I guess, "What really happened?" would be a good question to ask. If our ideas lead us to ideas that have God acting completely out of character, perhaps we should question those ideas.

M: Based on the above, is there any doubt in your mind as to where and from whom Ellen believed the fire came from that killed Nadab and Abihu? I believe it is crystal clear she believed it came from the presence of God in the most holy place. Do you agree? If not, can you produce positive proof from the SOP she believed it was in fact Satan who employed the fire that killed them?

K: In the Bible it says God slew Saul. You personally were not aware of any place where it says differently. That doesn't mean that it doesn't say differently. Suppose that part of the Bible, which you were not aware of, wasn't in there. That still doesn't mean God slew Saul. If there were no such occurrences in the Bible, then I would agree with you. But as Tom and I have pointed out several examples to you, shouldn't that make you think there may be other things going on? I believe you have said yourself that God assumes responsibility for the universe. When a boss or project leader assumes responsibility, that doesn't mean he caused the mess-up (or success!) but that he takes the responsibility for what happened. A project leader is expected to control/coerce what happens. In the great controversy, do you think God's purpose is to control and coerce everything that happens or is there another purpose? You have a presumed premise of what fire is, the purpose is, and see a binomial effect that either God killed them or Satan killed them. Could there be other alternatives? How does that match with what Tom has quoted Ellen White as saying numerous times from the Great Controversy?

M: If the fire that blazed out from the presence of God in the most holy place and burned N&A alive did not, in fact, blaze out from the presence of God in the most holy place and burn N&A alive, where, then, did the fire come from, and from whom? If it wasn't "fire" that blazed out from the presence of God in the most holy place that killed N&A, what, then, killed them? And, why did Ellen clearly say it was fire that blazed out from the presence of God in the most holy place that killed N&A?

K: Are you aware of places in the bible where "fire" is not as you think of it as?

M: Again, the question remains - Why did such a loving, merciful, forgiving God command godly people to kill ungodly people?

T: Do you picture God as being this way? That is, is this something you see Jesus/God doing?

1. In the OT, did Jesus ever command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?

2. In the OT, did Jesus ever command godly people to execute capital punishment?

3. In the OT, did Jesus ever withdraw His protection and permit the forces of nature or evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children?

T: "What really happened?" would be a good question to ask. If our ideas lead us to ideas that have God acting completely out of character, perhaps we should question those ideas.

M: I believe the answer to the three questions listed above is - Yes! The language employed in the OT makes it crystal clear that Jesus did indeed command the first two and did the third. In fact, we both agree Jesus did the third. Do you agree Jesus commanded the first two? Or, do you suspect the language employed in the OT misrepresents what Jesus really commanded? For example:


Again, the question remains - Why did such a loving, merciful, forgiving God command godly people to kill ungodly people?

I just quoted GC and said I thought the same principles applied. I spelled out in detail what I thought that meant. I disagree with your assessment in regards to what you think I seem to be suggesting.



What you said? No. I think she would agree with the idea that the same principles were in effect, however, if we could ask her now.



No.



As I said, I think the same principles were at work here as in the GC chapter on the Destruction of Jerusalem. I think these are principles at work in all such incidents, as I explained. I see no reason why she would need to repeat this for every such incident in Scripture. We should be able to figure out what the principles are by which God runs His government, and apply them to other situations, don't you think?

I would agree that if it is our ideas leading us astray, we should question those ideas. However, how would we know? If it is our own ideas at fault, chances are, we are ignorant of being in the wrong. Most people don't walk around thinking that their ideas are wrong.

Which brings us to a hard and solid fact: The Bible must be trusted over and above any of our ideas. This is what brings us to a certain need for diligence and setting aside of personal opinions, biases, or prejudices when studying the Word of God.

Ultimately, what seems right often isn't. Therefore, our ideas about God's character must not dictate to us our doctrine. We must base both on the Bible, not upon reason.

Exodus
22:20 He that sacrificeth unto [any] god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.

Numbers
15:35 And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.

Deuteronomy
2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:
20:17 But thou shalt utterly destroy them; [namely], the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee:

Joshua
10:40 So Joshua smote all the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded.

Yes. In fact, I suspect the "fire" that blazed out from the presence of God in the most holy place and killed N&A was the radiant light of God's person and presence. Do you agree? If not, what do you think killed N&A?

When the Bible clearly says Jesus commanded one and two above and did the third, is it appropriate to take God at His word?

Those who take God at His word, and obey His commandments with the whole heart, will be blessed.

It is our privilege to take God at his word.

Said the angel: "Feeling is not faith. Faith is simply to take God at His word."

Come to the Scriptures and intelligently take God at His word.

Take God at His word, and work in faith. Satan will come with his suggestions to make you distrust the word of your heavenly Father; but consider, "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin." Press your faith through the dark shadow of Satan, and lodge it upon the mercy seat, and let not one doubt be entertained. This is the only way in which you will gain an experience, and find the evidence so essential for your peace and confidence.

We must take God at His word, and believe that He will do just as He has said. If He chastises us, it is that we may be partakers of His divine nature.

Some men seem afraid to take God at His word as though it would be presumption in them. They pray for the Lord to teach us and yet are afraid to credit the pledged word of God and believe we have been taught of Him.... You must not for a moment doubt Him and dishonor Him thereby.

The Lord works in cooperation with the will and action of the human agent. It is the privilege and duty of every man to take God at His word, to believe in Jesus as his personal Saviour, and to respond eagerly, immediately, to the gracious propositions which He makes. He is to study to believe and obey the divine instruction in the Scriptures. He is to base his faith not on feeling but upon the evidence and the Word of God (MS 3, 1895).

Or, should we assume since Jesus didn't do either one of the three while here in the flesh that He didn't do either of them in the OT? For example:


What is the truth regarding the passages above as it relates to the three questions above?

I was giving this topic some thought, or at least the theme, and part of the big picture.
In those ancient times, the Israelites were God's people, His children, and if any of you are parents, what would you do for your children to protect them?
I know that when the Amelekites were not slaughtered as God commanded, this resulted in Haman remaining alive, and genocide against the Israelites was a very real possibility.
God Bless,
-Will

1. In the OT, did Jesus ever command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?

2. In the OT, did Jesus ever command godly people to execute capital punishment?

3. In the OT, did Jesus ever withdraw His protection and permit the forces of nature or evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children?