HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested a One Time Yearly $20 or Higher Donation Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading. We need at least $20 X 10 yearly donations.
Donations accepted: Here
ShoutChat Box
Newest Members
ekoorb1030, jibb555, MBloomfield, Dina, Nelson
1323 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums118
Topics9,189
Posts195,525
Members1,323
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

7 Top Posters(30 Days)
kland 15
Rick H 15
Daryl 4
March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Member Spotlight
Kevin H
Kevin H
New York
Posts: 625
Joined: November 2004
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
3 registered members (Karen Y, 2 invisible), 2,868 guests, and 5 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 35 of 105 1 2 33 34 35 36 37 104 105
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131821
03/14/11 10:51 PM
03/14/11 10:51 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: APL
T:...since there was no entropy.

APL:If there is no entropy, then there is no metabolism.


Why not? Entropy implies a lack of efficiency in a process, not that a process cannot occur.

Quote:
There would be no need to eat anything.


I think this is a better argument.

Quote:
Adam and Eve were to tend the garden. What is there to tend if there is no entropy.


This is worth thinking about as well. I think I have an answer to this one.

When we think of tending a garden, we think in terms of entropy, because that's what we're used to. Plants need to be weeded, for example. If we just "let things go," they would become all weeds.

But the Garden of Eden had no weeds, nor would they have any weeds, if Adam and Eve didn't tend it. Also the plants would not die because of pests, or bad weather, or for any other cause. So what would their tending consist of?

They could cultivate a garden to be beautiful, the way botanic gardens are crafted today. Even if garden today didn't have the problems of pests/weather/weeds, etc., there would still be lots of work to do to make them beautiful, as well as a great deal of scope for the gardener to "make the garden his own."

As far as eating is concerned, that seems to imply a transfer of energy from one source to another. Entropy involves a lack of efficiency, energy being lost in a process, so from that standpoint I don't see the need for entropy.

Where I do see the possible need for entropy would be in response to the question of why man needs to eat at all in the first place. Why would man "run down," if there were no entropy?

But couldn't one consider this from the standpoint of something like a bank account. You make a withdraw (in the form of energy), and the withdraw needs to be replaced, even though there's no lack of efficiency in the process.

I appreciate your comments.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131826
03/15/11 02:34 AM
03/15/11 02:34 AM
NJK Project  Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
Hello APL and Tom. I appreciate your comments in this discussion. Because of my time constraints and demands on my schedule, I have to “pick my battles”, so to speak. As this discussion will require much more resources that I presently have and/or can invest in I’ll have to refrain from further in depth participation in it specifically, if any. God Bless.

Tom, I noticed a visit to my blog from your area which visited my GC overview post. That is indeed my overview. If you need something briefer, then as I said, it is basically the same as the SDA’s/yours. I just go deeper in terms of the realities, freedoms and correct Theology involved.

Since I won’t be able to follow up on my comments here, I wholly refrain from making any comments on your recent replies. It’s been interesting....

By the way, if this is of any help here, my initial comments (page #14) that had touched off this discussion was that some sins were to be capitally punished, because, were they allowed to fully bloom, they would reveal how deadly they were. I see the same thing occurring with Lucifer’s sin however God allowed it to develop to transparently reveal this inevitable end. With Israel, God was asking the to accept this known future consequence in faith so as to avoid a similar GC development scenario within Israel. All sins of course have the end result of death, however some accomplish this much sooner for various more direct societal and health affectations. These are also “high-handed” sins which leads to committer to be more bold in sinning and thus more likely to more rapidly effectuate this death end result. That is why I see that these specifically had to be “kept in check” and “nipped in the bud”. Of course, Toms reply then was that: ‘this view made sin and death seem as not being “organic”’, and hence this sub, “multi-branch” discussion...

Last edited by NJK Project; 03/15/11 03:03 AM.

“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131828
03/15/11 04:02 AM
03/15/11 04:02 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
NJK - Adios. Thanks for the discussion. I've never argued the genetic view before. And it certainly did not originate with me. However, I think it explains a lot, and I've studied is from science, the Bible and EGW. I hope the originators of this hypothesis will write a book - soon! Think of DNA as information to build and operate a complete organism, and the transposons also represent information, however they only cause death and disease (debated but I think the case can be made), then what you really see in out DNA is the Great Controversy on a microscopy level.

Tom - entropy is a reordering of energy. Less order from greater order. You manicured garden example is and example of going fro less order to greater order with Adam and Eve adding energy to the system. A phase change from ice, to liquid to gas is an increase in entropy. Breaking sugars down to more elementary componest, CO2 and H20, is a change in entropy, thus metabolism changes entropy. On earth, sunlight add energy to the system allowing synthesis of sugars. We eat them, and the go back to simple compounds and the cycle continues. I think entropy will still be in the earth made new. I doubt however that we will see the disasters we see today.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL] #131831
03/15/11 01:16 PM
03/15/11 01:16 PM
NJK Project  Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
Originally Posted By: APL
I hope the originators of this hypothesis will write a book - soon!

As with you APL, I would like to see such a publication. And if/when I have my desiredly-needed, intending research resources in place then, I'll painstakingly study it out, as it will then be done with other Biblical works. God Bless!


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131836
03/15/11 01:59 PM
03/15/11 01:59 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Originally Posted By: APL
Today, genetic engineering is done via transposable elements. These things can be designed to target very specific regions of the DNA. Human DNA is full of them. Plant DNA is full of them. Animal DNA - the same. If all creation groans together (Romans 8:22) and it is caused by sin, then how does this happen? Genetic engineering fits for Genesis 3:18. "Seed" in Genesis 3:15 fits genetics, in perhaps multiple ways.
Just a slight correction here according to my understanding. Maybe you meant to say genetic engineering can be done via transposable elements or genetic engineering sometimes is done via transposable elements. While I'm not sure about the bacteria portion, the very least is that genetic engineering is not always done via transposable elements using both or all involved organisms.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: kland] #131843
03/15/11 04:48 PM
03/15/11 04:48 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: APL
Tom - entropy is a reordering of energy. Less order from greater order. You manicured garden example is and example of going fro less order to greater order with Adam and Eve adding energy to the system. A phase change from ice, to liquid to gas is an increase in entropy. Breaking sugars down to more elementary componest, CO2 and H20, is a change in entropy, thus metabolism changes entropy. On earth, sunlight add energy to the system allowing synthesis of sugars. We eat them, and the go back to simple compounds and the cycle continues. I think entropy will still be in the earth made new. I doubt however that we will see the disasters we see today.


Nice reply. I need to be more precise in what I have in mind. Surely things like gas changing state will continue to happen, and this isn't what I had in mind.

What I was thinking had to do with inefficiencies in a process. For example, we produce waste, because of inefficiencies in our digestive system. Were we designed this way (so this will continue in the new earth), or is this the result of inefficiencies which came about as a result of sin? Similarly, our bodies break down over time; we get old and wrinkled, our hair turns grey, etc. Were we designed this way? And the Tree of Life prevents these things from happening? Or is the Tree of Life more along the line of resupplying energy (or "vital force," to use EGW's terminology)?

Regarding entropy, you've mentioned phase changes for gas, and another example comes to mind, which is that particles (say from perfume in a room) disperse and reach a state of equilibrium, going from more ordered (perfume in one spot) to equally dispersed. So "entropy" clearly isn't the right term for me to be using. I'll try "lack of efficiency" until something better comes to mind.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131844
03/15/11 05:04 PM
03/15/11 05:04 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: MM
M:Here's an excerpt from the quote you posted, "The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan."

In the Bible it says, "And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD."

Ellen wrote, "God consumed them by fire for their positive disregard of His express directions. {RH, March 25, 1875 par. 2} "Fire from his presence destroyed them in their sin. {4aSG 125.1} "A fire blazed out from the holy of holies and consumed them. {Te 280.1}

You seem to be suggesting the "fire" that "blazed out" from the "presence" of God in "the holy of holies" and "consumed" Nadab and Abihu in reality was employed by Satan. Is this what you believe Ellen had in mind? If so, doesn't that imply she believed Satan was standing beside God in the most holy place when he employed fire to kill them?

Do you know of even one passage where Ellen plainly says, God withdrew His protection and permitted Satan to employ fire to kill Nadab and Abihu?


We've discussed Nadab and Abihu at great length. To respond briefly, what I said is think the same principles articulated in GC 35-37 apply, where she speaks about how Israel destroyed itself by persistently resisting the Spirit of God, giving itself over to sin/Satan.

There are thousands of dangers from which God protects us constantly, by various means, including the Holy Spirit, holy angels, for example. We can be destroyed by natural causes, that God permits to happen, by evil beings (whether angelic or human) when God permits, or we can destroy ourselves by things we do (all of a sudden or over time). Destruction can be accidental, or planned.

The Destruction of Jerusalem explains in great detail how one such destruction took place. While the Bible uses language which clearly identifies God as the One responsible, the SOP draws away the curtain, and we see, despite the clear Biblical language apparently to the contrary, that it was not God who was responsible, but Satan. I believe many principles articulated here are general principles, and shouldn't be limited to Jerusalem. For example:

Quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.


I think these principles apply to destruction by means of violent death that occurs, whether accidental or planned. Every such death comes about as the result of sin/Satan, and is not according to the plan of God. As Jesus explained, when urged to destroy His enemies with fire, He did not come to destroy but to save. Destruction is the work of "Apollyon," the destroyer. Violence/torture/cruelty/compelling power are not principles of God's government.

He doesn't hold a big stick over our heads, and say, "It's my way or the highway!" and smash us over the head if we don't do what He says. Rather, He warns us, as a kind, wise, heavenly Father, of the consequences of fooling setting aside His counsel.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: kland] #131846
03/15/11 05:34 PM
03/15/11 05:34 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Yes kland, there are several techniques. In plants, the Gene Gun is often used, invented by John Sanford. This is not a precise method of gene insertion. Other methods include bacterial plasmids and viruses. These both are forms of transposable elements. Newer techniques are using transposons to target genomic sites very specifically. Again a TE technique.

BTW - John Sanford's book, "Genetic Entropy" is a must read for anyone interested in the Bible and genetics. While only a few pages in the book mention the Bible, the implications of his book point to the truth of the Bible.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL] #131848
03/15/11 06:03 PM
03/15/11 06:03 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Nadab and Abihu entered into the presence of God. There was very precise steps that needed to be taken in order to enter in. Nadab and Abihu did not take those steps and were in direct violation of God's commands. The question I ask is did God then flair out fire and "consume" them to punish them, or was this a direct consequence of their entering into the presence of God, the inevitable result, they would be destroyed. One could ask, what is the difference, either way, they are dead. To me it makes a big difference. In Nadab and Abihu's day, the presence of God was indicated by the Shekinah glory, the actual presence of God. Who can stand in this glory? Isaiah 33:14-15, the righteous. God had warned them not to come into His presence, not because He would then have to kill them, but because if they did, they would not survive. No one can see my face and life. See Exodus 33:20-23.

Ultimately however, it is the work of the devil that did kill them. A sanctuary had been created where by God could dwell with men. Nadab and Abihu willfully violated the precautions and violated the protections God had in place so he could dwell them men. They thus destroyed themselves.

Yes, I can give you a genetic reason why this happens, but for now will refrain. :-) I'll just say there is nothing arbitrary about it.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #131850
03/15/11 06:17 PM
03/15/11 06:17 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Tom
Originally Posted By: MM
M:Here's an excerpt from the quote you posted, "The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan."

In the Bible it says, "And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD."

Ellen wrote, "God consumed them by fire for their positive disregard of His express directions. {RH, March 25, 1875 par. 2} "Fire from his presence destroyed them in their sin. {4aSG 125.1} "A fire blazed out from the holy of holies and consumed them. {Te 280.1}

You seem to be suggesting the "fire" that "blazed out" from the "presence" of God in "the holy of holies" and "consumed" Nadab and Abihu in reality was employed by Satan. Is this what you believe Ellen had in mind? If so, doesn't that imply she believed Satan was standing beside God in the most holy place when he employed fire to kill them?

Do you know of even one passage where Ellen plainly says, God withdrew His protection and permitted Satan to employ fire to kill Nadab and Abihu?


We've discussed Nadab and Abihu at great length. To respond briefly, what I said is think the same principles articulated in GC 35-37 apply, where she speaks about how Israel destroyed itself by persistently resisting the Spirit of God, giving itself over to sin/Satan.

There are thousands of dangers from which God protects us constantly, by various means, including the Holy Spirit, holy angels, for example. We can be destroyed by natural causes, that God permits to happen, by evil beings (whether angelic or human) when God permits, or we can destroy ourselves by things we do (all of a sudden or over time). Destruction can be accidental, or planned.

The Destruction of Jerusalem explains in great detail how one such destruction took place. While the Bible uses language which clearly identifies God as the One responsible, the SOP draws away the curtain, and we see, despite the clear Biblical language apparently to the contrary, that it was not God who was responsible, but Satan. I believe many principles articulated here are general principles, and shouldn't be limited to Jerusalem. For example:

Quote:
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown.


I think these principles apply to destruction by means of violent death that occurs, whether accidental or planned. Every such death comes about as the result of sin/Satan, and is not according to the plan of God. As Jesus explained, when urged to destroy His enemies with fire, He did not come to destroy but to save. Destruction is the work of "Apollyon," the destroyer. Violence/torture/cruelty/compelling power are not principles of God's government.

He doesn't hold a big stick over our heads, and say, "It's my way or the highway!" and smash us over the head if we don't do what He says. Rather, He warns us, as a kind, wise, heavenly Father, of the consequences of fooling setting aside His counsel.

Thank you for answering some of my questions. However, I'm disappointed you consciously ignored my other questions. I don't understand why you are unwilling to answer them. Do you think you've already answered them? If so, please cite the post where you did so.

Page 35 of 105 1 2 33 34 35 36 37 104 105

Moderator  dedication, Rick H 

Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y. 03/27/24 09:35 AM
Are the words in the Bible "imperfect"?
by Kevin H. 03/24/24 09:02 PM
The Story of David and Goliath
by ProdigalOne. 03/23/24 08:06 PM
Global Warming Farce
by kland. 03/22/24 10:17 AM
Carbon Dioxide What's so Bad about It?
by kland. 03/21/24 12:34 PM
The Value of Bible Types
by TruthinTypes. 03/17/24 06:22 PM
Orion Which Every One on the Globe Can See
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:26 PM
'Prophet' Summons UFOs
by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 02:19 AM
Will You Take The Wuhan Virus Vaccine?
by dedication. 03/11/24 06:31 PM
Get That Razor Wire Up!
by kland. 03/05/24 12:49 PM
Messages for This Time
by ProdigalOne. 03/04/24 05:54 AM
The Lake of Fire is Hell
by Rick H. 03/02/24 05:01 PM
Adventist Agriculture
by kland. 02/29/24 12:33 PM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
The Wound Is Healed! The Mark Is Forming!
by Rick H. 03/27/24 10:36 PM
Are we seeing a outpouring of the Holy Spirit?
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:50 PM
Time Is Short!
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:45 PM
Climate Change and the Sunday Law
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:42 PM
WHAT IS THE VERY END-TIME PROPHECY?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 06:03 PM
Digital Identity Control
by Rick H. 03/23/24 02:08 PM
A.I. - The New God?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 01:59 PM
Christian Nationalism/Sunday/C
limate Change

by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 08:38 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:30 PM
Is There A Connection Between WO & LGBTQ?
by Kevin H. 03/12/24 09:20 PM
A Second American Civil War?
by Daryl. 03/04/24 06:14 PM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter
Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com

Copyright 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1