to why you would think this.

M:I'm shocked at your response.


Really? Shocked? You ask me if I think Jesus Christ was incorporating the principles of Satan's kingdom immediately after I explained that I thought the two kingdoms are completely different, and I couldn't think of any examples where God uses any of the principles of Satan's kingdom, and you're "shocked" that I would answer your question "no"? Why? Do you think I'm not aware of the implications of what I had said? I would think you should be "shocked" if I answered "yes," as that would contradict what I had explained. My agreeing with what I had said doesn't seem like it should cause you to be "shocked."

Quote:
Are you certain Jesus commanding His chosen leaders to kill women and infants isn't representative of Satan's kingdom? Or, do you think it's reflective of God's kingdom? Did Jesus ever command anyone to kill someone while He was here in the flesh?

PS - Please show me respect by addressing each one of my questions. Thank you.


I don't know what questions you're referring to. If you feel I haven't addressed a question adequately, you're free to re-ask it, but please do so in the context of my response. That is, quote your question, quote my response, and respond to my response.

Regarding your question here, yes, I've used the father hunter illustration, as that's the best one I've come across. However, I think it's rather hopeless to discuss this without first having in place a foundation for what God is like. Otherwise, we'll simply be interpreting things in accordance with our false picture of God.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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