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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131772
03/13/11 08:21 AM
03/13/11 08:21 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK
APL, sincerely speaking, since you appear to be sincere, this is what has become disturbing to me with your “genetic” view, as you said, you indeed do see it everywhere in EGW writing, and in places such as this text where I do not begin to see how/why is would/should/could apply. Creation became messed up because of the removal of the sustaining Tree of Life, all indirectly stemming from the “thought” Eve had about second guessing God. So it is solely in that way that the upheaval in nature is linked to a single thought.

The eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil is what caused the fall. As I quoted from EGW, Eve believed the lies of Satan, and this LED to her fall. Believing the lie was not her fall.

As for nature falling apart because of the removal of the Tree of Life does not fit. Yes, the TOL could have continued to support life. But that life would be of a sinner.
Originally Posted By: EGW
Man was dependent upon the tree of life for immortality, and the Lord took these precautions lest men should eat of that tree "and live forever"--become immortal sinners. {TM 133.3}

I get the feeling from your replies about the Tree of Life, that if Adam and Eve could have eaten from that tree, they would have been able to be restored to perfection. But if so, the why do they need a savior?

You are right in that I do see the genetic tie-in all over EGW's writings. It is every where. But if you do not have genetic glasses, you will never see it.

In studying this genetic issue, I have found transposable elements responsible for many diseases. The extreme hypothesis is that all disease is caused by them. I could go down the line of so many diseases the I have found to as their underlying cause transposable elements.
Originally Posted By: EGW
Our Lord Jesus Christ came to this world as the unwearied servant of man's necessity. He "took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses," that He might minister to every need of humanity. Matthew 8:17. The burden of disease and wretchedness and sin He came to remove. It was His mission to bring to men complete restoration; He came to give them health and peace and perfection of character. {MH 17.1}

Messiah took on our sicknesses, and he came to remove our burden of disease. If disease is caused by TEs, then one of the goal of His mission was to find a solution to the TE problem.
Originally Posted By: 1 John
1 John 3:8 AKJV He that commits sin is of the devil; for the devil sins from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

With genetic glasses, TEs are the work of the devil.

The Tree of Life could have perpetuated life, but a sinner would have had a life of misery. And there is more. A sinner could not come into the presence of God, because to them God would be a consuming fire. And there is good scientific evidence that could explain why from a TE point of view. TEs weaken DNA, change the shape, make is susceptible to ionizing radiation. Take Nadab and Abihu. They came into the presence of God without the proper preparation. The fire of God consumed them. I do not see this as an arbitrarily imposed sentence against them. But as a natural consequence of a sinner being exposed to God's presence. Their TEs disintegrate, killing the sinner. I don't see the Tree of Life solving this problem, from a science point of view. TEs can cause whole segments of information to be lost. This can only be solved by putting the information back. This also explains why only Christ can come and solve the sin problem. It is so much more that just excising the defective part. Solving the sin problem is probably orders of magnitude harder than the original creation in that the remedy has to be individual specific, and it is ever changing. And it has to be solved and yet maintain the character of the individual.

Affliction will not rise again because the experiment has been done. If you mess with the way God has designed life to work, it will destroy it. The system is how ever not so fragile that just a doubt in the mind will crash the system. It was more. And this also explains how in the book Great Controversy, page 495, Satan is telling lies about God, a clear violation of the moral law! And yet had not yet sworn off allegiance to God. He had not yet so damaged himself that it could have been unwound.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL] #131776
03/13/11 10:21 AM
03/13/11 10:21 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Just to make sure you are reading and understanding me correctly here are my views in the light of your responses:

-I do not see that the fall came from something tangible in the banned fruit.

-When I speak of “nature” I am referring to Creation and not “human nature”.

-I never said that sinful Adam or Eve eating the fruit would restore them to perfection, especially in term of human nature. It would however perpetuate their life.

-I agree with your genetic view except for ‘seeing it everywhere through genetics glasses. To me that is not necessary. Of course all of the evils in the world can be traced back to genetic malfunctions, however that does not have to, nor come to, mean that ‘EGW knew and wrote about this throughout her writings.’ That is classical eisegesis on her writings. She was not knowledgeable to this level of science which probably did not even exist then, nor was she given revelations on this. So this view has to be externally imposed on her writings, and the “proof” of that only subjectively lies with the “beholder”.

Originally Posted By: APL
Affliction will not rise again because the experiment has been done. If you mess with the way God has designed life to work, it will destroy it. ...


-Genetics does not trump man free will. So it does not come to force man to live perfectly forever in the future (i.e., after the second coming) That is a deliberate choice that all will have to knowingly and freely make. In you view, how then did sin originate in Heaven where all was perfect, indeed even more than what will be in the future since e.g., our characters will have to be improved upon and Jesus will have his human form.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131785
03/13/11 07:43 PM
03/13/11 07:43 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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NJK, regarding post 131748, thank you for answering my questions. I've never met anyone who believes as you described above.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131786
03/13/11 07:48 PM
03/13/11 07:48 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: NJK
-Genetics does not trump man free will. So it does not come to force man to live perfectly forever in the future (i.e., after the second coming) That is a deliberate choice that all will have to knowingly and freely make. In you view, how then did sin originate in Heaven where all was perfect, indeed even more than what will be in the future since e.g., our characters will have to be improved upon and Jesus will have his human form.

Agreed that freewill is maintained. And in the New Earth, there will not be the temptation of evil. However, one must eat of the Tree of Life in order to maintain immortality. We won't have evil any longer, but we will still have a choice to live or not.
Originally Posted By: NJK
-I agree with your genetic view except for ‘seeing it everywhere through genetics glasses. To me that is not necessary.

OK - then how do you explain all the disease we see around us and in all life? It can not be lack of access to the Tree of Life because the "Information" that the system is telling us is that there is two antagonistic authors reflected in the DNA.
Originally Posted By: NJK
Of course all of the evils in the world can be traced back to genetic malfunctions, however that does not have to, nor come to, mean that ‘EGW knew and wrote about this throughout her writings.’ That is classical eisegesis on her writings. She was not knowledgeable to this level of science which probably did not even exist then, nor was she given revelations on this. So this view has to be externally imposed on her writings, and the “proof” of that only subjectively lies with the “beholder”.

It is true, she had no knowledge of DNA. That does not mean she did not understand heredity. Today we can decode the writing in the DNA. But she was very aware of the effects of heredity.
Originally Posted By: EGW
But Jesus accepted humanity when the race had been weakened by four thousand years of sin. Like every child of Adam He accepted the results of the working of the great law of heredity. What these results were is shown in the history of His earthly ancestors. He came with such a heredity to share our sorrows and temptations, and to give us the example of a sinless life. {DA 48.5}
Originally Posted By: EGW
Faith Purifies Inherited Imperfections.--Those who through an intelligent understanding of the Scriptures view the cross aright, those who truly believe in Jesus, have a sure foundation for their faith. They have that faith which works by love and purifies the soul from all its hereditary and cultivated imperfections.--6T 238 (1900). {1MCP 146.3}
Originally Posted By: EGW
The question for us to consider is, Have we the attributes of Christ? Excuses are valueless. All circumstances, all appetites and passions are to be servants to the God-fearing man, not rulers over him. The Christian is not to be enslaved by any hereditary or cultivated habits or tendency He is to rule the animal passions, rather than to be held in the bondage of habit. {SpTA09 56.1}
Originally Posted By: EGW
There are hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil that must be overcome.{8T 314.1}
Originally Posted By: EGW
There is every phase of character received by children as an inheritance. The defects and the virtues in traits of character are thus revealed. Let every instructor take this into consideration. Hereditary and cultivated deformity of human character, as also beauty of character, will have to be met, and much grace cultivated in the instructor to know how to deal with the erring for their present and eternal good.
Originally Posted By: EGW
Christ has given us no assurance that to attain perfection of character is an easy matter. A noble, all-around character is not inherited. It does not come to us by accident. A noble character is earned by individual effort through the merits and grace of Christ. God gives the talents, the powers of the mind; we form the character. It is formed by hard, stern battles with self. Conflict after conflict must be waged against hereditary tendencies. We shall have to criticize ourselves closely and allow not one unfavorable trait to remain uncorrected. --COL 331 (1900). {2MCP 546.1}

EGW did not know about DNA. But she knew about inheritance. There are several aspects in inheritance. There are epigenetic changes which change gene expression without changing the underlying DNA code. Epigenetic changes are what is used to control the underlying DNA. And there are the transposable elements which can modify gene expression, destroy genes, and bring in new genes via horizontal transfer. These changes caused by transposable elements may be responsible for ALL disease as the underlying cause. Epigenetics are influenced by our thoughts, habits, diets, etc. is what turns on or all the ill effects of the TEs. Thus the Adventist health message is not a trivial part in the Gospel, being as EGW says, the right arm.

Sin is not just bad thinking, or believing lies. The acting on these beliefs is what pulls the trigger. Eve believed lies about God, this was not her fall. It led to her fall.
Originally Posted By: EGW
She disbelieved the words of God, and this was what led to her fall. {PP 55.2}
Originally Posted By: EGW
Since the laws of nature are the laws of God, it is plainly our duty to give these laws careful study. We should study their requirements in regard to our own bodies and conform to them. Ignorance in these things is sin. {6T 369.1}

So, yes, she did not know heredity to the level of science we have today. But that does not mean she did not have understanding of the issues as pertaining to genetics. And I have not mentioned her "amalgamation" comments for which has received so much flack.

I have many more quotes of EGW that support a genetic view. You call it eisegesis. It is only eisegesis on my part if she is not talking about genetics and I say she is.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL] #131788
03/13/11 11:30 PM
03/13/11 11:30 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Agreed that freewill is maintained. And in the New Earth, there will not be the temptation of evil. However, one must eat of the Tree of Life in order to maintain immortality. We won't have evil any longer, but we will still have a choice to live or not.


That won’t be our only choice. It is manifestly because you believe that sin/evil can only tangibly come from a banned fruit that you make this conclusion. How then did iniquity form in Lucifer’s “perfect” heart (Ezek 28:15). What banned fruit did he eat?? You did not answer that question in my prior post! As long as God’s Created Being will be free, this possibility of them devising sin in their heart, (i.e., thoughts/mind and, logically/factually, not the physical pumping organ) will always be present.

Quote:
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
I agree with your genetic view except for ‘seeing it everywhere through genetics glasses. To me that is not necessary.


Originally Posted By: APL
OK - then how do you explain all the disease we see around us and in all life? It can not be lack of access to the Tree of Life because the "Information" that the system is telling us is that there is two antagonistic authors reflected in the DNA.


(a) I was referring to ‘everywhere in EGW’s writings’;
(b) as I went on to explanatorily say: “Of course all of the evils in the world can be traced back to genetic malfunctions, ...’”

I just don’t see a “proof” of your, let’s be honest, “scientifically, at best, still hypothetical view” that this harm was done by Satan (or God??) himself having written a corrupting “DNA code” in some, and addictive, ingredient in the banned fruit. Really you first need to work on moving your view from scientifically being a hypothesis, to proven science or else it is no better than arguing for life on Pluto, and morevover, claiming that it was Satan who had originally created them!!

Originally Posted By: APL
It is true, she had no knowledge of DNA. That does not mean she did not understand heredity. Today we can decode the writing in the DNA. But she was very aware of the effects of heredity.


That is indeed true, however I still do not see a reason to go eisegetically overboard as you have and “see genetics everywhere” including, as you staunchly claimed before, in the Legislative Law of God that Satan sought to amendment. Where else are you falsely/eisegetically ‘seeing genetics’. When EGW makes explicit or substantively allusive statements on heredity, then I’ll concede that it involves some form of genetics, otherwise requiring ‘rose-colored “genetic glasses”’ instead of such substantive exegesis is not my approach to understanding the writings of EGW, let alone the Bible. So if you want to convince me, substantiate your claims exegetically and also avoid making conclusory jumps as in: ‘since she said ‘heredity’ in this passage, then she must have understood TE’s and DNA in that other unrelated passage where the term is not even mentioned.’

Originally Posted By: APL
EGW did not know about DNA. But she knew about inheritance. There are several aspects in inheritance. There are epigenetic changes which change gene expression without changing the underlying DNA code. Epigenetic changes are what is used to control the underlying DNA. And there are the transposable elements which can modify gene expression, destroy genes, and bring in new genes via horizontal transfer. These changes caused by transposable elements may be responsible for ALL disease as the underlying cause. Epigenetics are influenced by our thoughts, habits, diets, etc. is what turns on or all the ill effects of the TEs. Thus the Adventist health message is not a trivial part in the Gospel, being as EGW says, the right arm.

...

So, yes, she did not know heredity to the level of science we have today. But that does not mean she did not have understanding of the issues as pertaining to genetics. And I have not mentioned her "amalgamation" comments for which has received so much flack.

I have many more quotes of EGW that support a genetic view. You call it eisegesis. It is only eisegesis on my part if she is not talking about genetics and I say she is.


To be quite honest with you, I really have no problem with your genetics look at the effects of sin problem, (there indeed is ample scientific and even Biblical support for it), except for attributing it as a source to the banned fruit of life. The fact that man physically degenerated when they stopped eating of the fruit of life, is proof enough to me that it was its “supernatural powers” that were preventing this genetics corruption. And still that was not an act of God, but a natural consequence, just like it is not your doctor, nor your sworn enemy, who injected you with a sickness when it breaks out in you because you stopped taking the pills that were keeping it from even ever beginning to develop. That in itself is highly speculative, Theologically unsound and thus outright eisegesis.

Originally Posted By: APL
Sin is not just bad thinking, or believing lies. The acting on these beliefs is what pulls the trigger. Eve believed lies about God, this was not her fall. It led to her fall.


Sin indeed “is not just bad thinking, or believing lies” however that is the very place that it all always begins, hence its only source. It also takes and entirely distinct process to turn a simple thought (e.g., temptation) into a sin in the mind. And, as I said before, if Eve’s sin came from an external and addictive source, then this whole GC has been an unfair act of God and that impeaches His Just, Fair and Loving Character.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131793
03/14/11 02:26 AM
03/14/11 02:26 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: NJK
That won’t be our only choice. It is manifestly because you believe that sin/evil can only tangibly come from a banned fruit that you make this conclusion. How then did iniquity form in Lucifer’s “perfect” heart (Ezek 28:15). What banned fruit did he eat?? You did not answer that question in my prior post!

I've given my view in the discussion. Ezekiel 28:15 AKJV You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you.

"iniquity was found in you". What does this mean? Of course there was no Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in heaven. But are you not an engineer by training? EE? Certainly you have designed something in the past. How did it come about? First you needed to understand how the system components worked, and how they all worked together. Then you had a goal as to what you wanted to achieve. You then used existing components and built up your design and tested it. Satan sought to add an amendment to the law in heaven (quoting EGW). If that law is codified in the DNA of his very being, then your poke at the lack of a bad tree in heaven is not relevant. Satan "is the author of sin". (GC 422). I read this literally. You read it figuratively.

Here is one of the issues. You can't accept this because to you God's law is just a legal law, is that what you are saying in the following quote of yours?
Originally Posted By: NJK
... in the Legislative Law of God that Satan sought to amendment.

So God's law is legislative, a legal declaration. I'm saying that God's law is codified in all the law of nature, including DNA. If you mess with that coding, that is sin. EGW even talks about "defacing the image of God" in man by the use of amalgamation. This is genetic engineering. And she has gotten a lot of flack for that comment.

I read this view in scripture and in EGW. And it makes sense. It presents and interesting view of the plan of salvation. It explains, in a non-legal way how the sins of the world can be placed on Christ, how he can actually bear the sins of the world. It puts emphasis on God as the Creator and his Creation.
Originally Posted By: NJK
And, as I said before, if Eve’s sin came from an external and addictive source, then this whole GC has been an unfair act of God and that impeaches His Just, Fair and Loving Character.

And unfair act on God's part? He had warned Adam and Eve of the consequences of eating from the Tree.

But there is more to the genetic story which I have not discussed in this thread. TEs make up 50-90% of human DNA. About 40% of the DNA is locked up, suppressed. Genesis 3:15 says that there will be enmity between the serpent's seed and the woman's seed. Why only the woman and not Adam? There is good genetic answer, but I digress. With 40% of the DNA locked down, Satan can claim, "not fair". His experiment has been tampered with. At the cross, the "enmity" was removed. And it killed Christ. In the garden before the crucifixion, Jesus was dying, sweating blood. His physiology was falling coming apart. Isaiah 52:13-15 comes to mind. When was the last time you heard a sermon on those verses?

EGW in Great Controversy makes the following comment: It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. {GC 569.1}

So what is the "nature of sin" that the devil is misrepresenting?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: APL] #131795
03/14/11 05:23 AM
03/14/11 05:23 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
I've given my view in the discussion. Ezekiel 28:15 AKJV[
You were perfect in your ways from the day that you were created, till iniquity was found in you.

"iniquity was found in you". What does this mean? Of course there was no Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in heaven.

But are you not an engineer by training? EE? Certainly you have designed something in the past. How did it come about? First you needed to understand how the system components worked, and how they all worked together. Then you had a goal as to what you wanted to achieve. You then used existing components and built up your design and tested it.


Sorry but I do not see Electrical Engineering explaining this Theological issue. Nor does it actually illustrate it as for it to apply here, it would have to be said that Satan invented the electrons that then make all of that future engineering work. As I understand it, Satan does not have that originally creating power (John 1:3). Why do you think he was so jealous of Christ and God planning the creation of man without consulting him if he could create even anything on his own. If I have the money and some friends of mine decide to leave me out of their planned group trip to the Super Bowl, I be upset yes, but I’ll just go and by my own tickets there.

Originally Posted By: APL
Satan sought to add an amendment to the law in heaven (quoting EGW).


EGW also had this notion of the Law of Nature, but in that passage she is solely referring to the 10 Commandments, which the Papacy also sought to similarly “amend”.


Originally Posted By: APL
If that law is codified in the DNA of his very being, then your poke at the lack of a bad tree in heaven is not relevant.


You first need to show that the Law of Nature is synonymous with the 10 Commandments. To me they are distinct, though both contributive to God’s perfection.

Originally Posted By: APL
Satan "is the author of sin". (GC 422). I read this literally. You read it figuratively.


Indeed he literally is. He was the first to come up with what was sin in Heaven. However that does not mean, nor need to mean, that he is the one who inceptive, actively corrupted the perfect state of man by injecting something in the banned life. The removal of Tree of Life cause this inceptive corruption, indeed opening the door for Satan’s subsequent active corruptive means. Still I read of this tangibly being done to/in animals and nature, and not actually humans.

And if it was the case that the banned fruit was Satan’s “sin/TE poison” addicitive pill, why did EGW say anything of the sort on such a key and foundational point as she did with the Fruit of Life in stating that it contained “supernatural powers”.

Originally Posted By: APL
Here is one of the issues. You can't accept this because to you God's law is just a legal law, is that what you are saying in the following quote of yours?


Interesting way of “legalistically” putting it. I know that God’s Law is multifaceted. It does include nature. All I said was that in that EGW quote she was pointedly and solely referring to the Legislative/10 Commandment Law, which she also said was what was at issue in Heaven at Lucifer’s rebellion. Any other view needs to ignore that context, and thus is eisegetical.

Originally Posted By: APL
So God's law is legislative, a legal declaration. I'm saying that God's law is codified in all the law of nature, including DNA.


There are different aspect to God’s Law for different/distinct aspects of His Creation.

Originally Posted By: APL
If you mess with that coding, that is sin. EGW even talks about "defacing the image of God" in man by the use of amalgamation. This is genetic engineering. And she has gotten a lot of flack for that comment.


You may have an angle here....

Originally Posted By: APL
I read this view in scripture and in EGW. And it makes sense. It presents and interesting view of the plan of salvation. It explains, in a non-legal way how the sins of the world can be placed on Christ, how he can actually bear the sins of the world. It puts emphasis on God as the Creator and his Creation.


In my theological view, Jesus only had to pay for the sins committed by man. Just like, because man sinned, God removed his protection from creation allowing it to become corrupt, and be (second-handedly) corrupted (i.e., through the sowing of ‘noxious mixes’ and “amalgamations”, in the same way, when man’s sin is paid for, which all started in the mind/psyche, all of these sins and their effects will naturally be overturned, and unlike man, in especially regards to his psyche/character, that will be done by completely wiping the slate clean and starting all over. In the same way our bodies will not be remade from what had been, but will be entirely new ones. So God does not have to somehow impose on Christ all of the genetical malfunctions of the entire creation. As far as I see it, it was the sinful psyche that was the main issue that needed to be atoned at the cross so that it could be purged for the redeemed.

Originally Posted By: APL
And unfair act on God's part? He had warned Adam and Eve of the consequences of eating from the Tree.


Fair enough..., in isolative part. It is however your “addictive” addition to this act that really makes it unfair. Adam and Eve wanted to repent from this sin, but it was too late. They had crossed the line where the Ultimate Price for even that single sin had to be paid. However for this to have suddenly corrupted their DNA to make sin a now hereditary craving, I do not Theologically see it. To me it was the subsequent removal of the Tree of Life that started this, even spiritual, degeneration. If not then, how did God say that a sinful person can live forever?? We try to lessen that statement by saying that this is not what he really meant, and that man would eventually die, however that is not what God literally said, nor meant. That is why I understand that the first of Life has the supernatural power to preserve physical perfection, and that includes man’s genetics.

Originally Posted By: APL
But there is more to the genetic story which I have not discussed in this thread. TEs make up 50-90% of human DNA. About 40% of the DNA is locked up, suppressed. Genesis 3:15 says that there will be enmity between the serpent's seed and the woman's seed. Why only the woman and not Adam? There is good genetic answer, but I digress.


Well, you’ll need to present that “good genetic answer” because seed could only mean “descendants/offspring”. And it was the woman through whom sin originated in mankind!

Originally Posted By: APL
With 40% of the DNA locked down, Satan can claim, "not fair". His experiment has been tampered with. At the cross, the "enmity" was removed. And it killed Christ.


As I understand enmity here (i.e., a hatred for sin), I would have to understand here that the Divine, and even sinless human nature of Jesus came to “love sin”. I do not see any Biblical support for this view. If that because the case, his atonement would be made void. It was because he resisted sin to the end that he can be our perfect substitute.

Originally Posted By: APL
In the garden before the crucifixion, Jesus was dying, sweating blood. His physiology was falling coming apart. Isaiah 52:13-15 comes to mind. When was the last time you heard a sermon on those verses?


I do not recall exactly the last time I heard it but, e.g., just reading the SDABC points me to places where other people have sweat blood because of such agony!

Originally Posted By: APL
EGW in Great Controversy makes the following comment: It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the great controversy. {GC 569.1}
So what is the "nature of sin" that the devil is misrepresenting?


It does not take much linguistic/colloquial understanding to see that, in that context the “nature of sin” here simply refers to how evil/dangerous/deadly sin actually is. Just look around our world/society today and you see this realization with sin, in its various manifestations being wholeheartedly and/or indifferently lauded and celebrated by most. Indeed just as the character of God and the GC issues are being misrepresented.


You’re a fully entitled to your views. I am just saying that your proof of it is not convincing to me, and that mainly because I see it as being eisegetical. So we may just have to agree to disagree on this issue.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131813
03/14/11 05:34 PM
03/14/11 05:34 PM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: NJK
Sorry but I do not see Electrical Engineering explaining this Theological issue. Nor does it actually illustrate it as for it to apply here, it would have to be said that Satan invented the electrons that then make all of that future engineering work. As I understand it, Satan does not have that originally creating power (John 1:3). Why do you think he was so jealous of Christ and God planning the creation of man without consulting him if he could create even anything on his own.

Do EEs invent electrons? NO. Do they invent the laws of physics on which electronics work? NO. Do they use the reasoning powers to intelligently construct circuits that function? YES. Did Satan invent the electron? NO. Did Satan invent DNA? NO. Could Satan put DNA into a specific order? Why not? Is this creative power akin to God? NO. Is Satan a creator? Only in the same sense that an engineer is a creator. He used existing laws to change the way life works, just as an engineer uses existing laws to make electrical components and devices.
Originally Posted By: NJK
EGW also had this notion of the Law of Nature, but in that passage she is solely referring to the 10 Commandments, which the Papacy also sought to similarly “amend”.

Yes, the quote in question had to do with the Pope. But you did not answer how you add an "amendment" to the law. What did he want to amend? But there are other quotes. The following is an example:
Originally Posted By: EGW
After the fall of our first parents, Christ declared that in order to save man from the penalty of sin, He would come to the world to conquer Satan on the enemy's own battle-field. The controversy that began in heaven was to be continued on the earth. {ST, August 27, 1902 par. 2}
In this controversy much was to be involved. Vast interests were at stake. Before the inhabitants of the heavenly universe were to be answered the questions: "Is God's law imperfect, in need of amendment or abrogation, or is it immutable? Is God's government in need of change, or is it stable?" {ST, August 27, 1902 par. 3}

The context is "God's Law". The "law" is written on our inward parts.
Originally Posted By: EGW
God's law is written by His own finger upon every nerve, every muscle, every faculty which has been entrusted to man.

Hello!!! DNA.
If you corrupt that law, it leads to misery and death.
Originally Posted By: NJK
You first need to show that the Law of Nature is synonymous with the 10 Commandments. To me they are distinct, though both contributive to God’s perfection.

Synonymous with the 10C. Hmm, was there a Sabbath in heaven? Was there a need for the command to not commit adultery? I think not. EGW says the law was added because of transgression. (see {1SM 233.1}) Transgression of what? The law. Sin is transgression of the law. We need to sort out the laws here are one can quickly get into circular definitions.
Originally Posted By: NJK
Interesting way of “legalistically” putting it. I know that God’s Law is multifaceted. It does include nature. All I said was that in that EGW quote she was pointedly and solely referring to the Legislative/10 Commandment Law, which she also said was what was at issue in Heaven at Lucifer’s rebellion.

Again - were the "10C" in place in heaven? Are the 10C "legislative" as you put it, or are they descriptive of one who is in harmony with the way they were designed (created)?
Originally Posted By: NJK
In my theological view, Jesus only had to pay for the sins committed by man.

And just exactly how does Jesus make the "payment" and to whom is it paid? Is this a legal requirement?
Originally Posted By: NJK
As far as I see it, it was the sinful psyche that was the main issue that needed to be atoned at the cross so that it could be purged for the redeemed.

This is part of it. But it can be shown that many psychiatric diseases are directly related to the underlying hardware.
Originally Posted By: EGW
Our Lord Jesus Christ came to this world as the unwearied servant of man's necessity. He "took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses," that He might minister to every need of humanity. Matthew 8:17. The burden of disease and wretchedness and sin He came to remove. It was His mission to bring to men complete restoration; He came to give them health and peace and perfection of character. {MH 17.1}

Originally Posted By: NJK
Adam and Eve wanted to repent from this sin, but it was too late.

What made it too late? Read Great Controversy, chapter 29, and page 495 in particular. Satan is telling LIES about God! Clearly a violation of the 10C, but he had not gone too far. to be restored, all he needed to do was to confess and submit. What was the difference? There was a point where Satan had gone too far. EGW talks about that. And, there was NO REMEDY. WHY? What is your answer? The genomic view has an answer.
Originally Posted By: NJK
Well, you’ll need to present that “good genetic answer” because seed could only mean “descendants/offspring”. And it was the woman through whom sin originated in mankind!

Adam's sin was MUCH WORSE than Eve's. Eve was deceived. Adam was not. Put Adam's sin in view of the idea that sin originates in solely in the mind. it is harder to explain it that way.

As for the seed (offspring, genetic material) being of the woman, what does a man contribute to the offspring? 23 chromosomes surrounded by a cap with a flagellum. That's it. The woman supplies the cell, the cytoplasm, but cellular machinery, and something much more interesting, small interfering RNA molecules. Without the sRNA molecules, you will never get a fetus. They are necessary to suppress the TEs in the male's DNA. There is lots of science to back this up. And it would take hours to explain. The Bible is right and right from a scientific point of view.
Originally Posted By: NJK
It does not take much linguistic/colloquial understanding to see that, in that context the “nature of sin” here simply refers to how evil/dangerous/deadly sin actually is.

What you have to explain is why is sin so deadly. So far, your only explanation is that it is because God has barred the sinner from the Tree of Life. So, is sin deadly, or lack of eating from the Tree of Life the real issue?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131819
03/14/11 07:45 PM
03/14/11 07:45 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
My view that man was dying from creation had been based on my mistranslation of Gen 2:17b. So I’ll agree that entropy in man did not exist prior to the first missed Fruit of Life taking at its scheduled time. Same with nature with the withdrawal of the “fruit” ingredient.


Ok. So you're saying man was not created "naturally dying," but that this became his condition when he partook of the forbidden fruit. That's correct?


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #131820
03/14/11 10:42 PM
03/14/11 10:42 PM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Originally Posted By: NJK
Interesting List and comments on DA 764 and that It Is Finished chapter. I do not agree with it however. I see that the “this” in DA 764.2 refers back to chief sentence of the preceding paragraph (764.1): “This [the destruction of the wicked] is not an act of arbitrary power on the part of God.”


It can include this too, but the "this" has to include what was just being talked about. It can't be dealing with something unrelated to what she just said, which was, "the glory of Him who is love will destroy them." "This" is what they didn't understand.

Quote:
So the rebellion of Satan had to be allowed to be played out until the Cross to demonstrate that their sin was fully deserving of death.


That could be a possible interpretation, if she has something along these lines, but she didn't. Instead, she spoke of how the wicked receive the results of their choice.

The primary definition of "arbitrary" is:

Quote:
1: depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by law <the manner of punishment is arbitrary>


In saying that the destruction of the wicked was not due to an arbitrary act of power on the part of God, but due to the choice of the wicked, she means their destruction is not dependent upon God's individual discretion, acting out the part of a judge, but is the result of their own choice. And the rest of the paragraph explains that.

Quote:
That is what was finally “Finished” on the Cross.


She doesn't make this argument. Instead she explains that the destruction of the wicked is a result of their own choice. If she had in mind what you were saying, she would have had to have said something along the lines of "God is right to use an act of power to destroy the wicked, for this is just and righteous, because (list reasons). Instead she argues that the wicked are not destroyed by an act of power of God, but as a result of their own choice (she lists the reasons).

Quote:
The Angels fully knew that sin causes death long before that.


No, they didn't understand this until the cross. Remember, the second death is the context. It wasn't until the cross that the second death was understood, because nobody had experienced that death until then.

Quote:
They did not need the Cross to realize this, but solely the GC history and development of it before that.


They needed the cross to understand. That is the "this" that they didn't understand in DA 764. She says precisely this, that the angels did not understand that the inevitable result of sin was death.

Quote:
What they wouldn’t have understood before this GC development was that Satan’s sin as it then inceptively was, was deserving of their death.


She nowhere says this in the passage. Instead she says had God "left" Satan and his follower to reap the full result of their sin, they would have perished, but the angels would not have understood that their death was the inevitable result of sin. The cross is what made this clear.

There's no argument being made that it is just on God's part to destroy the wicked.

Quote:
What they realized at the Cross was the (1) true motives, (2) concealed great hatred and jealousy of Satan towards God and Christ and also (3) the great price that it would take to redeem anyone who sinned: namely the (eternal?) death of God.


These are some things they understood. They also understood that the inevitable result of sin is death, and that when God eventually leaves Satan and his followers to suffer death, that this is what is happening, as opposed to their being destroyed by an arbitrary act of power on the part of God.

Quote:
This hatred and jealousy of Christ by Satan that the SOP detailedly speaks of, also delving into revealed inner feelings and sentiments, these angels may have never known nor understood until they saw it for themselves at the Cross and it thus shocked them that this destruction of God/Christ had been Satan’s real/full plan all along.


Yes, this is true. This is a portion of what the chapter discusses.

Particularly interesting here is her application of Rev. 12 to the cross (i.e., that there was a war in heaven, and Satan was "cast down").

Quote:
By the way I specifically understand John 3:16 as Jesus now being the only accepted way to regain this Life, and thus without faith in him it indeed becomes impossible to have. My question however now is, does He still now, i.e., since His death, still have the divine nature in him to, as it appears to be the case, tangibly provide this physical life to man through these supernatural ingredients being injected into the Water of Life flowing from God’s thrown and alimenting the Tree of Life growing on its banks.


This is too long a sentence. Could you break this up into several sentences please? It sounds like your idea is that Jesus Christ is temporarily playing the part of the Tree of Life(?)

Quote:
So I still see the eternal life of man as wholly depending on a physical transmission from Christ and not merely for the indirect, ethereal spiritual reasons that you seems to have.


This is difficult to follow. Scripture says that when one has Christ, one has life. Jesus Christ said, "I am the life." Also, "I am the resurrection and the life." Also "I am the way, the truth, and the life."

We receive life by receiving Christ. I've been saying this all along. What's "ethereal spiritual" about this?

What I've been asserting is that Scripture teaches that:

1.Death comes as a result of sin.
2.Eternal life is a gift of God, which one receives through faith in Christ.

Do you disagree that this is what Scripture teaches?

Also, I request a brief summary of the Great Controversy from your perspective, similar to what I provided. Did you write something up? My apologies if you did so and I missed it.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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