|
Forums118
Topics9,194
Posts195,567
Members1,323
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
3 registered members (ProdigalOne, 2 invisible),
2,886
guests, and 18
spiders. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#132007
03/21/11 02:27 AM
03/21/11 02:27 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
|
|
The truth is, Jesus did not repeat all of His history for us in a short 3.5 years. He did not, for example, create our world and all of its myriad organisms during those years. And yet, we know from the Old Testament how He did this. The lame walk and blind see. People raised from the dead. His re-creative power was clearly seen.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
|
|
|
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: APL]
#132016
03/21/11 04:38 PM
03/21/11 04:38 PM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
GC: The truth is, Jesus did not repeat all of His history for us in a short 3.5 years. He did not, for example, create our world and all of its myriad organisms during those years. And yet, we know from the Old Testament how He did this.
APL: The lame walk and blind see. People raised from the dead. His re-creative power was clearly seen. More to the point, the pretentious fig tree Jesus cursed withered and died within a day.
|
|
|
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#132027
03/21/11 08:49 PM
03/21/11 08:49 PM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
This is from a book by Greg Boyd called, "Is God To Blame?" This book offers a very different picture of God. Thought it will be new to some, it really is not new at all, for it is rooted in the biblical depiction of Jesus Christ. When someone asked jesus to show him God the Father, Jesus said, "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father" (Jn 14:9). In essence, Jesus was saying, "I am your picture of God." Many people construct their picture of God from various philosophical premises or their own life experience. But while philosophical thinking can be helpful and life experiences cannot be ignored, Jesus tells us that our understanding of God should be centered on him. This is why the Bible calls him the "Word," the "image" and the "exact imprint" of God (Jn 1:1; 2 Cor 3:17--4:6; Col 1:15;Heb 1:3).
The foundation for this book--and I believe for Christianity as a whole--is the c laim that God looks like Jesus. As we will see, Jesus spent his ministry freeing people from evil and misery. This is what God seeks to do. Jesus wars against spiritual forces that oppress people and resist God's good purposes. This is what God does. Jesus loved people others rejected--even people who rejected him. This is how God loves. ... There are some statements which are more directly to the point of the discussion we're having, and some by Ty Gibson as well, but I don't have them with me, and could only quote from a portion of the book (the part they have available as a preview). But it serves to bring out the point I have in mind. What we're dealing with here is the issue of how to know what God is like. EGW wrote that all that we can know of God was revealed by His Son (speaking of His life on earth with us). This is in contrast to the idea that part of what we can know of God was revealed by Jesus Christ while here in the flesh, but part was not. The question arises, was God really like Jesus Christ in the flesh? Or not really. Just sort of. Jesus showed one side of God, one facet of His character, but to really know God, we need to add to the picture that Jesus Christ portrayed the violent episodes of the Old Testament. Is violence a part of God's character? A part of His government? If we look at Jesus Christ's testimony, it isn't. If we look at the Old Testament, it certainly appears that the message is "My way, or the Highway." What's the true picture of God? Jesus Christ? Or Jesus Christ + Old Testament? It could be argued that this is a false dichotomy, but if this is the case, then why do we need the Old Testament to know what God is like? Isn't Jesus Christ sufficient? Also, if it is true that all that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son while here in the flesh, then again, isn't Jesus Christ sufficient?
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#132030
03/22/11 12:47 AM
03/22/11 12:47 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2020
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
|
|
GC: The truth is, Jesus did not repeat all of His history for us in a short 3.5 years. He did not, for example, create our world and all of its myriad organisms during those years. And yet, we know from the Old Testament how He did this.
APL: The lame walk and blind see. People raised from the dead. His re-creative power was clearly seen. More to the point, the pretentious fig tree Jesus cursed withered and died within a day. I posted a reply to this but I do not see it here any more. Don't know what happened. So, I'll try to say it again... Read Desire of Ages chapter 64, and there is a discussion of the Fig Tree that Jesus cursed. What we find plays right into what Tom has been saying. I won't quote the whole chapter. :-) The cursing of the fig tree was an acted parable. That barren tree, flaunting its pretentious foliage in the very face of Christ, was a symbol of the Jewish nation. The Saviour desired to make plain to His disciples the cause and the certainty of Israel's doom. OK - so this parable is to tell us the cause of Israel's doom! Withered beneath the Saviour's curse, standing forth sere and blasted, dried up by the roots, the fig tree showed what the Jewish people would be when the grace of God was removed from them. Refusing to impart blessing, they would no longer receive it. "O Israel," the Lord says, "thou hast destroyed thyself." Hosea 13:9. {DA 583.2} And the end of the chapter we read... Christ foresaw that Jerusalem would remain obdurate and impenitent; yet all the guilt, all the consequences of rejected mercy, lay at her own door. Thus it will be with every soul who is following the same course. The Lord declares, "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself." "Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto My words, nor to My law, but rejected it." Hosea 13:9; Jeremiah 6:19. {DA 588.2}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
|
|
|
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: APL]
#132042
03/22/11 04:00 PM
03/22/11 04:00 PM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
APL, yes, thank you. When Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted evil angels to influence enemy soldiers to attack Jerusalem the Jews suffered a terrible slaughter. Jesus wept.
|
|
|
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#132044
03/22/11 05:07 PM
03/22/11 05:07 PM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Also, if it is true that all that we can know of God was revealed in the life and character of His Son while here in the flesh, then again, isn't Jesus Christ sufficient? Yes, of course, Jesus is more than sufficient. But "all that man needs to know or can know of God" (see quote and context below) is not sufficient to understand "his strange act" (Isa 28:21). Ellen wrote - "To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act." {GC 627.2} "The work of wrath and destruction is indeed a strange, unwelcome work for Him who is infinite in love." {ST, August 24, 1882 par. 15} Jesus has not seen fit to explain everything there is to know about His "ministration of wrath." Ellen wrote: God in his infinite mercy bears long with the transgressors of his law. In the days of Abraham he declared that the idolatrous Amorites should still be spared until the fourth generation; for their iniquity was not yet full, and he could not give command for their destruction. For more than four hundred years he spared them, but when, instead of turning to repentance, they hardened their hearts in iniquity, and made war upon his people, their day of probation closed, and the mandate went forth for their utter extinction. With unerring accuracy, the Infinite One keeps a record of the impiety of nations and individuals. Long is his mercy tendered to them, with calls to repentance; but when their guilt reaches a certain limit, which he has fixed, then mercy ceases her pleadings, and the ministration of wrath begins. {LP 318.1} I realize you believe Jesus punishes and destroys sinners by withdrawing His protection and permitting the forces of nature or evil men and/or evil angels to kill them, however, in the passage above it is clear Jesus commanded Moses to utterly kill every man, woman, and child. Moses wrote: Deut 3:2-6
And the LORD said unto me . . . thou shalt do unto him as thou didst unto Sihon king of the Amorites . . . and we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. However, it would be a terrible mistake to assume Ellen thought the OT fails to portray Jesus accurately. She wrote: The Saviour is revealed in the Old Testament as clearly as in the New. It is the light from the prophetic past that brings out the life of Christ and the teachings of the New Testament with clearness and beauty. {DA 799.2}
Genuine religion is based upon a belief in the Scriptures. God's Word is to be believed without question. No part of it is to be cut and carved to fit certain theories. Men are not to exalt human wisdom by sitting in judgment upon God's Word. The Bible was written by holy men of old, as they were moved upon by the Holy Spirit, and this Book contains all that we know for certain and all that we can ever hope to learn in regard to God and Christ, unless, like Paul, we are taken to the third heaven to hear "unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter" (2 Corinthians 12:4). This revelation to the apostle did not spoil his humility. {9MR 300.1}
The life of a Christian is a life regulated by the Word of God just as it reads. All the truths of the Old and the New Testaments form a complete whole. These truths we are to cherish, believe, and obey. To the true disciple, faith in God's Word is a living, active principle; for "with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation" (Romans 10:10). By faith man believes that he receives the righteousness of Christ. {9MR 300.2}
|
|
|
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#132045
03/22/11 05:31 PM
03/22/11 05:31 PM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Tom, please respond to post 131970 and 131971.
|
|
|
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#132053
03/22/11 08:26 PM
03/22/11 08:26 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
|
|
APL, yes, thank you. When Jesus withdrew His protection and permitted evil angels to influence enemy soldiers to attack Jerusalem the Jews suffered a terrible slaughter. Jesus wept. Then, I didn't understand your comment about the fig tree.
|
|
|
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#132061
03/23/11 01:35 AM
03/23/11 01:35 AM
|
OP
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019
20000+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
|
|
Kland, the cursing of the fig tree speaks to the third question.
1. In the OT, did Jesus ever command godly people to kill ungodly people in battle?
2. In the OT, did Jesus ever command godly people to execute capital punishment?
3. In the OT, did Jesus ever withdraw His protection and permit the forces of nature or evil men, and/or evil angels to kill men, women, and children?
|
|
|
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death?
[Re: Mountain Man]
#132063
03/23/11 03:03 AM
03/23/11 03:03 AM
|
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
|
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
|
|
Tom, please respond to post 131970 and 131971. Regarding 13670, I asked if you see God/Jesus as One who commands godly people to kill ungodly people. According to how you answered the question, it appears you think this is the way God/Jesus is. I see a couple of problems with this view, not the least of which is if you believe me to be an ungodly person, you could well think it God's will that you kill me, or kill my friends or loved ones. Regarding 13671, it looks to me like you aren't grasping the principles spoken of broadly enough. Or, rather, you are applying the principles to narrowly, in my opinion. I believe the principle is that there are a thousand dangers from which God protects us, and if we reject His protection, then we are in danger from these thousand dangers. It's not just Satan directly taking action against us that is addressed.
Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
