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Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Tom] #129171
11/26/10 06:14 PM
11/26/10 06:14 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
T:I'll take a stab at it. It sounds like you're answering question two, and skipping question one. It sounds like you're saying, "Here's an example of a principle which generally pertains to Satan's government, but also to God's, doing nothing to save one from dying when you have the power to save them." Is this correct?

And the point of this argument is that if this example is a valid one, of a principle existing in God's government that naturally pertains to Satan's, then it can also be the case that while causing death and destruction in general pertains to Satan's government, God can make use of these principles. This is the general argument?

R:Yes, although there is a fundamental difference between God and Satan, which is their motivation.


I agree that there motivation is different, and that this is of vital importance, but I also believe they are governed by different principles in terms of what they actually do. For example, I don't believe God causes death and destruction as a means of accomplishing His ends, because I believe these are principles which are fundamentally contrary to the principles of His kingdom.

Satan is the author of sin and all its results, so he is the author of death and destruction. Satan causes these things to happen, and whenever they happen, he is ultimately responsible. God works to prevent these things from happening, although at times He is constrained to permit them. When Satan permits someone to die, and does nothing to save them, he is allowing something to happen which he himself caused, or, at a minimum, is responsible for. When God permits someone to suffer, whether death, or destruction, or any other evil which is the fruit of sin, God is permitting something which He did not cause, nor is responsible for, so I see that God and Satan are acting differently in this case, not simply that their motivation is different.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Tom] #129190
11/27/10 04:56 PM
11/27/10 04:56 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
When God permits someone to suffer, whether death, or destruction, or any other evil which is the fruit of sin, God is permitting something which He did not cause, nor is responsible for

But even if He does not cause the person's death, He would still be letting the person die, and this would still be against His principles.
However, I consider that God is partly responsible for the death of the wicked at the lake of fire, as I believe that the resurrection of the wicked in order to be judged is a step that could be skipped.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Tom] #129191
11/27/10 05:02 PM
11/27/10 05:02 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Quote:
M: Tom, in the past you have cited the humane hunter parable to explain why Jesus "commanded" godly people like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Elijah, etc to "utterly destroy" every man, woman, child, and infant, to "spare not". I seem to recall you saying Jesus was willing to run the risk of being accused of being in favor of what He commanded. Do you think Jesus was incorporating the principles of Satan's kingdom?

T: No. I've got no clue as to why you would think this.

M: Tom, in the past you have cited the humane hunter parable to explain why Jesus "commanded" godly people like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, Elijah, etc to "utterly destroy" every man, woman, child, and infant, to "spare not". I seem to recall you saying Jesus was willing to run the risk of being accused of being in favor of what He commanded. Do you think Jesus was incorporating the principles of Satan's kingdom?

T: No. I've got no clue as to why you would think this.

M:I'm shocked at your response.


Really? Shocked? You ask me if I think Jesus Christ was incorporating the principles of Satan's kingdom immediately after I explained that I thought the two kingdoms are completely different, and I couldn't think of any examples where God uses any of the principles of Satan's kingdom, and you're "shocked" that I would answer your question "no"? Why? Do you think I'm not aware of the implications of what I had said? I would think you should be "shocked" if I answered "yes," as that would contradict what I had explained. My agreeing with what I had said doesn't seem like it should cause you to be "shocked."

Quote:
Are you certain Jesus commanding His chosen leaders to kill women and infants isn't representative of Satan's kingdom? Or, do you think it's reflective of God's kingdom? Did Jesus ever command anyone to kill someone while He was here in the flesh?

PS - Please show me respect by addressing each one of my questions. Thank you.


I don't know what questions you're referring to. If you feel I haven't addressed a question adequately, you're free to re-ask it, but please do so in the context of my response. That is, quote your question, quote my response, and respond to my response.

Regarding your question here, yes, I've used the father hunter illustration, as that's the best one I've come across. However, I think it's rather hopeless to discuss this without first having in place a foundation for what God is like. Otherwise, we'll simply be interpreting things in accordance with our false picture of God.

You didn't answer my questions. I'm shocked. You have made it clear that the Father and the Son are alike loving and merciful and just. "He was never rude, never needlessly spoke a severe word, never gave needless pain to a sensitive soul. He did not censure human weakness. He fearlessly denounced hypocrisy, unbelief, and iniquity, but tears were in His voice as He uttered His scathing rebukes."

The question is - Why did Jesus command godly people like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, and Elijah to kill people?

In the humane hunter story the father, who opposes hunting, teaches his son, who insists on hunting, how to kill animals in the most humane way. In so doing, the father runs the risk of people thinking he approves of hunting. The compromise is worth it. It is the lesser of evils.

Again, Jesus commanded godly people to kill ungodly people. He even commanded laws requiring and regulating the execution of capital punishment. In the past, you said commanding and legislating death was not Jesus' will or desire. Seems to me you believe the unholy expectations of God by Jew and Gentile alike forced Jesus to behave uncharacteristically of God. He was willing to compromise in order to win their respect and devotion long enough to wean them from killing people.

In light of this insight, do you think killing people in battle and executing capital punishment reflect the principles of God's kingdom or Satan's kingdom?

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #129192
11/27/10 05:06 PM
11/27/10 05:06 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
PS - Tom, I really hope you answer the questions asked above. It would be unproductive and unfortunate if you waltz around them without actually answering them.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #129244
11/30/10 03:14 PM
11/30/10 03:14 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
MM, has Tom ever "waltzed" around your questions without actually answering them? Please show evidence. If you think Tom didn't just answer your question, perhaps you could look at where was the first time Moses was commanded to kill people?

You have said only God has the right to kill people, but what gives here? If it were true (Not saying you agree with it) that we are to have God's character perfectly reproduced in us, would God have us kill people? Did godly people like Moses, Joshua, Samuel, David, and Elijah have God's character perfectly reproduced in them?

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: kland] #129261
12/01/10 02:40 AM
12/01/10 02:40 AM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Kland, would you mind summarizing what Tom believes?

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #129266
12/01/10 03:19 PM
12/01/10 03:19 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
I believe he believes very similar to what I believe and am shocked that you keep saying you have no idea what he believes when you find nothing else to respond to him with. What I understand Tom to believe is that we should look to Christ to see what God is like, although I understand you disagree with that idea. He does not believe that God uses the methods of Satan nor works with and directs him to destroy those who won't accept Him, nor in any way uses principles of Satan's kingdom. Often times, people refuse God's ideal for them. Rather than zapping them with fire, He works with them as much as they allow in order to bring them back to Him. Saying God works with people who refuses His ideal will is not saying that that is God's ideal will.

Where was the first time Moses was commanded to kill people?

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: kland] #129275
12/01/10 05:32 PM
12/01/10 05:32 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Kland, you didn't address the questions I asked Tom. Please answer them for Tom.

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: Mountain Man] #129278
12/01/10 05:36 PM
12/01/10 05:36 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
I thought I did. Which ones?

Where was the first time Moses was commanded to kill people?

Re: "God destroys no man" explained [Re: kland] #129281
12/01/10 06:00 PM
12/01/10 06:00 PM
V
vastergotland  Offline
Active Member 2011
3500+ Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 3,965
Sweden
http://marshill.org/teaching/2010/11/07/returning-to-the-field/

Here is a sermon discussing the parable about the king who threw a wedding party for the guests who were uninterested in attending. It gives an interesting view of the parable, well in line with the threat title.


Galatians 2
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

It is so hazardous to take here a little and there a little. If you put the right little's together you can make the bible teach anything you wish. //Graham Maxwell
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