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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131599
03/09/11 06:17 PM
03/09/11 06:17 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: APL
T:I don't think the type of separation you're suggesting is possible. That is, the body cannot be separated from the soul and mind so that its problems can be solved independently from solving the problem of the soul and mind. To heal the body, the soul and mind must be healed. Man is an indivisible unit.

APL:I would also say, to heal the mind, the body must be healed. The Adventist health message is a very significant part of the plan of salvation.


Agreed. It goes both ways.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131601
03/09/11 06:25 PM
03/09/11 06:25 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: APL
T:I don't believe this. The problem of death is not physical, but spiritual. The cure is also spiritual. This is why Jesus Christ is fundamental to the salvation of man. If it were a physical problem, Jesus Christ wouldn't be necessary; just the tree.

APL:As you said, the body, mind and soul are one unit. Death is always physical ultimately. With the death of the body, the mind is gone.

As for the tree - it does indeed appear that it could perpetuate life. But Satan's plan was to perpetuate a life of sin. That life would have been a life of misery. The Tree of Life is just that, a tree that perpetuates life. It can not undo all the damage. That is the plan of salvation.


Here's a passage that comes to mind:

Quote:
God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God." Christ says, "All they that hate Me love death." ... Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe. {DA 764.2}


This first sentence points out that one dies by separating oneself from God, who is the "fountain of life." I think this is true irrespective of the tree of life.

For example, later on in the passage, it says that had God left Satan and his followers to reap the full result of their sin, they would have died. Thus the full result of sin is death.

God did not permit this to happen, for it would not have been apparent to onlooking angels that this connection between sin and death existed. It would have appeared, instead, that God was arbitrarily destroying them. It took the cross to make the connection between sin and death clear.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131602
03/09/11 06:27 PM
03/09/11 06:27 PM
Tom  Offline
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Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: APL
T:I've said a couple of times that I don't believe that entropy, the Second Law of Thermodynamics, would have happened without sin. This would preclude the idea that man would "run-down," because that's what entropy is. So I think this is a fundamental question to consider. Did God create the Universe such that entropy existed from the get go? Or is entropy the result of sin?

APL:(quoting EGW)In order to possess an endless existence, man must continue to partake of the tree of life. Deprived of this, his vitality would gradually diminish until life should become extinct.(end quote)


Does this mean you think this passage is implying that entropy did exist before there was sin?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #131606
03/09/11 07:11 PM
03/09/11 07:11 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
Tom, please don't overlook 131526 and 131527.


Ok.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131609
03/09/11 07:18 PM
03/09/11 07:18 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: APL
As for the tree - it does indeed appear that it could perpetuate life. But Satan's plan was to perpetuate a life of sin. That life would have been a life of misery. The Tree of Life is just that, a tree that perpetuates life. It can not undo all the damage. That is the plan of salvation.


I think all will agree that the tree helped increase man's vital force, to use EGW's phraseology. Also, we agree that God did not wish to have man's life prolonged, in mercy, to cut short man's suffering, since man had chosen to live in a world of sin.

Regarding man's living forever, consider the time of the flood. At this point in time, man didn't live very long, because of all the violence. Left alone, man could live a long time, but man wasn't often left alone, but killed. In this case, even having access the tree of life, man would still die, by being killed by others.

This is a fundamental problem of sin; it makes murderers of those who choose to live by its principles. This isn't something the tree of life can fix. It requires Jesus Christ to fix the problem of sin.

So, to sum up the thought, even if man continued to have access to the tree of life, he would still die, in the case where he was killed by another man, and this was very common by the time of the flood, which was only two generations, counting a generation in terms of how long a man could live.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131610
03/09/11 07:24 PM
03/09/11 07:24 PM
Tom  Offline
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Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
M:1. Did Jesus ever command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?

2. Did Jesus ever command godly people to execute capital punishment?

3. Did Jesus ever withdraw His protection and permit the forces of nature or evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children?

M: My answer to the each of the three questions asked above is - Yes. I have no idea what your answers are. Would you mind answering them?

T: I'll address 3. Yes. For example, in regards to Jerusalem, He said, "How I long to gather you as a hen gathers its chicks, but you would not," indicating His desire to protect them, but they refused, and as a result of their refusal, Satan was permitted to treat them according to his will, and the destruction of Jerusalem happened. I'm flummoxed as to how you can say I didn't answer your question. How is this not an answer to your question? I answered "yes," and then explained why I answered yes.

M:Did Jesus close their 490 year probation early?


No.

Quote:
Was there still a chance they might comply with the conditions and remain God's chosen people and nation? Or, was their death and destruction inevitable?


Once they rejected Christ, choosing Satan as their ruler, it's difficult to see how any other outcome could have been possible. Hence Christ's anguish.

Quote:
When Jesus finally withdrew His protection, what organic relation, if any, did their death and destruction at the hands of Roman soldiers in 70 AD have to do with their sins?


They rejected God, choosing Satan instead, and were given over to the master of their choice.

Quote:
That is, is death at the hands of enemy soldiers the natural, organic, inevitable result of rejecting Jesus? Or, is there something arbitrary about it?


Yes. No.

Quote:
Also, how is Jesus withdrawing His protection and permitting enemy soldiers to kill people different than President Truman permitting the military to drop atomic bombs on Japan?


There are all sorts of differences. To name just one, the Japanese did not choose Truman as their master.

Quote:
Finally, I would appreciate it if you would take the time to answer the other two questions asked above.


We've discussed these at length in the past. I don't have anything new to add right now.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131611
03/09/11 07:31 PM
03/09/11 07:31 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
M: Do you believe in the New Earth we will be dependent upon the regular intake of food, water, air, and the fruit of the tree of life in order to live forever? If so, what do you think would theoretically happen if we were unable to partake of them for an extended period of time?

T: God created us to eat, to breath, to drink water, etc. So it could be that persisting in a self-destructive action would be sin, which would bring about entropy, allowing sin to bring forth death.

M:My question doesn't envision willfully refusing to eat, drink, breathe, or eat the fruit of the tree of life. It imagines a theoretical situation in which someone is unable to partake of one or more them for reasons that are not evil or sinful. You seem to be saying partaking isn't necessary to sustain life.


I don't see how the theoretical situation your suggesting would be possible without the commission of sin.

Quote:
Also, whenever Satan desires to cause death and destruction, he must first obtain permission from Jesus. Jesus considers the request and then establishes the perimeters within which Satan is allowed to work. Jesus also enforces His limitations by commanding holy angels to ensure evil angels do not exceed His restrictions. Satan is then dependent upon Jesus to work to uphold the laws that give life and vitality to whatever resources he intends to use to wreak havoc on humanity.


I don't think this is a good way of looking at things. This is from the chapter "The Destruction of Jerusalem"

Quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet, "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." [HOS. 13:9; 14:1.] Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. By stubborn rejection of divine love and mercy, the Jews had caused the protection of God to be withdrawn from them, and Satan was permitted to rule them according to his will. The horrible cruelties enacted in the destruction of Jerusalem are a demonstration of Satan's vindictive power over those who yield to his control. {GC88 36.1}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but he leaves the rejecters of his mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown, which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace, and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin, and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC88 36.2}


This way of putting things resonates much better with me. The way you put things sounds (to me) like you are envisioning that God is behind the bad things which happen, whereas the above paragraphs (to my mind) make it clear that this is not the case.

Quote:
With these things in mind it is proper to ask - Who or what acts when sinners are punished and killed? For example, when fire "went out from the LORD" and killed Nadab and Abihu, who or what acted to kill them? We both agree the fire did not act on its own. Please understand I'm not asking you to explain why they deserved to die. Obviously they are responsible for the fact they died. The question is - Who or what employed the fire that killed them?


I think the same principles were at work in these cases as laid out in the paragraphs I just quoted.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131612
03/09/11 07:40 PM
03/09/11 07:40 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
M:Yes, God is like that. Which begs the three questions listed above. What else can you tell us about Jesus that can help us understand the three actions named above?


I think it begs other questions.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #131623
03/10/11 12:24 AM
03/10/11 12:24 AM
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Laval, Quebec
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The reason I believe "There shall be no more death" means sin and death will never happen again is because of the context - "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." The promise says there shall be no death, no crying, no sorrow, no pain. If God killed someone because they sinned I don't see how it could happen without pain, crying, and sorrow on the part of the guilty party and on the part of those who witness it.


You have only stated your “belief” without really any exegetical or Theological support, at least to counter the ones I had presented. The verb “to be” for ‘mourning, crying, tears, pain’ is also in the middle voice. So they too will not occur “of themselves.” And that is indeed because the “former things” which naturally brought about these emotions would have passed away, namely the hurt that is brought by sin.

Furthermore there very well may be ‘no mourning, nor crying, or tears’ either by the those who are faithful as they would fully understand the fairness and necessity of such a judgement. Even the one being judged may not express any such emotion recognizing also its fairness. Indeed only a extremely recalcitrant person in the face of all this GC proof will choose to go down this path of sin again, and so they themselves will not manifest these emotions. Also, since God would be “nipping this sin in the bud”, there may also not be any pain involved in this judgement.

Still the full force of this verse, in context focuses on the adverse emotions that had been brought about by the ‘former state of thing’ which God will make sure never comes to be the case again, thus not reproducing these derived emotional results.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL] #131624
03/10/11 12:25 AM
03/10/11 12:25 AM
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Laval, Quebec
Originally Posted By: APL
First, if sure does feel like you are denying the literal meaning. And if Gen 3:15 is not literal, then what else is not literal? Gen 3:22? Second, you have missed the whole point all together. The serpent's seed is that which he added to the system, the transposable elements. So we all have them! To say Able had good seed and Cain had bad seed misses the point. To say that the flood wiped out the bad seed misses the point. Clearly the bad seed also was preserved by the flood.


(A) As a “prophecy” this statement is fully subject to symbolism and not mere literalism, if any. Indeed it is only fully fulfilled in the perfect divine nature that existed in Christ. Gen 3:22 is not a prophecy.

(B) To say that “The serpent's seed is that which he added to the system, the transposable elements.” is at your proving stage merely (eisogetical), hypothetical conjecture. Thus it is not “proof” to me. I have not seen a Bible or SOP statement that says that. On the other hand the SOP consistently applies a symbolic understanding to Gen 3:15. I have yet to see “proof” that ‘Satan physically injected something evil in man through the banned fruit.’ Just mere uncertain, speculative hypothesis. My argument based upon the Biblical evidence is that this physical corruption self-occurred in may when the fruit of life was removed from its system. If it was providing a supernatural element then is corresponds that its removal would result in “supernatural” damage, i.e., Man’s genetic information misfiring. As an illustration, a car that runs out of oil will result in the engine self-destroying without any external element being injected into the system.

Originally Posted By: APL
I suggest you read MR No. 1201.
....
Yes, the seed in one's nature, the whole nature, including the physiology. And it was not confined to just between Christ and Satan. The Great Controversy is being waged in each one of us.


1 SM 254-256 is the same text as your quote. So as those passages fully say, thus self-explaining themselves:

Originally Posted By: SOP
With Christ the enmity was in one sense natural; in another sense it was supernatural, as humanity and divinity were combined. And never was the enmity developed to such a marked degree as when Christ became a resident of this earth. Never before had there been a being upon the earth who hated sin with so perfect a hatred as did Christ. He had seen its deceiving, infatuating power upon the holy angels, causing them to revolt, and all His powers were enlisted against Satan. In the purity and holiness of His life, Christ flashed the light of truth amid the moral darkness with which Satan had enshrouded the world. Christ exposed his falsehoods and deceiving character, and spoiled his corrupting influence.


As I read/understand this in its context it, the “seed of th woman” was pointedly Christ here, and that enmity was the supernatural inclusion of a divine nature in the incarnate Christ. No mention that ‘the seed of the serpent was supernatural” or even the “enmity in man is “supernatural”. Only in Christ was this supernatural and thus perfect. Fallen man has had to naturally cultivate this enmity.

Originally Posted By: APL
Really? If I took out your frontal lobes, would you be the same? Do you required hardware in order to be you? If we need hardware, then does that make you an androids. NO! We are flesh and blood. This is what we are. Created by God. Our nature was corrupted by Satan, and it is not just caused by an altered thought process in an otherwise perfect brain that Adam and Eve had (and we do not!). The engineering what went into the system was corrupted.


I understood “hardware adjustment” from the precisions in your statement:

Originally Posted By: APL
EGW says that God communications via the electrical impulses in the brain. What is the underlying hardware has been tampered with and changed. God has put enmity with Satan in order to maintain a channel to man. If the underlying hardware is damaged, then there needs to be interference with Satan's work at the biochemical level. And indeed, we find "interfering RNA" molecules that lock up and shut down a lot of the added DNA.


For God to adjust this so-called ‘biochemical “hardware”’ so that we would hate sin is to, as any biochemical affection in the body, make us chemically dependent and “addicted” to good. That, like any “addicted” person, would take away our free will. Again it was only in Christ that this enmity was supernatural. In fallen man, it was developed naturally, and only gradually, as man would allow the nature of God to grow in them.

Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: SOP
Everything had been transformed by the working of the arts of Satan.{MR16 122.3}


To me the “working of the arts” merely involve sensorily influential things and not any direct physical interference or injection. In other words Satan various places before us his ways and man, by choosing to follow them, allows them to affect him. In regards to nature, it came to be affected because of Man’s fall which cause the agent that preserved its perfection to be removed, thus allowing it to become self-corrupted.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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