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#131694 - 03/11/11 03:29 PM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom]
kland Offline
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Would that open up evolution? Creation scientists tell us no new structures are created. But, if satan could create structures, could he create something much different that just confusion within the species?
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#131695 - 03/11/11 03:57 PM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom]
APL Offline
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: APL
The problem I see with the idea that sin is only in the mind, is that then how do you explain from the Bible, why there are thorns and thistles? Genesis 3:18. EGW explains this and I think I already quoted, that it was via genetic engineering.


This is what I have thought. She uses the term "amalgamation," but it's difficult to think of what else this could be referring to, if not what we would call "genetic engineering."

Today, genetic engineering is done via transposable elements. These things can be designed to target very specific regions of the DNA. Human DNA is full of them. Plant DNA is full of them. Animal DNA - the same. If all creation groans together (Romans 8:22) and it is caused by sin, then how does this happen? Genetic engineering fits for Genesis 3:18. "Seed" in Genesis 3:15 fits genetics, in perhaps multiple ways.
Originally Posted By: EGW
Adam was required to render perfect obedience to God, not only in his own behalf, but in behalf of his posterity. ...
But Adam failed to bear the test. And because he revolted against God's law, all his descendants have been sinners. {2SAT 180.2}
God's law had once been written in the hearts of men and women. But their cherished sins dimmed and nearly effaced that writing.{2SAT 180.3}

Adam's sin is passed to his descendants. This is by BOTH heredity and cultivation as EGW says it. If it is inhereted, then how? TEs fit. DNA is an alphabet used for writing the information that builds from raw materials an organism, and also how to run and maintain that organism.

Believing lies about God was not the fall! Believing the lies led to the fall!
Originally Posted By: EGW
She disbelieved the words of God, and this was what led to her fall. {PP 55.2}

Her fall occurred when she ate the fruit.

EGW makes an interesting statement, and that is that here have been a succession of falls. Not just fall, but multiple.
Originally Posted By: EGW
If the race had ceased to fall when Adam was driven from Eden, we should now be in a far more elevated condition physically, mentally, and morally. But while men deplore the fall of Adam, which has resulted in such unutterable woe, they disobey the express injunctions of God, as did Adam, although they have his example to warn them from doing as he did in violating the law of Jehovah. Would that man had stopped falling with Adam. But there has been a succession of falls. Men will not take warning from Adam's experience. They will indulge appetite and passion in direct violation of the law of God, and at the same time continue to mourn Adam's transgression, which brought sin into the world. {RH, March 4, 1875 par. 8}

Originally Posted By: EGW
From Adam's day to ours there has been a succession of falls, each greater than the last, in every species of crime. God did not create a race of beings so devoid of health, beauty, and moral power as now exists in the world. Disease of every kind has been fearfully increasing upon the race. This has not been by God's especial providence, but directly contrary to His will. It has come by man's disregard of the very means which God has ordained to shield him from the terrible evils existing. Obedience to God's law in every respect would save men from intemperance, licentiousness, and disease of every type. No one can violate natural law without suffering the penalty. {RH, March 4, 1875 par. 9}

So loss of health, beauty, and moral power, disease of every kind increased. Man's lifespan markedly decreased after the flood. This is more that just lacking access to the Tree of Life. This is a continual corruption of our nature. EGW uses the term, the "accumulation of sin" or "accumulation of contamination", or "accumulated suffering". TEs sure do that, hey continue to accumulate.

Over the last year, after first hearing this genetic hypothesis, almost every disease I've looked at will ultimately have as an underlying cause transposable elements. Metabolic pathways that lead to heart disease, stroke, cancer, autoimmune disease, and infection risks from eating meat and dairy, directly caused by transposable elements. And this data published in top scientific journals. Send me a PM and I'll email you a packet some of the documents.
_________________________
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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#131703 - 03/11/11 07:10 PM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom]
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Originally Posted By: Tom
No it doesn't. If you read the paragraphs in question, it can be seen to be saying the reverse. She writes over and over again, some 9 or 10 times, that the destruction of the wicked is NOT due to something being done to them by God, but is the result of their own choice. She could not have made the organic connection any clearer here.


Sincerely, you’ll need to list where you see these claimed “9 or 10 times” because I really do not see “all”, if any, of these actual mentions. This further explained “life” as “the life of God” makes this sounds to me more like an intended emphasis on a “quality of Life” vs. merely “life” here.

I’ll have to cut this pointed discussion short because it has the potential of being as futile as trying to get you to admit the plain reading of Gen 3:22-24 and PP 60.3.

Of all of the things that EGW says that the came to be “Finished” at the Cross, I do not see a statement that:
Originally Posted By: Tom
One of the things the cross accomplished was making clear what happens at death. The paragraph that speaks of the angels not understanding this makes this point clear. That is, the angels didn't understand, until the cross, that Satan's demise would be due to sin, if God left Satan to reap the full result of his sin.


Please provide the reference for that paragraph.

Originally Posted By: Tom
This is missing both the point in the immediate context, and of the chapter as whole.


The point indeed was that the paragraph you cited did not say this.

Similarly, your underlying tenet for the “organic” extent of your view is that, and correct me if I am wrong, ‘in the Cross, the organic relationship between sin and death can clearly be seen.’ Then how and why didn’t, even angels, not get the understanding that “sin results in death” from the billions of Human deaths before the Cross, starting with Abel’s???

Originally Posted By: Tom
It seems only eisogesis could explain not perceiving that DA 764 and the rest is bringing out the organic relationship of sin and death, since the point is repeated so many times, and in so many ways, in such a short passage.


List these ways...

Originally Posted By: Tom
DA 763.4-764.1 is simply quoting Scripture.


DA 763.4-764.1 is not “simply quoting Scripture.” It makes statements and quotes/references Scriptures to support these points.

Originally Posted By: Tom
It is following this that the Scripture is explained, and it is explained in terms of an organic relationship between sin and death.


What follows in DA 764.2 builds upon this basis in DA 763.4-764.1 of the start and permitted time for Satan’s rebellion so that it would be seen that his destruction was fully justified. Something (i.e., the justified destruction of Satan, and not “death itself”) the angels would not have understood had it been immediately carried out in Heaven. That is the entire point of EGW in these statements and not an attempt to demonstrate an organic relationship between sin and death, something that was clearly seen and was actually easily understood by all.
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“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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#131704 - 03/11/11 07:11 PM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom]
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Originally Posted By: Tom
Then man could not have been created in a condition to naturally die, since there was no entropy. One could say man was created in a condition in which he would die only if he disobeyed God.


I would agree with that statement only if this death is Biblically understood as being the result of being deprived of the Tree of Life, which, as I said before, was manifestly tangibly supplied of its “supernatural, life-giving power” from God Himself. In other words, I do not see that this, ultimately/originally ‘Life from God’ does not come to humans “ethereally/spiritually” or ‘by osmosis’ but tangibly, through, here the Fruit/Aroma of a Tree of Life.
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#131705 - 03/11/11 07:12 PM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL]
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Originally Posted By: APL
This does not prove it. The fruit itself was fine. But once God said, "do not eat of it", it became a grievous crime. Was this an arbitrary command of God? I think not.


Where we disagree here is that, since you see that this is not arbitrary, then it must then involve a directly active agent in itself. I also see that it was not arbitrary, but that the “harmful” element in this that made it not arbitrary was in the consequences and measures that God knew he would have to take for this tangible, thus deliberate, “disobedience”. And that was in barring access to the Tree of Life, which I also see, started the self-corruption of Man’s previously perfect genes with the absence of the “supernatural, God power/ingredient” init that had prevented this.

Originally Posted By: APL
I agree that the fruit of the Tree of Life was necessary to sustain life. And probably will in the world to come (Rev 2:7).


As I say, I can see this as the only way and means by which God can inject this supernatural element in the system of “non-immortal” man and Creation.

Originally Posted By: SOP
"There was nothing poisonous in the fruit of the tree of knowledge itself, nothing that would cause death in partaking of it."{ST, February 13, 1896 par. 7}


Does not this bold segment also preclude the injection of misinformation and TE’s from the fruit itself as you claim.

Originally Posted By: APL
A pleasurable sensation - just like drugs can cause a pleasurable sensation leading to addiction.


A “pleasurable sensation” can be caused in a person by many things other than an “ingested drug”. This is called “euphoria” which is a “an exhilarating psychological state of pride and optimism; an absence of depression”. E.g., winning a sporting event or money causes this “pleasurable sensation”. So this did not have to be something tangibly found in the fruit. It was probably just a feeling of: “Hey look, I just did what I wanted, even disobeying God Himself....I must know more than Him.... Wow, etc”

Originally Posted By: APL
Satan was out to take man captive.


It was indeed this addictive “euphoric” feeling of thinking to be as great and even greater than God Almighty, indeed becoming a god yourself, that Satan wanted to instill in man. Keep in mind the premise in Satan’s temptation of ‘being like God’ (Gen 3:5). So it was in this most addictive way that Satan wanted to, and (still) has greatly taken this world captive. To say that this was something tangible as a drug would also destroy our freedom, just like someone forcing a person done and injecting enough crack in their system to make them an addict. They did not become an addict by a free choice of theirs. God is also painted as unjust for punishing us from having been “addictively drugged” with sin. Eve may have freely eaten of the banned fruit, but she may not have asked to be so made into an “addict.”

Originally Posted By: APL
This statement does not say there were no ill effects. It says that the effects were not immediately felt. It very well could have been a long time coming. They soon felt they were naked. There sure were no other people around to embarrass them. And very soon after, the love they expressed for each other was thrown out and Adam blamed God and "the woman" Genesis 3:12. Adam and Eve's allegiance had changed.


As you say, the first felt ill-effect was a feeling of being naked and being ashamed of this. It can however be said that they were still genetically perfect and that until the next time to eat again (or for the first time?) of the fruit of life came and went.

Originally Posted By: APL
The problem I see with the idea that sin is only in the mind, is that then how do you explain from the Bible, why there are thorns and thistles? Genesis 3:18. EGW explains this and I think I already quoted, that it was via genetic engineering.


I have revised/calibrated my understanding here to understand as sin being both mental and physical and with both able to come to affect the body tangibly. Sinful/adverse thinking can affect the body however many of its harmful effects may be cured by the powers in the fruit of life, which is probably what necessitated its banning. However the absence of the fruit, as I see it, caused the human body to go haywire and self-corrupt itself. Still some sinful thinking, if they really cause not harm to the body can and will only be dealt with on a purely spiritual level, and that through the Sacrifice of Christ which prominently involved this atoning for man’s fallen “psyche”.

Originally Posted By: APL
EGW explains this and I think I already quoted, that it was via genetic engineering.


The foundational, Biblical/Theological problem with this view is that it gives Satan creative powers. That is readily seen in the ‘potential issue/question’ that kland went on to bring up in a follow up post. I do not see how this is possible for any created being. I rather see that what he does bring about, even as new, is from working with what already exists, just like humans today concoct things, even noxious/harmful things (e.g., agents for biological weapons) in labs. So I see that Satan came to ‘“sow” his noxious herb’ only after he had done some even genetical “amalgamation” from what already existed, indeed just like weeds can come to sprout in a perfect lawn simply from what already exists in that lawn. The ingredients of the “fruit of life” either transmitted to nature through the water or the air, could have also prevented the occurrence of this weed seed and God in Gen 3:17-19 apparently knew that this would be the natural result of this “Life ingredients” being removed from nature. So from this weed seed/gene Satan may have developed even more types of “noxious herbs and tares” and actively “sowed” them about the earth. (“sowing” and “amalgamating” is not the same thing as ‘originally creating as God can/does.’

Indeed the implied understanding that Satan could create goes against passages like John 1:3 that Jesus was the original Creator of everything. (I.e., before the point of secondary amalgamations or “genetic engineering”.)

Originally Posted By: APL
You can't blame the travail of all nature to the removal of the Tree of Life alone. No where does it say that animals were required to eat of the tree, and certainly not plants. But plants and animals have all infested by transposable elements.


I consider your TE hypothesis to be applicable/true only on a secondary level, i.e., sometime following the fall, in order to make things worse for man, and thus indeed variously take him captive, though that really would be should yourself in the foot because causing harm and disease is really not the way to prove that your way is better than God’s. However, I do not see it as being inceptive, i.e., that Satan (or God) had tangibly injected it into the banned fruit. Perhaps this genetic corruption in man would only have been realizable only after the time to eat of the Tree of Life had come and gone, then resulting in man’s immune system to vulnerably degrade from its perfect state. So injecting this prior to that time would have been useless as Man’s perfect body them would probably have successfully fought it off, removing it from the system. Also did Satan even know that God would ban the Fruit of Life from Man if they sinned. That may be why he said/believed that sinful man would not die. (However as I also believe that his own life clock was ticking since he had been cast out of Heaven, where probably Created Being have access to a similarly fruit of life, probably aromatically, he may have been aware of this probability and thus would indeed have “outrightly lied” here.)
_________________________
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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#131707 - 03/11/11 07:33 PM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL]
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Originally Posted By: APL
I guess I'm confused by your reaction to my question, which you did not answer! Let me rephrase the question, if the Tree of Life was NOT removed, and the Adam was allowed to eat of it, would his nature have been restored to perfection?


I guess I also came to misunderstand “nature”, due to just reading and reacting to your response, as “human nature”, which is evidently what you had misread/misunderstood, but is not what I had actually initially said. My statement had been:

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
In regards to nature, it came to be affected because of Man’s fall which cause the agent that preserved its perfection to be removed, thus allowing it to become self-corrupted.


Which in turn had been a response to your “everything changed” SOP quote.

So in regards to Creation/Nature my short answer is, Yes, it would have remained perfect since, as I understand it, it also was being kept perfect by the ingredients of the tree of Life, either by water or “aromatically”. That is why, as I previously said, I believe that the Garden of Eden which continued to have the Tree of Life even after the Fall and Expulsion of Man, continued to remain in it’s perfect state of over 1700 years while on Earth until just before the flood as the Tree was allowed to continue to diffuse this supernatural elements, or like the River of Life in Heaven, it was all in the water, and the Tree of Life was exclusively enable to produce Fruits of Life from this Water of Life.
_________________________
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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#131708 - 03/11/11 07:37 PM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man]
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
I'm sorry, but you lost me.


I didn’t think this could do that...

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
What is your opinion of this insight? Did she overstate the point and misrepresent truth?


Succinctly said here, given my prior fuller and contextualizing explanation, I think she did not fully understand all of the Theological implications involved in this statement and thus, only express this Truth as she best understood it. (“Misrepresent” or even “overstated” implies deliberate intent, which she did not have.)

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Regarding the completion of the investigative judgment, John quoted Jesus when he wrote, "He that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." There is no indication they will sin again in the New Earth.


The fact that the pertinent verbs here are expressed as “volitions” and “possibilities” (i.e., the Greek imperative mood - “the mood furthest removed from certainty” (Wallace, 485) - hence the resorting to “force”), shows that this is merely a desired wished. I.e., the Investigative Judgement has ended but there are still some teetering cases on both sides. So Jesus’s “wish” is that they will remain just where they are at so that He will not have made a wrong decision either way. Indeed in the unknown future as saved person may, after this judgement ends, “chicken out” and change sides. Conversely an unbelieving person may decide to follow the truth. So this is a statement that this should not come to pass, and Jesus has both the liberty and power to indeed forcefully harden/sustain people in both camps after this close of probation so that would not be the case, so that saved people will not be lost and “filthy” people will not make base ascents to the truth now fully/tangibly seeing the signs being fulfilled. (Matt 16:4).

So this statement, furthermore makes no mentions of what the future in Heaven will/should be. Man will always have the freedom to rebel against God if they insist. While Christ may be mercifully towards those who will be threatened with death after the close of probation and intervene to help prevent them from falling away (e.g. giving them sustain dreams), In heaven, with everything then proven, this merciful act would be outright and unjustified force against one’s inherently deliberate rebellious desires.
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#131712 - 03/11/11 08:46 PM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project]
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Originally Posted By: NJK
The foundational, Biblical/Theological problem with this view is that it gives Satan creative powers.

Really? How is that? Did Satan create life? No. Viruses - I would propose are an invention of Satan. Are they alive? No. They require intact living cellular systems in order to replicate. They take over a living organism. But they are not "alive". What we see in genetics is that TEs have modified all living organisms. The difference between placentals and marsupials? TEs. The genes are basically the same. How those genes are express, which is controlled by the TEs is the difference.

Satan can not and has not created life. But he has a powerful intellect that can be used to corrupt that life.

Humans have been given creative powers. We can create little people in our own image. Something I do not think Satan can do!


Edited by APL (03/11/11 11:03 PM)
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#131716 - 03/12/11 12:54 AM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL]
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Originally Posted By: NJK
T:Then man could not have been created in a condition to naturally die, since there was no entropy. One could say man was created in a condition in which he would die only if he disobeyed God.

NJK:I would agree with that statement only if this death is Biblically understood as being the result of being deprived of the Tree of Life, which, as I said before, was manifestly tangibly supplied of its “supernatural, life-giving power” from God Himself. In other words, I do not see that this, ultimately/originally ‘Life from God’ does not come to humans “ethereally/spiritually” or ‘by osmosis’ but tangibly, through, here the Fruit/Aroma of a Tree of Life.


The point made is that if entropy did not exist, then man could not have been created as naturally dying. You say you could only agree with this if death is Biblically understood as being the result of being deprived of the Tree of Life, but it should be easy to see that my statement has not dependence whatsoever upon what your saying, or, more generally, upon the Tree of Life at all.

My statement is simply that if there is no entropy, then it could not be said that man was created in a state of naturally dying. That doesn't make sense. Man could only be said to be "naturally dying" if entropy existed.
_________________________
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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#131717 - 03/12/11 12:57 AM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom]
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Originally Posted By: NJK
NJK:No it doesn't. If you read the paragraphs in question, it can be seen to be saying the reverse. She writes over and over again, some 9 or 10 times, that the destruction of the wicked is NOT due to something being done to them by God, but is the result of their own choice. She could not have made the organic connection any clearer here.

NJK:Sincerely, you’ll need to list where you see these claimed “9 or 10 times” because I really do not see “all”, if any, of these actual mentions.


Ok. This in itself will make the post long, so I'll make this its own post.

1.This is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God.
2.The rejecters of His mercy reap that which they have sown.
3.God is the fountain of life; and when one chooses the service of sin, he separates from God, and thus cuts himself off from life. He is "alienated from the life of God."
4.God gives them existence for a time that they may develop their character and reveal their principles. This accomplished, they receive the results of their own choice.
5.By a life of rebellion, Satan and all who unite with him place themselves so out of harmony with God that His very presence is to them a consuming fire.
6.The glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
7.At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this.
8.Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished;
9.It would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.
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MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!

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