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#131718 - 03/12/11 01:18 AM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom]
Tom Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK
NJK:I’ll have to cut this pointed discussion short because it has the potential of being as futile as trying to get you to admit the plain reading of Gen 3:22-24 and PP 60.3.


Is it futile for you to admit the plain reading of John 3:16?

Quote:
Of all of the things that EGW says that the came to be “Finished” at the Cross, I do not see a statement that:
Originally Posted By: Tom
One of the things the cross accomplished was making clear what happens at death. The paragraph that speaks of the angels not understanding this makes this point clear. That is, the angels didn't understand, until the cross, that Satan's demise would be due to sin, if God left Satan to reap the full result of his sin.

Please provide the reference for that paragraph.


DA 764, where it says that the angels did not understand "this." What "this" is is spoken of in the preceding paragraph, that the wicked have placed themselves so out of harmony with God that His presence to them is a consuming fire, and the glory of Him who is love will destroy them.

Quote:
T:This is missing both the point in the immediate context, and of the chapter as whole.

NJK:The point indeed was that the paragraph you cited did not say this.


Yes it did. I'll quote it:

Quote:
At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished; but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin. A doubt of God's goodness would have remained in their minds as evil seed, to produce its deadly fruit of sin and woe.


This says:

1.At the beginning of the great controversy, the angels did not understand this. What is "this"? It's what she was just speaking of in the preceding paragraph, that the wicked place themselves so out of harmony with God that His presence is to them a consuming fire, and the glory of Him who is love will destroy them.
2.Had Satan and his host then been left to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished. but it would not have been apparent to heavenly beings that this was the inevitable result of sin.

This says if God left Satan and his followers to reap the full result of sin they would have perished, but it would not have been been apparent to onlooking angels that this was the result of sin. Why is this no longer the case? Because Jesus died on the cross. Everything in the chapter is speaking of what Christ's death on the cross accomplished. This is apparent by reading the chapter. "It Is Finished" is speaking to this. The chapter starts out with this theme, and the theme is developed throughout the chapter. It starts out explaining things which were not evidence to onlooking angels until the cross, and it ends with this.

Quote:
Similarly, your underlying tenet for the “organic” extent of your view is that, and correct me if I am wrong, ‘in the Cross, the organic relationship between sin and death can clearly be seen.’ Then how and why didn’t, even angels, not get the understanding that “sin results in death” from the billions of Human deaths before the Cross, starting with Abel’s???


Because the cross is special, of course. That is why "It Is Finished" refers to the cross.

Quote:
T:It seems only eisogesis could explain not perceiving that DA 764 and the rest is bringing out the organic relationship of sin and death, since the point is repeated so many times, and in so many ways, in such a short passage.

NJK:List these ways...


I've done so.

Quote:
T:DA 763.4-764.1 is simply quoting Scripture.

NJK:DA 763.4-764.1 is not “simply quoting Scripture.” It makes statements and quotes/references Scriptures to support these points.


It makes the points I've listed.

Quote:
T:It is following this that the Scripture is explained, and it is explained in terms of an organic relationship between sin and death.

NJK:What follows in DA 764.2 builds upon this basis in DA 763.4-764.1 of the start and permitted time for Satan’s rebellion so that it would be seen that his destruction was fully justified. Something (i.e., the justified destruction of Satan, and not “death itself”) the angels would not have understood had it been immediately carried out in Heaven. That is the entire point of EGW in these statements and not an attempt to demonstrate an organic relationship between sin and death, something that was clearly seen and was actually easily understood by all.


She doesn't say this at all! She says nothing whatsoever along the lines that had God destroyed Satan before such and such was understood, this would have created problems, but now that such and such is understood, God can destroy Satan without any problem. She says that God gives the wicked a time to develop their character, and they make themselves so out of harmony with God that His presence is to them a consuming fire. This isn't something God is doing to destroy them, but something they do themselves to cause their destruction. She makes the point over and over again that the wicked do something to destroy themselves. She says that God alone is the fountain of life, and whoever separates themselves from God dies as a result.

She says if God "left" Satan and his host to suffer the full the result of their sin they would have perished, but it wouldn't have been understood that death was the inevitable result of sin. Why not? What do you think? Isn't it clear that the reason is because they would have misinterpreted the death of Satan and his followers to some cause which wasn't the case?

She says that they wouldn't have understood that death is the inevitable result of sin. That means they would have understood that their death was the cause of something else other than sin. So if they were understanding Satan's death, and the death of his followers, to be the death of something other than sin, what else could that be than that they were misunderstanding their death to be the result of God's destroying them?
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#131719 - 03/12/11 03:17 AM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL]
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As I said APL, Satan has secondary, manipulative “re-creative” powers and not the “ex-nihilo” power of God. So whatever he “creates” comes from the “Seed” of what already exist. The same thing occurs with man with his reproductive abilities. That creative “seed” was created by God.
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#131720 - 03/12/11 03:22 AM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom]
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My view that man was dying from creation had been based on my mistranslation of Gen 2:17b. So I’ll agree that entropy in man did not exist prior to the first missed Fruit of Life taking at its scheduled time. Same with nature with the withdrawal of the “fruit” ingredient.
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#131721 - 03/12/11 03:23 AM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom]
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Interesting List and comments on DA 764 and that It Is Finished chapter. I do not agree with it however. I see that the “this” in DA 764.2 refers back to chief sentence of the preceding paragraph (764.1): “This [the destruction of the wicked] is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God.” So the rebellion of Satan had to be allowed to be played out until the Cross to demonstrate that their sin was fully deserving of death. That is what was finally “Finished” on the Cross. The Angels fully knew that sin causes death long before that. They did not need the Cross to realize this, but solely the GC history and development of it before that. What they wouldn’t have understood before this GC development was that Satan’s sin as it then inceptively was, was deserving of their death. What they realized at the Cross was the (1) true motives, (2) concealed great hatred and jealousy of Satan towards God and Christ and also (3) the great price that it would take to redeem anyone who sinned: namely the (eternal?) death of God.

This hatred and jealousy of Christ by Satan that the SOP detailedly speaks of, also delving into revealed inner feelings and sentiments, these angels may have never known nor understood until they saw it for themselves at the Cross and it thus shocked them that this destruction of God/Christ had been Satan’s real/full plan all along.

By the way I specifically understand John 3:16 as Jesus now being the only accepted way to regain this Life, and thus without faith in him it indeed becomes impossible to have. My question however now is, does He still now, i.e., since His death, still have the divine nature in him to, as it appears to be the case, tangibly provide this physical life to man through these supernatural ingredients being injected into the Water of Life flowing from God’s thrown and alimenting the Tree of Life growing on its banks. So I still see the eternal life of man as wholly depending on a physical transmission from Christ and not merely for the indirect, ethereal spiritual reasons that you seems to have.
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“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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#131734 - 03/12/11 01:12 PM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom]
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Originally Posted By: Tom
...since there was no entropy.

If there is no entropy, then there is no metabolism. There would be no need to eat anything. Adam and Eve were to tend the garden. What is there to tend if there is no entropy.
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#131735 - 03/12/11 01:30 PM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL]
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Sin after the Great Controversy is over:
Originally Posted By: EGW
Says the word of God: "Affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. The law of God, which Satan has reproached as the yoke of bondage, will be honored as the law of liberty. A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them as fathomless love and infinite wisdom. {GC 504.1}

1) Nahum 1:9 - affliction shall not rise up a second time.
2) God's law is the law of liberty.
3) A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to God.

Here is the key from the genetic view, creation has been tested and proved. The work of God is perfect Deu. 32:4. His law is perfect Psa. 19:7. New created beings are sure to come in the future. Might there be doubts in their minds about God? Might there be things that we who are redeemed may not understand about what God is doing and must continue to trust (have faith) in Him? Was God's creation so fragile that just a wrong thought brought the whole system down? Or is this saying that the sin experiment has been done. God's was right, you can't change how life operates (mod DNA). You can't mess with the systems internals. His creation has been tested and proven. Christ and the redeemed will be the testimony about the awful experiment of sin.
_________________________
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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#131738 - 03/12/11 03:12 PM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project]
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
"But we desire to enter heaven, for there, there is no disappointment, no sorrow, no sin, no one who shall say, "I am sick." There, there is no burial train, no mourning, no death, no parting, no broken hearts; and Jesus is there, peace is there. {ST, February 8, 1892 par. 4}

M: What is your opinion of this insight? Did she overstate the point and misrepresent truth?

N: Succinctly said here, given my prior fuller and contextualizing explanation, I think she did not fully understand all of the Theological implications involved in this statement and thus, only express this Truth as she best understood it. (“Misrepresent” or even “overstated” implies deliberate intent, which she did not have.)

Are you saying she erroneously believed sin and death would never happen again in the New Earth?

Also, do you know of a statement in her writings where she clearly says, If someone were to silently sin in their heart in the New Earth, God would immediately destroy that person before their sin could ripene into open rebellion?

Originally Posted By: NJK
M: Regarding the completion of the investigative judgment, John quoted Jesus when he wrote, "He that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." There is no indication they will sin again in the New Earth.

N: The fact that the pertinent verbs here are expressed as “volitions” and “possibilities” (i.e., the Greek imperative mood - “the mood furthest removed from certainty” (Wallace, 485) - hence the resorting to “force”), shows that this is merely a desired wished. I.e., the Investigative Judgement has ended but there are still some teetering cases on both sides. So Jesus’s “wish” is that they will remain just where they are at so that He will not have made a wrong decision either way. Indeed in the unknown future as saved person may, after this judgement ends, “chicken out” and change sides. Conversely an unbelieving person may decide to follow the truth. So this is a statement that this should not come to pass, and Jesus has both the liberty and power to indeed forcefully harden/sustain people in both camps after this close of probation so that would not be the case, so that saved people will not be lost and “filthy” people will not make base ascents to the truth now fully/tangibly seeing the signs being fulfilled. (Matt 16:4).

So this statement, furthermore makes no mentions of what the future in Heaven will/should be. Man will always have the freedom to rebel against God if they insist. While Christ may be mercifully towards those who will be threatened with death after the close of probation and intervene to help prevent them from falling away (e.g. giving them sustain dreams), In heaven, with everything then proven, this merciful act would be outright and unjustified force against one’s inherently deliberate rebellious desires.

Ellen wrote:

Quote:
When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death. Probation is ended a short time before the appearing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven. Christ in the Revelation, looking forward to that time, declares: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:11, 12. {CCh 349.2}
The righteous and the wicked will still be living upon the earth in their mortal state—men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above. {CCh 349.3}
Silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men. 621 {CCh 349.4}

When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11. Every case has been decided for life or death. Christ has made the atonement for His people and blotted out their sins. The number of His subjects is made up; "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven," is about to be given to the heirs of salvation, and Jesus is to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords. {GC 613.2}

Do her insights described above support what you wrote above?

Also, do you know of any statement in her writings where Ellen clearly says after probation closes some people will changes their minds and reverse their eternal destiny?
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#131739 - 03/12/11 03:15 PM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man]
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Tom, I've bumped this post twice now hoping you will address it.

Originally Posted By: Tom
M: With these things in mind it is proper to ask - Who or what acts when sinners are punished and killed? For example, when fire "went out from the LORD" and killed Nadab and Abihu, who or what acted to kill them? We both agree the fire did not act on its own. Please understand I'm not asking you to explain why they deserved to die. Obviously they are responsible for the fact they died. The question is - Who or what employed the fire that killed them?

T: I think the same principles were at work in these cases as laid out in the paragraphs I just quoted [GC88 36].

Here's an excerpt from the quote you posted, "The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan."

In the Bible it says, "And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD."

Ellen wrote, "God consumed them by fire for their positive disregard of His express directions. {RH, March 25, 1875 par. 2} "Fire from his presence destroyed them in their sin. {4aSG 125.1} "A fire blazed out from the holy of holies and consumed them. {Te 280.1}

You seem to be suggesting the "fire" that "blazed out" from the "presence" of God in "the holy of holies" and "consumed" Nadab and Abihu in reality was employed by Satan. Is this what you believe Ellen had in mind? If so, doesn't that imply she believed Satan was standing beside God in the most holy place when he employed fire to kill them?

Do you know of even one passage where Ellen plainly says, God withdrew His protection and permitted Satan to employ fire to kill Nadab and Abihu?

Originally Posted By: Tom
1. In the OT, did Jesus ever command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?

2. In the OT, did Jesus ever command godly people to execute capital punishment?

3. In the OT, did Jesus ever withdraw His protection and permit the forces of nature or evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children?

M: Yes, God turns the other cheek, goes the extra mile, and offers His other coat. Which begs the three questions listed above. What else can you tell us about Jesus that can help us understand the three actions named above?

T: I think it begs other questions.

What other questions do you have in mind?

Also, it is obvious that the answer to the three questions listed above is - Yes! Do you agree? If not, why not?
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#131746 - 03/12/11 08:42 PM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL]
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Originally Posted By: APL
Sin after the Great Controversy is over:
Originally Posted By: EGW
Says the word of God: "Affliction shall not rise up the second time." Nahum 1:9. The law of God, which Satan has reproached as the yoke of bondage, will be honored as the law of liberty. A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to Him whose character has been fully manifested before them as fathomless love and infinite wisdom. {GC 504.1}

1) Nahum 1:9 - affliction shall not rise up a second time.
2) God's law is the law of liberty.
3) A tested and proved creation will never again be turned from allegiance to God.

Here is the key from the genetic view, creation has been tested and proved. The work of God is perfect Deu. 32:4. His law is perfect Psa. 19:7. New created beings are sure to come in the future. Might there be doubts in their minds about God? Might there be things that we who are redeemed may not understand about what God is doing and must continue to trust (have faith) in Him? Was God's creation so fragile that just a wrong thought brought the whole system down? Or is this saying that the sin experiment has been done. God's was right, you can't change how life operates (mod DNA). You can't mess with the systems internals. His creation has been tested and proven. Christ and the redeemed will be the testimony about the awful experiment of sin.


APL, sincerely speaking, since you appear to be sincere, this is what has become disturbing to me with your “genetic” view, as you said, you indeed do see it everywhere in EGW writing, and in places such as this text where I do not begin to see how/why is would/should/could apply. Creation became messed up because of the removal of the sustaining Tree of Life, all indirectly stemming from the “thought” Eve had about second guessing God. So it is solely in that way that the upheaval in nature is linked to a single thought.
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#131748 - 03/12/11 09:26 PM Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man]
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Are you saying she erroneously believed sin and death would never happen again in the New Earth?


What EGW was in “error” here was that she did not understand the Biblical Truth about God and the Future and thus did not see this as an eternal possibility. So she made such “absolute negation” statements based on her incomplete/inaccurate view on this Theological topic.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Also, do you know of a statement in her writings where she clearly says, If someone were to silently sin in their heart in the New Earth, God would immediately destroy that person before their sin could ripene into open rebellion?


I do not know of any such statement, probably because it was not a present/understood truth for her and her generation then.

I am also not really saying that God will immediately destroy this person. Based on how the rebellion of Lucifer first began in his heart, which God surely could read, I rather see that such “devising thoughts” (Nah 1:9a) will be immediately exposed by God and a trial will surely follow where this person will be given the just penalty. It may only be the opportunity to present his case and weigh it against the GC facts. So if that doubt/questioning was sincere, that person may not even be destroyed, however if the person was scheming on how to steal from his neighbor that would be “nipped in the bud” and that sin and sinner eradicated.

However given the present realities then of e.g., seeing God, Jesus, Heaven, the GC etc., I do not see such sinful pettiness ever being entertained by these previously careful examined and selected redeemed ones. That is why the Investigative Judgement is so crucial and so thorough. It is not a matter of simply going through the motions. So this possibility of sin/rebellion may only be for something entirely “new” as it was for Lucifer’s rebellion.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: SOP
When the work of the investigative judgment closes, the destiny of all will have been decided for life or death. Probation is ended a short time before the appearing of the Lord in the clouds of heaven. Christ in the Revelation, looking forward to that time, declares: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work shall be." Revelation 22:11, 12. {CCh 349.2}
The righteous and the wicked will still be living upon the earth in their mortal state—men will be planting and building, eating and drinking, all unconscious that the final, irrevocable decision has been pronounced in the sanctuary above. {CCh 349.3}
Silently, unnoticed as the midnight thief, will come the decisive hour which marks the fixing of every man's destiny, the final withdrawal of mercy's offer to guilty men. 621 {CCh 349.4}

When the third angel's message closes, mercy no longer pleads for the guilty inhabitants of the earth. The people of God have accomplished their work. They have received "the latter rain," "the refreshing from the presence of the Lord," and they are prepared for the trying hour before them. Angels are hastening to and fro in heaven. An angel returning from the earth announces that his work is done; the final test has been brought upon the world, and all who have proved themselves loyal to the divine precepts have received "the seal of the living God." Then Jesus ceases His intercession in the sanctuary above. He lifts His hands and with a loud voice says, "It is done;" and all the angelic host lay off their crowns as He makes the solemn announcement: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." Revelation 22:11. Every case has been decided for life or death. Christ has made the atonement for His people and blotted out their sins. The number of His subjects is made up; "the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven," is about to be given to the heirs of salvation, and Jesus is to reign as King of kings and Lord of lords. {GC 613.2}


Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Do her insights described above support what you wrote above?


I Indeed think they do. Jesus’s statement in Rev 22:11 are stated after the visions of Revelation have been given (Rev 22:6ff). It is also said in a context of Jesus’s return being “near|swiftly”. As such it is spiritually, substantively and temporally quite applicable to the short period of time between the Close of Probation and the Appearing of Christ in the sky. So EGW apparent revelation that these words were said and/or apply in that time period as seen in GC 613 are thus Biblically supported.

Exegetically speaking, the imperative mood also adds more understanding here as it indeed expresses mere intent vs. “assertion/certainty” (indicative mood); “probability” (subjunctive); “possibility” (optative). These statement are even said to be an “ironic command” expressing a taunt or dare, particularly in regards to the evildoers. (See Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, 490-491, 748-751). So what is being conveyed here is a strong desire that this will remain the state of affairs following this close of Probation. Indeed as it was seen with Pharaoh when his (typological) plagues were falling, God hardened his heart starting from the sixth plague on so that he would not change his mind until all ten plagues had fallen. So the same thing can be done by God during the outpouring of the 7 Last Plagues so that both sides will remain where they were at the Close of Probation.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Also, do you know of any statement in her writings where Ellen clearly says after probation closes some people will changes their minds and reverse their eternal destiny?


I did not say “will”, I said “could” and that is “could want to” but God will not allow it then. As I said above, Pharaoh considered it, EGW states that the antedelluvians did and began banging on the Ark’s door (after 7 days since the close of their probation) so that Noah would let them in. (PP 99.3-100.1) Indeed it is most logical and likely that people who will have scoffed at the Three Angels Message will want to join the faithful remnant when they see the plagues falling only on them. That is how base, pain-or-pleasure trained people “think” and react. They don’t do the right thing until it begins to hurt them. The sealed saved on the other hand will most likely, though not ‘assertively, certainly’ remain faithful until the end, however some may freely choose to switch sides then. Hence the “forceful desire/command” of Jesus in Rev 22:11 for them to ‘continue to practice righteousness and be holy’ during this trying time.

When one understand the Biblical teaching about “God and the Future” it is rightly and easily understood that such future decision really cannot be definitely known, so it is not surprising that this is not shown in EGW’s vision. Indeed Jesus greatly wishes here that it will not be the case and thus will surely endeavor to make sure it indeed does not come to pass.
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“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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