HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US


Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums & Chat Rooms
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested $20 or Higher Donations Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading
Donations accepted: Here
Shout Box

Newest Members
Heidi K, Frmdusk2dawn, Fred88, Christian G, The Wanderer
1291 Registered Users
Forum Stats
1291 Members
118 Forums
8571 Topics
183744 Posts

Max Online: 1283 @ 05/14/17 03:59 PM
Who's OnIine In
Chat Room #1?
Right Click Here & Select "Open in New Tab or Window" to Enter Chat Room #1 or Just Simply Click Here
Join the following presently in Chat Room #1:

Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

Top Posters (30 Days)
dedication 46
APL 38
Alchemy 35
Elle 13
ProdigalOne 11
Mark Shipowick 11
kland 11
December
Su M Tu W Th F Sa
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Featured Member
Registered: 03/21/10
Posts: 1138
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
7 registered (Alchemy, daylily, ProdigalOne, Pete P Pete, 3 invisible), 294 Guests and 9 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Page 4 of 14 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 13 14 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#132622 - 04/12/11 09:33 AM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: Elle]
Elle Offline
Active Member 2017
Most Dedicated Member
Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 2287
Loc: Canada
Part 2 of 2 (of NJK Part 3 post)

Purpose of Reason
Originally Posted By: NJK
Originally Posted By: Elle
We do have a mind with the ability to reason, but this reasoning was never design to conduct our own life.
Reason about what then, since in your view that is pointless.

Up to now I have found one text in the Bible that explicitly tells us the purpose of reasoning. I haven’t really applied myself to study this yet. I came across this text when studying some other stuff.

Ps 47:7 “For God is the king of all the earth: sing ye praises with understanding ”(sakal, intelligence)

I’m sure there’s more but I haven’t digged them out yet. One additional thing I would like to mention regarding for the reason why God gaved us the ability to reason, is God created the Heavens and the earth. In Heaven, God created the angels to be His witness in heaven and to establish things there via the angels. To do that, he gives certains Angels authority. However, their authority is not beyond the King of King and it is always to be used to be an extension of God Himself in them serving others and to establish His Laws and ways in the Kingdom. The same applies for the Kingdom on earth. God gives authority to men to rule and establish God’s ways and rule on earth. God does not give authority to angels to establish things on earth, or men to establish things in heaven. So for the kingdom of God to be establish on earth, trusted matured men are needs to be given the authority. In Gen 1:26-28 we have God giving Adam this authority when He said “

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27. So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28. And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

This was the first authority given to man and this authority was always passed down to a son of God’s choosing. So it is God’s purpose that man can mature into “sonship of God” and be an overcomer having the fullness of God dwelling in them so that they can be an extention of God’s mind and will on earth to rule and subdue the earth according to God’s Laws. This is another purpose of God giving us the ability to reason, for if we have God’s ways and mind inprinted in our minds thus become an image of God, then we can rule this earth in Righteousness and Justice. But this to be an ability, we need to know His Laws first, and God’s mind and God’s Heart so we can recognize His voice and His ways when He speaks to us in that small still voice.

Originally Posted By: NJK
Here is the 180 switch that God allows and considers in one’s “reason”: Isa 1:18-20; cf. 21ff.

Is 1:18 “Come now, and let-us-reason-together, saith the Lord: ” let-us-reason-together is one Hebrew word Yakach H3198. The literal translation of this word should be “and-we-shall-correct”.
Originally Posted By: Yakach H3198
H3198 yakach yaw-kahh'

a primitive root;

to be right (i.e. correct); reciprocal, to argue; causatively, to decide, justify or convict.

KJV: AV — reprove 23, rebuke 12, correct 3, plead 3, reason 2, chasten 2, reprover + 0376 2, appointed 1, arguing 1, misc 9

You can see that the Hebrew word Yakach was mainly translated as reprove, rebuke, and correct. It was only translated twice as reason. Reason somehow needs to come in the definition of being rebuked, as I recalled looking at these texts, I could see the primary meaning of reprove in the contexts. But I need to review these to have a better grip of extracting the proper definition and come to know God’s definition of this word.

So the Lord’s invitation here is not ‘to come and reason together’ but according to the Concordant literal translation Is 1:18 “Go you! Please! and we-shall-correct saith Yahveh…

I discovered this just 2 months ago when I made an attempt to study the purpose for our reasoning abilities. I decided to start with Is 1:18 and look at all the occurences of Yakach in the Bible. When I started to note down in my study journal Strong’s word definition, I was totally stunned. It was not what I expected and since I had already written everything out in the journal, I decided to just go ahead and finish that word study. Then after I got distracted with others studies since there are always so many coming to the surface. So I never got to tackle this study yet.

Many times by studying specific words and deriving the meaning from the context, has changed my view quite a bit. What I discovered that our meanings of words in the english (or French) language has the world/pagans definition embedded in them. I saw that I had to redefine words according to the Hebrew philosophy which I believe it is in harmony with God’s thinking and language.
So from this word study I found a gem text that I use quite often. It is Hab 1:12.

We’re Ordained for Judgment and Established For Correction

Hab 1:12 Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction(YaKach)”.

God’s plan of salvation is layed out very clearly here in perspective of time, in perspective if any of us will die, in perspective how he will deal with his children. He has ordained us for judgment. Currently, I’m studying God’s judgment. Just like any other words, we can have the world perspective in our definition and we could have an incorrect view and understanding of God’s judgment. So, we need to always seek God’s view and definition. Currently the North America’s justice system is geared up to be a punitive system where the judgment is a punishment and afterward the criminal’s is put in prison where there’s no true restorative aid for him available, and the criminal didn’t have the chance to pay for the damage according to the law of Moses therefore the victims never received proper restitution for the wrong commited to them. Our society defines that justice is served if the criminal is put to prison or put to death. True justice is only serve when restitution is given to the victim and the criminal is restore. This is God’s way to bring true justice. All His Laws given to Moses defines the proper restitution for an offence. Where there is stoning it spiritually means the law.

Satan Temptation at the Tree & Freewill

Originally Posted By: NJK
Originally Posted By: Elle
That’s what Satan was promoting at the tree of knowledge. Nor does this “freewill” determine whether or not we are saved like most Christianity says that it is the determining factor.
How could God allow Satan to tempt man with something that actually is not feasible. I.e., get freewill?? And didn’t God say, when Adam and Eve sinned that they had indeed achieved what Satan was offering them (Gen 3:22a)

The illusion that decisions or the will comes from us is very persuasive and very hard to see God behind the scene. God chose it this way, to be invisible. Accepting the possibility that our thinking was ‘our will’ was by ‘design’ very persuasive for we were incredibly wonderfully made. So that’s how Satan could ‘tempt’ us. I don’t believe Satan was tempting us at all, he believed this himself. He really believed that we could figure out how to lead our own life by knowing what was good or bad and we didn’t need to be under God’s authority.

Originally Posted By: NJK
Originally Posted By: Elle
We were design to be “moved” by His Spirit at all time by having His Spirit perpetually indwell in us.
Clearly not over 99% of us since they are not full commandment keeping Christians!! Thus God never wired them to be saved and be moved by His Spirit, right??

It is not over NJK. There’s still lots of time ahead and God’s plan has steps. Soon we will enter in the millennium age where the Kingdom of God will be given to His Saints.

God’s Will vs. Us breaking God’s Laws

Originally Posted By: NJK
Originally Posted By: Elle
The big deception lies in the realm of the purpose of the intelligence and our perception of the source of our powers. Most of the time we are moved from the inside out. That’s why it is so hard to distinguish contrary if we saw a physical big hand from heaven guiding us at all time. God’s presence is very hard to distinguish and we can be easily deceived in believing that what we do see our self doing, come from us versus the reality it comes from God; therefore we oftentimes “steal” God’s glory and change the truth into a lie.(Rom 1:21,22,25)
Again how, in your view, can man be doing anything against God’s will.

It is true that God ultimately allows everything that happens. But that doesn’t means that what is happening is in harmony with His laws and His ways. He allowed it because He’s merciful and longsuffering and is Wise and all powerful. He understands our immaturity state and has taken charged to teach His Children and to bring them in harmony with His Ways and Laws. This is His will. So things are moving along according to His will despite that we are still not full grown yet, and are breaking His laws. Since He is Sovereign He is ultimately responsible for everything that happens since He allowed this from the beginning, and has the control to stop everything and anything.

If God is Sovereign over our Will, what’s the point of convincing about the Truth?

Originally Posted By: NJK
And what’s the point of trying to convince anyone of this supposed “Biblical/Theological teaching”?? What actual difference will it make since God overridingly decides who will be save or not, obedient or disobedient??

Our function is to teach God’s ways and mind according to the Laws of Moses. As part of the Holy Priesthood, we are to eat the sin offering which means to bear the sins of our fellowman in intercession prayers and teaching them God’s Laws and to instruct them how to make full restitution for their sins. When we do that and teaching them about the ways of God in His Kingdom, we unite with God’s effort to teach His children and get that brain properly wired to know and to trust God.

Cruise Control Analogy

Originally Posted By: NJK
If my cruise control (= free will) does not work, then by pressing my accelerator (evil choices) or brakes (good choices), I am in no way “overriding anything at all” My cruise control was never active and controlling the speed of my car!!


Since when does a car drives itself? Your error is assuming that the car can drive itself, just as you are assuming that we can drive ourself. That’s the whole point of the fatality of the “freewill” concept error. We cannot drive ourself anymore than a car can. The one that put on the cruise control, presses on the brakes and the accelerator is God, not us. Plus, cruise control needs electricity, and a mechanic to maintain it when it wears off.

Originally Posted By: Elle
The Turning of the Farmer’s Ox
Originally Posted By: NJK
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
In regards to Jer 31:18, 19, I exegetically see that the most accurate reading should be:
‘After I turned [active verb - Qal], my ‘mind was changed’ [passive verb - Niphal] and after that I was instructed... [passive verb - Niphal]...’ (cf. NASB).
This shows that the active “turning” action was first done, then their my was (passively) “changed” and then “instructed” by God.

Originally Posted By: Elle
Well, I did check the verbs in my interlinear/ literal translation software,

Good laymen’s/starter study tool!

:+)
Is there a Good Hebrew Literal Interlinear Bible Available Anywhere?

Originally Posted By: NJK
Originally Posted By: Elle
I’m not at that level in my Hebrew to distinguish the accuracy of it, and my literal translation seem to agree in an active verb for “to-turn-away-of me”, however the remaining 5 verbs seems to be all in passive along that texts.
An Interlinear’s English text is usually based upon a major English version, hence probably the non-exact reading here for instead a reading according to the understood sense of the translators.

Oh! My interlinear is not English based it is a Hebrew literal translation done by Concordant and is available for free at scripture4all.org I had checked a few verses with the Tanakh and they seem to agree. It’s a very nice software and very good literal translation.

BTW. Would you know if there’s available a good Hebrew literal English translation of the OT with the Masoretic text and the Strong codes available? I have here Green’s 4 volume set and it’s just junk. There’s some good literal translation, but most is the same English incorrect translation that he seems to follow KJV translation.

Does the Bull Turn Himself?

Originally Posted By: NJK
Originally Posted By: Elle
But taken that verse into context and deriving it’s meaning from the context, I understand the following :
Ephraim (nation whom the birthright is rightly his, and not to Judah) is symbolized “as a bullock” that was plowing a field. God the farmer, is the one to turn his bullock. We know that “to turn” also means to repent, as to go in another direction. It is not the ox place to turn himself, but it is the responsibility of the farmer/God. The problem is that this “bullock” was not accustomed to being obedient to the Farmer.

The passage says that after God turned him, he turned(or repented). The context does not say that Ephraim first repented and then God turned him, as if God were reacting to His “bullock.” God holds the reins. He is the One in control of the bullock as a sovereign God and owner of the bull should be. So this places the order of how things works. God initiate things in order that it will be accomplished.
Agreed... in part. Indeed, Jer 31:18 the same word “turn” occurs twice in the statement:
Originally Posted By: Bible Jer 31:18 NASB
Like an untrained calf; Bring me back (Hiphil - lit. ‘cause me to turn’) that I may be restored (Qal - lit. ‘may turn’), For You are the LORD my God.

While God does initiate the turning, it is the person who is to complete it. This is just like the farmer indicating to the bulls to turn and then they, of their own force turn. So this is just like a inceptive calling of God for people to turn as seen in the Bible and once that calling is heed and people have to complete/do this act of turning themselves. Then after that have “turned” (vs. 19, continuing the non-causative Qal verbal form), then their mind was changed. Etc.

I’m glad you agree that God initiate the turning, and it is true that the person/bull does turn, but it is not they that completes it alone. The Bible and Jesus said that there’s nothing we can do without God. Absolutely nothing and that includes all the chemical reactions that happens in our body and muscles activation to make that turn.

Nothing is Automatic in this Universe

I agree with EGW in her statement that there’s nothing in this universe that is automatic. I am quoting EGW to spare me some typing and her writing is better than mine, but there’s lots of scriptures that says that God guides all things and I can bring Biblical support if you would like.
Originally Posted By: MH 417.1
“God is constantly employed in upholding and using as His servants the things that He has made. He works through the laws of nature, using them as His instruments. They are not self-acting. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will.

It is not by inherent power that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of the Infinite One is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power continually exercised that keeps the earth in position in its rotation. It is God who causes the sun to rise in the heavens. He opens the windows of heaven and gives rain.

It is by His power that vegetation is caused to flourish, that every leaf appears, every flower blooms, every fruit develops.

The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism, is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God. ” {MH 417.1}

So God is behind the bull’s turning also in every tiniest possible step that orchestrates the turn. That is why it is truthfully written “For it is God which worketh in you BOTH to WILL and TO DO of his good pleasure. ” Phil 2:13

Originally Posted By: NJK
Originally Posted By: Elle
None of us will be saved unless God is behind every step. Man can not do anything without God.
Jer 31:18, 19 actually shows that while God may initiate (in mercy vs. 20b = God’s calling), man, like the bull, has to, of their own volition/strength follow through. The farmer cannot turn the 1000+ pound ox if they refuse to obey that turning prompting. Hence the need of whips as I understand to force then if necessary.

God knows when it is time to give the command to turn. God will not issue a command out of season and He never ‘miss the mark’.

Mat 28 and God’s way to Teach

Originally Posted By: NJK
Originally Posted By: Elle
No man can come to the Father, except the Father drags him.

That direct divine calling was only initially being done whenever applicable in the early days of the small NT Church. However very early Christ sent out disciples to go and call others to the Truth, with many have the choice to obey or not (e.g, Matt 10:5-7; 14, 15). However today, this calling is mainly recursively done through Christ’s followers again according to His instruction (Matt 28:19, 20). If God was actively doing, in all cases, a ‘dragging to the truth’, and an ‘irresistible one at that’ then there would be absolutely no need for Christians to do any Evangelism. Just leave the Church doors open and wait for “forcefully dragged” people to be “dragged” in, and, of course, against their (“non”) will.

The command that Christ gaved in Mat 28:20 was to “teach” them to-be-keeping all things “I-direct”(g1781) to you. So this is our commission. We are to teach others not in the fashion of the evangelistic seminars SDAs do today. This was never Jesus fashion of teachings. But to work side by side with his disciples in going town to town to relieve the sufferings. In doing that, the student learns very fast and much by example. Plus the heart of the student is bonded to His teacher which facilitate the learning and the teacher can correct them more efficiently. The teacher opens up Scriptures and teaching them God’s moral Laws, how God defines sins, how God rule the land and nations, how God corrects the people, how God will Restore His people, Nations, His Kingdom on Earth. In this way the teacher reveals God’s heart and mind in His Plan of Salvation. All these things are shown via the teachings the Laws of Moses – the Type – the foundation of All TRUTH, and the prophets – the Application of the Type.

Why Many today Leave the Church and Where is God’s Church

Originally Posted By: NJK
How do you explain the many people who backslide and abandon the faith annually who once came to the truth, clearly, according to your view, only by God forcing will. In the SDA Church alone that is ca. 1300 per day who leave the Church. In your view no Christian are actually called by God unless God is dragging people to any Christian Church instead on His only True Church? And, according to you, what ‘singular Church’ would that be (as it sequiturly/logically have to be)??

As explained in the Natural Man section in the post above, God left us to the subjection of our heart, so to humble us when we can see that there’s nothing good in it. That’s how he corrects us. He overrule our “will” when it is contrary to His grand plan.

Since God worketh all things and has established all authorities on earth, then we can say that the Church we are in right now and its existence was God’s will despite that it is so Laodicean. He can use the Church pathetic state to show us further the nature of our heart.

The reasons people leave the SDA Church is because they don’t have the message, it is a man-led organization, they are only a form of godliness, they do not know nor reflect God’s mind and heart, and they are a business oriented organization. I do believe God has a real Church who are simple people connected to Jesus directly who he is preparing/training them to be one of the overcomers/144K that will rule with Him in this coming Millennium/Tabernacle age. I believe these people are scattered in all different denominations and are not denominationilized.

Originally Posted By: NJK
Originally Posted By: Elle
I do agree that God often leaves the immature saints or the wicked to their own decisions (Rm 1:24, 26, 28; 2Ch 30:7; Ps 81:12 ; Act 7:42)
I thought we couldn’t have or own decisions (= our “overidding” choices)

I forgot to put decision in quotes. As stated in details here under the “Natural Man” title the decision that is executed in our minds is the desires/will that came from whomever we are married to. It is not ours, but we agree with it and have an affinity towards it. Actually, the wicked or immature believers won’t always agree to their hard slavemaster called sin.

Jesus Evangelistic Method via the Elected
Originally Posted By: NJK
Originally Posted By: Elle
however, there are boundaries that even Satan is well aware of them and Satan or anyone cannot do anything unless God allows them.
How do they ever begin to will to go against “God’s irresistible will’ to the point here were God ‘leaves them to their own decisions’

God is first preparing His saints. That’s is His focuss, just like Jesus didn’t focuss on training everyone when He came. His focuss was on the 12 disciples by teaching them personally. They worked together and ministered to the people; however, the disciple’s training was God’s main objective. After His resurrection, there were 40 assembled at the upper room who receive the Holy Spirit. Then afterwards thousands were convicted daily and was added to their numbers.
God has a plan and it doesn’t entails to reach everyone at once. There are 3 harvests depicted in the feasts(Barley/Overcommers, Wheat/believers, and Grapes/unbelievers) which are Types of the order of which God prepares the people.

Sovereignty Means Ultimately in Control of Everything

Originally Posted By: NJK
Originally Posted By: Elle
So God is ultimately in control of everything...
not really according to your sub views

Could you specify my sub views if you still see it after reading all of this. Basically, God is ultimately in control of everything including Satan. Satan cannot do anything unless God allows him. The Bible is clear that Satan is not allow to touch one hair out of head unless he has the permission.

Originally Posted By: NJK
(B) What force/meaning does “ultimately” means since man is not supposed to have any will??

Ultimately means, God is in control over all things and “who worked all things after the counsel of His own will”. Ep 1:11. There’s no being’s “will” that is above God’s. God will overrule any individual “will” if and when it obstructs with His plans. God has all the powers and authority and He gives to whom He pleases according to His Wisdom and plan. Right now Satan has some power and anything the Devil does, God gave him permission first. We see this clearly in the book of Job. Even God brought Job to the attention of Satan(Job 1:8). God knew Satan was going to jump on the occasion and God set up the limits on what Satan could do. God often will bring many hardship to His saints and the nations so they may learn to forgive. Often Christians blames God or fight Satan for their troubles, when their hardship was given by God for their own growth. Satan is God’s servant(Job 41). We need to have the attitude of Joseph who understood that God is behind everything and works things out for their good. This is what I mean by “Ultimately”.

Originally Posted By: NJK
Originally Posted By: Elle
...and nothing is done without his approval.
Approval/Approving of what??? It could only be “approving” a free choice/decision of man!!

Approval of whatever ways our imagination’s(of our idols) pursuit may be whether of the lust, the hatred, the envy, the bitterness, or etc. That means wherever our minds leads us, or whatever events or influence we get, by which our current “choice” reflects these. Our reasoning formulated some “cognitive persuasion” that we need to do this or that. This “persuasion” is a product of the ruling of ignorant and vulnerable corrupted heart filled with vanity and lot’s of imagination. God leaves us to do what our imagination dictates as long as it’s not in the way of His grand plans. However, He also watches over us and will work with where we are at so the consequences of these “choices” can humble us by showing us our natural/wild and vulnerable and ignorant heart.

Summary
Originally Posted By: NJK
You really need to decide how faithful your are going to be to your chief tenet that ‘freewill does not exist as not doing so causes your view to be quite incongruous. I however see then that you will have to outrightly ignore many Scriptures, indeed like your listed: “(Rm 1:24, 26, 28; 2Ch 30:7; Ps 81:12 ; Act 7:42)” as they show that God does leave people to follow their own decision, stemming from their free choices! These are all the signs of a house of teaching that is not built with/on a deeply dug foundation, indeed without any foundation at all, but merely laid upon the surface ground thus a prime candidate to be swept away like a boat by a simple torrential flooding (Luke 6:47-49).

I’m sure this conversation would of taken a different direction, if you had read my first reply of your long and well appreciated 3 part post before writing the two last one. Most likely some of your objections would have been answered in my first reply. So please forgive the redundancy of the replies since your questions was a little redundant also in nature because of what you didn’t know at the time.

I really do appreciate your time in reading and replying thoroughly all my points. Also I appreciate your concern to me that you express in the first sentence of your summary.

I have supplied solid scripture basis and I believe I have been consistent in my presentation and I am not lacking harmony. However, if you see some lack, I would appreciate that you would point them to me. I have maintained the true definition of the Sovereignty of God within the context of sinful man in this GC. Whereas your belief is dualist in nature by saying God is Sovereign on one side and Man’s choice cannot be over-ruled on the other. You are making man’s will above God’s. Thus you’re making man sovereign also. You haven’t given any solid argument up till now to disprove what I’ve presented. Anything you want to add, I’ll be happy to discuss this further.
_________________________
Blessings
Top
#132643 - 04/12/11 10:19 PM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: Elle]
NJK Project Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 1098
Loc: Laval, Quebec
Originally Posted By: Elle
Part 1 of 2 (of NJK Part 3 post)

Using of Helkuo instead of other words available
Originally Posted By: NJK
Interesting word study here, however I think you are overstating its meaning by making it include and affect free will.

I don’t think it is overstating it, for I’m deriving the meaning of helkuo from it’s context of being used in the Bible. I agree that Strong could of have made an error in his difinition in his dictionary, but that can be verified by the usage of the word in context in the Bible which makes clear what is the definition of that word. According to the context of usage, Strong’s definition is correct and it does mean drag.

They had other words to use if they wanted to clearly express your current interpretation of the word. They could of used G1448 eggizo or G4334 proserchomai. These two words would of express your current preference, but they didn’t and they chose G1670 helkuo because that’s what they wanted to give as a meaning including Jesus.

Originally Posted By: Strongs word Definition of DRAW
G1448 eggizo : from G1451; to make near, i.e. (reflexively) approach. KJV: approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh.


G4334 proserchomai : from G4314 and G2064 (including its alternate); to approach, i.e. (literally) come near, visit, or (figuratively) worship, assent to. KJV: (as soon as he) come (unto), come thereunto, consent, draw near, go (near, to, unto).


G1670 helkuo : probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively). Compare G1667. KJV: draw.


Is Jesus Lifted Up Today Vs. God Lift Him up in the Future
Originally Posted By: NJK
One simple text from that group entirely sink your ‘no free will, irresistible pulling’ claim, and that is Christ’s statement in John 12:32. If Christ “drew all to Him when He was lifted up on the Cross, the why have billions of people since that event not become Christians?? Clearly one still has the free will to accept or reject Christianity.

John 12:32 saysif I be lifted up”

Currently, with our old covenant tinted Gospel, Christ is not being lifted up. Just as God willed it for the Children of Israel to have the Old Covenant for 1600 years before Christ, he allowed the old Covenant to creep back in our theology soon after the Pentecost. However, God will lift up Christ in His planned timing when He will manifest His glory via the 144K at the end time. The truth will come down as an overflowing scourge(Is 28:2-6,15-29; 30:27-33; Jer 47:2; Ez 13:10-13; Ez 38:22-23; Hab 3:10) so “that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.” Jhn 17:23.


Okay Elle. As per your original request, as I better understand it now, I’ll focus on one section at a time. (Not necessarily in posted order).

First the Greek term elko “drag #1670. While the lexical comparison you make is telling of what its pointed meaning is, indeed “to drag” there are a couple of exegetical issues that challenge your “no free will” view here.

-As it appears in John 6:44 it is in the Greek subjunctive mood. That is the mood of “probability” The other Greek Moods, listed by degree of certainty, are: “assertion/certainty” (indicative mood); “possibility” (optative); “(volitional) intention” (imperative). (See e.g. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, 748-751). The Subjunctive mood depicts an action (or state) as uncertain but probable.

My scholarly approach when faced with a subjunctive is to ask where is the ‘(probable) uncertainty.’ So in this case in John 6:44, where God to do the “dragging”, is it that:
a. God may or may not do the dragging
b. the targeted people may or may not be drag

I think that Jesus knew that the Father would do His part, so I see choice (b) as the area of uncertainty.

Then if as you say, these people have no freewill but what God commands, then why the uncertainty? Even if this is been seen as a probable, it manifestly is ‘uncertain’ because these targeted people may not allow themselves to be dragged. Indeed God is going to “target” some people for this dragging and not clearly everyone, therefore the question indeed is why is it still uncertain that these chosen/targeted people may not be drawn? I can only see because they have free will and therefore can choose to be dragged or not.

-Indeed I believe that the early pioneers of the Church, being “choice people” were handpicked by God as “firstfruits”. However I see they had a choice to fulfill this “election” or not. Jesus had first done this by selecting the 11 (Judas volunteered his “services”) from a larger groups of early followers, and here Jesus was speaking to that larger group of followers. Indeed Jesus was pointedly addressing the fact that some of his supposed believer/followers started to grumble amongst themselves at his saying (John 6:41, 42) and Jesus thus told them that they should not be surprised that they were grumbling. Meaning that they should not be surprised that they were expressing doubts about Him.

I think given this exegetical Biblical context DA 391.2-392.1 provides interesting insight on this episode. In DA 392.1 she speak of these disciples having made a “choice” to not continue to follow Jesus here.

-Not in John 12:32* the word “drag” is used again. This time in the most certain of moods (indicative) and in the future sense. Now does mean that Jesus will “certainly” force everyone to believe in Him, and even if they do not want to? I have never seen so, as it should have occurred, at least by the resurrection. Does this instead mean this will surely occur by the end of time? If so then that “all” (Greek “pas”) did not mean “all” as billions of people died in most evident wicked states. So I can only see that even if a ‘dragging of God/Jesus’ occurs the dragged ones still have a choice. Therefore the “dragging” that took place at the Cross was merely in drawing the attention of all, somehow to the cross where they could make a knowing choice for or against it. And that global drawing/dragging work was to be tangibly done through Christ’s disciples. As Jesus had described earlier on this ‘lifting up’ issue, only those who believed would be save (John 3:14, 15). Thus that drawing on the Cross was indeed in Jesus, when He would be uplifted, becoming, like Moses serpent, the only focal point for life. So all who wanted to be saved, would have to look at Him and believe.

*By the way, I understand the “if” in that verse to be in relation to whether Jesus would go through with that grueling ordeal or not. (Luke 12:49, 50). He indeed had to ‘“constrained Himself” so that it may be accomplished (by God) ((passive) subjunctive mood.
_________________________
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Top
#132731 - 04/16/11 05:43 PM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: NJK Project]
Elle Offline
Active Member 2017
Most Dedicated Member
Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 2287
Loc: Canada
I’ve edited this post as I found I didn’t express myself clearly enough. I did added 3 small paragraph clump together in the middle of the post entitle (1)God is The Lord(Sovereign) our God,(2)How our Minds got Corrupted. and (3) Whosoever shall Exalt Himself shall be Abased. Otherwise nothing was taken out or added just edited for clarity sake.


Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: Elle
Part 1 of 2 (of NJK Part 3 post)
Using of Helkuo instead of other words available
Originally Posted By: NJK
Interesting word study here, however I think you are overstating its meaning by making it include and affect free will.

I don’t think it is overstating it, for I’m deriving the meaning of helkuo from it’s context of being used in the Bible. I agree that Strong could of have made an error in his difinition in his dictionary, but that can be verified by the usage of the word in context in the Bible which makes clear what is the definition of that word. According to the context of usage, Strong’s definition is correct and it does mean drag.

They had other words to use if they wanted to clearly express your current interpretation of the word. They could of used G1448 eggizo or G4334 proserchomai. These two words would of express your current preference, but they didn’t and they chose G1670 helkuo because that’s what they wanted to give as a meaning including Jesus.

Originally Posted By: Strongs word Definition of DRAW
G1448 eggizo : from G1451; to make near, i.e. (reflexively) approach. KJV: approach, be at hand, come (draw) near, be (come, draw) nigh.


G4334 proserchomai : from G4314 and G2064 (including its alternate); to approach, i.e. (literally) come near, visit, or (figuratively) worship, assent to. KJV: (as soon as he) come (unto), come thereunto, consent, draw near, go (near, to, unto).


G1670 helkuo : probably akin to G138; to drag (literally or figuratively). Compare G1667. KJV: draw.


Is Jesus Lifted Up Today Vs. God Lift Him up in the Future
Originally Posted By: NJK
One simple text from that group entirely sink your ‘no free will, irresistible pulling’ claim, and that is Christ’s statement in John 12:32. If Christ “drew all to Him when He was lifted up on the Cross, the why have billions of people since that event not become Christians?? Clearly one still has the free will to accept or reject Christianity.

John 12:32 saysif I be lifted up”

Currently, with our old covenant tinted Gospel, Christ is not being lifted up. Just as God willed it for the Children of Israel to have the Old Covenant for 1600 years before Christ, he allowed the old Covenant to creep back in our theology soon after the Pentecost. However, God will lift up Christ in His planned timing when He will manifest His glory via the 144K at the end time. The truth will come down as an overflowing scourge(Is 28:2-6,15-29; 30:27-33; Jer 47:2; Ez 13:10-13; Ez 38:22-23; Hab 3:10) so “that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.” Jhn 17:23.


Okay Elle. As per your original request, as I better understand it now, I’ll focus on one section at a time. (Not necessarily in posted order).

Thx.

Originally Posted By: NJK
First the Greek term elko “drag #1670. While the lexical comparison you make is telling of what its pointed meaning is, indeed “to drag” there are a couple of exegetical issues that challenge your “no free will” view here.

-As it appears in John 6:44 it is in the Greek subjunctive mood. That is the mood of “probability” The other Greek Moods, listed by degree of certainty, are: “assertion/certainty” (indicative mood); “possibility” (optative); “(volitional) intention” (imperative). (See e.g. Wallace, Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics, 748-751). The Subjunctive mood depicts an action (or state) as uncertain but probable.

I’m glad you agree that helkuo means drag.

With respect to Mr. Wallace, I read in a linguistic forum about the Ancient Greek subjunctive aorist, and it looks like there’s much debate and much uncertainty about this mood. Someone knowing his Greek quite well, fluent in Spanish, make the point that in the Spanish language this “is obsolete, and was subsequently discarded through ordinary people’s sense of logic.” So it makes me suspect the practicality of the one who translated the NT into Greek in the first place. Just like any field of knowledge, people can complicate unnecessarily anything because there are so caught up in all the details of it.

Was the NT written in Hebrew originally? Some claim that. We also need to acknowledge the fact that the Greek NT manuscripts(over 4000 which were copies of copies of copies of copies…) used for the translation were copies from after 700 AD. That 600 years after the Pentecost phenomena. Already, it is not far fetch to suppose that already some doctrinal errors was in the people’s pre-conceived thinking. Also, Its inevitable to do some errors during all the copying that was done. Errors was sought to be eliminated via comparing manuscripts. However, to be realistic, some errors must of remained in the manuscript used for today’s translations including the KJV. However, we’re talking about the NT above. I hear that the OT is more reliable because of the Masoretic dependability. I’m not saying this to cast shade of the inspiration nature of Scriptures and I believe God knew this and that’s why God repeated His truth enough in different books that we can still find it. Thus, often we need to draw a conclusion on the bulk of the evidences that God provided throughout His word and test all doctrines against the foundation by which the Law of Moses provides.

I view your point quite weak because the Aorist subjunctive is a much debated, uncertain and unpractical linguistic tense and mood which could be a linguistic vanity of a translator. However the word helkuo stands on its own merits of its meaning and it does challenge by itself the conventional Christians false Doctrines.

Originally Posted By: NJK
My scholarly approach when faced with a subjunctive is to ask where is the ‘(probable) uncertainty.’ So in this case in John 6:44, where God to do the “dragging”, is it that:
a. God may or may not do the dragging
b. the targeted people may or may not be drag

I think that Jesus knew that the Father would do His part, so I see choice (b) as the area of uncertainty.

I see a (c.) and I have listed as a (d.) the plain text as it reads. If I would put time in thinking, I’m sure I can come up with some other possibilities in your list, so your deduction doesn’t work.

c. you may or may not be dragged to me(Jesus) in this age.
There is 3 other ages to come that I know of (1) the Millenium (2) after the Millenium (3) after the Judgment of the Great White throne.

D. to me the subjunctiveness you are seeking for is found where I underline in the text “No one can come to Me(Jesus) unless the Father drags Him”. As plain as that. I see this same meaning is express in the other translations too. Below I have listed 4:

KJV : “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.” Jhn 6:44.

NIV : “No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. Jhn 6:44.

Young “no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;” Jhn 6:44.

NLT : “For people can't come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them from the dead..” Jhn 6:44.

Considering the Context of John 6:44

I find the context is where John 6:44 eliminates any argument of exactly what this text says is meant to say. Here’s a bullet of the context:

- People Make Jesus King : The people were looking for Jesus to make him king(v.15) after Jesus had fed the 5000(v.10). These people wanted a king after their own flesh that could solve all their present temporal problems(v.26).
- People seeking Physical Bread : So Jesus addresses their present spiritual problems “Verily, verily, …you seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled” Jhn 6:26
- Jesus is the Spiritual Bread : Jesus tells them what they need is “the true bread from heaven” v.32 “that he that cometh to me to me shall never hunger” v. 35
- People Saw, but didn’t Believe : Then Jesus state the current fact that despite they saw the miracle and sees Him they still didn’t believe him Jhn 6:36 “But I said unto you, that ye also have seen me and believe not.”
- Jesus tells them the reason why they couldn’t believe: John 6:37 ”All that the Father giveth me shall come to me, and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”
- Comparing v.37 with v.44 are same statements: Both of these verses talk about who can “come to Jesus”, and both says that it is done via the Father. These are statements that gives the reason for their unbelief. Basically V.37 says “All the Father giveth me shall come to me”, in v. 44 gives a little more detail by stating “No one can come to me, unless the Father drags him”

God is The Lord(Sovereign) our God
Both v.36 & v.44 states the basic principle that first the Father does the work to bring people to Jesus. This work is the preperation of the minds through the trials the Father has tailored for each individuals. All our trials has the same objective, it is to bring us to the realization that God is The Lord our God. There are nearly 200 texts in the Bible stating the purpose of these trials which is written similarly to this fashion “ye shall know that I am the Lord your God” . Our sanity depends on us knowing our place in our relationship with God and not to elevate ourself beyond reality and steal God’s glory. Basically we are to come to realize that we are nothing but dust – highly organized dust. With this understanding we would humbly speak as Abraham did in Gen 18:27 “And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which [am but] dust and ashes:” .

How our Minds got Corrupted

The fall of Lucifer was due that he elevated himself(Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: ”) which is how his mind got corrupted. This principle of the origin of sin is stated in Rom 1:21 “Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. “ We continually elevate ourself too and we are ignorant of how God works in us. Ep 4:18 “Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:” ).

Whosoever shall Exalt Himself shall be Abased

God needs to bring us back to our proper place and teach us the truth on how things really works(Hos 2:8-13)) and come to know to what extend that God is Sovereign by which He “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” Ep1:11. Only then we will regain our reason just like he did with King Nebuchednazzar. We are all guilty of the same sin of King Nebuchednazzar’s in taking God’s glory(Dn 4:30). Jesus said “whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased” Mat 23:12 There’s many other texts stating this as in Is 2:12 “For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low.

We need to stop putting ourself above God and acknowledge that God’s Sovereignty includes dragging someone to Christ against their “natural man” ‘will’.

God’s Sovereign work include Opening our Spiritual Ears

We know that “faith come by hearing and hearing by the word of God” (Rom 10:17). Just because we naturally can hear sounds and can make up its meaning very intelligently, doesn’t mean that you really understood(spiritually heard). It is merely a carnal or “natural” mind persuasion to the validity of a particular fact or view. Intellectual persuasion is not the same as faith nor can it produce it.

The people fed in John 6:36, and the Jewish leaders in John 8:43 both couldn’t hear(understand) Jesus speech. Jesus said the reason was “… because ye cannot hear my word.” Jhn 8:43 So since we know that their natural or physical ears did hear Jesus speak, therefore Jesus must be referring to a spiritual ear that was closed.

“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned.” 1Cr 2:14

This closed spiritual ear is what unable us to believe(Jhn 6:36). And it is due to the fact that the Father hasn’t given them to Jesus yet (Jhn 6:37) by the means of “dragging”(John 6:44).

Then how can we have our spiritual ears open?

(1) God first shows mercy on whom He wants(Rom 9:15)
(2) God “drags” that person to Jesus, (John 6:44)
(3) then Jesus speaks the word of God in your mind(Prov 8)
(4) And you hear(in Hebrew -shama’ H8085 - hear or obey is the same word. They make no distinction between the two.)

So the ability to hear depends First on the Father when He exercise His Sovereignty over man’s will to bring them to Jesus, and only then Jesus voice can be heard. The “dragging” are the trials we go through that soften our heart which prepares our minds to hear Jesus voice when it is time. So it depends 100% on the Father’s will to open/prepare someone’s spiritual ears or not. Let’s see if we have other scriptures that supports that:

-Moses acknowledge this fact to the Israelites before they entered the promise land : Deut 29:4 Yet the Lord hath not given you and heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. 5. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness…”.

-God states this fact to Isaiah to tell Israel before their destruction : Is 6:9 “And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. 10. Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.”

-Isaiah confirmed this in his prayer by putting the liability on God for making them err : Is 63:17 “ O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, and hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance.

-Paul confirms this by restating Is 6:9 in his own words : Acts 28:26 “Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: 27. For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

Originally Posted By: NJK
Then if as you say, these people have no freewill but what God commands, then why the uncertainty? Even if this is been seen as a probable, it manifestly is ‘uncertain’ because these targeted people may not allow themselves to be dragged. Indeed God is going to “target” some people for this dragging and not clearly everyone, therefore the question indeed is why is it still uncertain that these chosen/targeted people may not be drawn? I can only see because they have free will and therefore can choose to be dragged or not.


There is no uncertainty with God. God is All powerful. ”With God all things are possible” Mt 19:26 His word “shall not return unto me void”(Is 55:11). Plus God never misses the target!

Originally Posted By: NJK
Not in John 12:32* the word “drag” is used again. This time in the most certain of moods (indicative) and in the future sense. Now does mean that Jesus will “certainly” force everyone to believe in Him, and even if they do not want to?

No one will be force but rather God will influence(woe) us and will subdued everyone to His Power as written in Scriptures. Here are the following reason why everyone will respond to God :

1- We are created in His image : This means that are cells and whole being are design to respond to him and to know his voice. The only part of our body that is not in harmony with God, is our mind. This is what needs to be rewired.

2- Our desires becomes the same as the one we are married to : Gen 3:16. It will take time for God to woe us back, and when all is done, we will respond like a typical woman respond to her husban(Hos 2:16,23).

For more information about force is not God’s way, see previous post #132621 under the tiltle Sovereignty & FreeWill & Force & Sevanthood” and #132516 title “Does God Rule by Force or by Influence”. .

Originally Posted By: NJK
I have never seen so, as it should have occurred, at least by the resurrection.
Could you give me support where it says that in the Bible?

Originally Posted By: NJK
Does this instead mean this will surely occur by the end of time?

You are implying this and I have in the past before I came to study about this. There’s many gaps in the Bible concerning the futur after Jesus 2nd coming that we tend to fill them with speculations. The truth is found in understanding the Jubilee Laws which is the most important Type of the plan of salvation. We SDAs have not been studying these and that’s why we are as ignorant as other denominations concerning these question. EGW and AT Jones where coming to realize the importance of studying the Laws of Moses. These are the only foundation(the Types) that God provided for us to know the Truth about His plan of Salvation and what is there to come.

Originally Posted By: egw
Now, if never before we should see that where there is a type there is also an antitype, and that WHERE THERE IS NO TYPE, THERE IS NO TRUTH. 1TG 46:15




Originally Posted By: NJK
If so then that “all” (Greek “pas”) did not mean “all” as billions of people died in most evident wicked states. So I can only see that even if a ‘dragging of God/Jesus’ occurs the dragged ones still have a choice.


According to the definition of the word Pas it means “all, any, every, the whole”. All means all and would include all people that were ever born on earth. When God said all, he means all.

“And so all Israel shall be saved as it is written “ Rom 11:26; Is 59:20

“Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” 1Ti 2:4
_________________________
Blessings
Top
#132736 - 04/16/11 10:04 PM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: Elle]
NJK Project Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 1098
Loc: Laval, Quebec
Elle, I appreciate your expanded response however I see that it is important to start with and have a proper exegetical foundation, or else we will be only stating personal opinions. Therefore I will first only focus on these foundational exegetical aspects, and that first vers of John 6:44.

Unfortunately I can only “afford” succinct answers here:

-You’ll need to provide a link to and/or the text of that linguistic forum statement. That person’s comparison to what has occurred in Spanish with the subjunctive mood is not at all determinative of what might have occurred in New Testament Greek. Case in point, the subjunctive is still used in many modern languages, such as French. I have not checked, as it is still not determinative to 1st century NT Greek, but it may still be used in modern Greek.

-All of the published NT Greek grammars that I have consulted do not say anything about a loss of meaning for the subjunctive. They only suggest that the optative mood, the mood of possibility may have come to be included within the subjunctive. So there is no debate about the subjunctive mood. (The aorist tense is inconsequential to the mood)

-Also argument of “dead/deponent” grammatical forms are entirely and purely subjective, because one cannot ask the author if they meant to have a actual meaning in its use or a empty one. My question is always, why go through the trouble of composing that form if that’s not what you meant. It is like me saying: “I may run in the Olympics” when I actually meant, knowing as a certain fact that: “I am going to run in the Olympics”. I only use subjunctive if there is some sort of uncertainty involved.

-The argument that NT Greek manuscripts date from the 7th century on is false. I have a copy of the Nestle-Aland Greek Bible (27th Edition0 (UBS 4) and it lists in the back the hundreds of principal MSS that they used for their work, and most of them are dated before the 7th century, going as far back as the 2nd century A.D.

-You do realize that I can make the same completely unsubstantiated ‘mal-translation’ argument for the text which you claim prove your view. I.e., the Church switched the meaning of those text to say what you are implying.

-And if that ‘mal-translation’ was really done to MSS then why did it not occur for the verses you claim that support your view. Why is it only the ‘probable case’ for e.g., John 6:44?? That sound way too subjectively convenient for me.

-only the book of Hebrews and Matthew have ever been said to have had an Aramaic (and not Hebrew) origin. The rest of the books were intended for Gentile audiences, including John’s works (i.e., in that probable order: 3 Letters, Revelation, Gospel) which are all probably the latest written works in the NT.

-the fact that Greek and not Latin was used, with the Greek Empire having been defeated over 200 years before, shows that Greek was the entrenched language in the Roman empire then, even for Jews, and especially for Gentile Christian. Hence why the NT is written in that language. Indeed Luke, Paul, John, Mark (transcribing Peter), were either Gentiles themselves or writing pointedly to Gentile audiences and these did not either speak or understand Aramaic.

-the word translated “unless” is from Greek particle “me” (not, lest) #3361 and not the Greek subordinating conjunction for conditional clauses “ean” (if) #1437.

-conditional clauses are normatively introduced by the “if not” = #1437 & #3361, but the two terms are distinct.

-John 12:24 & Acts 8:31 are examples that the subjunctive does not always have to be used in a conditional statement. In fact it is when the main action is sure to (indispensably) occur that the subjunctive is not used. E.g., ‘fallen grain (though not necessarily dead)’ John 12:24 & ‘a guided blind man’ Acts 8:31.

-If the “dragging” case in John 6:44 was something that God would “certainly” be able to do, then I exegetically see that this theological notion would have been expressed similarly
as in John 3:27, 6:65 where the Father must first “give/grant” something so that ‘it might availably become the case with a man’. Hence, the subjunctive there is on the stative verb focusing on man (eimi - “to be”) and not on what God has to do (give/grant). So the uncertainty is whether or not this state of being given/granted will become the case.

-In the case of “dragging” in John 6:44, as this will depend on whether or not the acted upon subject will “believe”, and that pointedly, the Spiritual Expressions of Christ (cf. John 6:63, 64), which, when they are deciphered meant this would be done by obedience of them in faith (John 6:47-66) thus indeed ‘eating and drinking them’, then the uncertainty is similarly pointedly on if that verbal action would be accomplished. It is not saying as in John 3:37; 6:65 that the “dragging” action itself is certain. Again, as I see it, and more analysis from a large corpus of text may confirm this, that goes back to the issue of not if God is going to do this, but is this action will be successful.

-John 12:32 speaks only to the 31 A.D. crucifixion event. It is only by sermonic license and not proper exegesis that it can be said to be speaking of a future event. “Drag all” there clearly does not have the ‘only eschatological/future age meaning’ that you are eisegetically imposing on it. It meant merely a drawing of the attention of all, with these drawn ones still have the free choice believe or not as Jesus clearly points out in John 3:16.

I think these passages, especially John 12:32 is crucial to your view as it is a theological expression of Christ and exegetically clearly implies free will, as do other statements in the Bible.
_________________________
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Top
#132739 - 04/17/11 12:19 PM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: NJK Project]
Elle Offline
Active Member 2017
Most Dedicated Member
Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 2287
Loc: Canada
Hi NJK,

Once again, thank you for your respond and your time.
Originally Posted By: NJK
-The argument that NT Greek manuscripts date from the 7th century on is false. I have a copy of the Nestle-Aland Greek Bible (27th Edition0 (UBS 4) and it lists in the back the hundreds of principal MSS that they used for their work, and most of them are dated before the 7th century, going as far back as the 2nd century A.D.

I should have been more accurate in my statement, the information I provided stated that all the current modern English translation we have today including the KJV used manuscript which are made from those 4000 copies of copies of copies…. Greek Manuscripts. My source did state that the name of 2 or 3 manuscripts(don’t remember exactly) that dated in the 2nd century however I believe they are not originals and those are not the Manuscript sources the translators used for the english translations which I don’t know why they prefer the others.

Concerning the info on Subjunctive Aorist, I was surfing in all kinds of places to find that info, but the forum link is the following : http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=797348

Originally Posted By: NJK
-conditional clauses are normatively introduced by the “if not” = #1437 & #3361, but the two terms are distinct.
Oh, I was aware of the word ‘unless’ was not an ideal English translation of the ‘If’ #1437. I didn’t raise it up because I perceived it as a non issue and didn’t want to complicate things. So I underline the standard ‘unless’ translated word as it is more easily readable in my example.
The ean by which occurs 333 times and eantiep by which occurs 3 times, these has been translated in the KJV in 12 different English words. I don’t see any “if not” in the KJV translation, there is “if” (200 times) but no “if not”. The Concordant here has translated it as “if ever” for the ean written form from the manuscript.

Originally Posted By: NJK
-If the “dragging” case in John 6:44 was something that God would “certainly” be able to do, then I exegetically see that this theological notion would have been expressed similarly
as in John 3:27, 6:65 where the Father must first “give/grant” something so that ‘it might availably become the case with a man’. Hence, the subjunctive there is on the stative verb focusing on man (eimi - “to be”) and not on what God has to do (give/grant). So the uncertainty is whether or not this state of being given/granted will become the case.

“John answered and said, A man can receive nothing; except it be given him from heaven” John 3:27 and the similar text stated in 6:65 ; I See them all stating the same principle as 6:44 and 6:37 and it can be read as plainly as it was written.

For the example of John 3:27,
...- it is not saying that -- some man from the earth is going to received something, and other’s are not.
...- Nor does the text say -- that all the man from the earth is going to received something.
...- It is stating a principle how things work that -- a man cannot receive nothing unless given from heaven.

The same applies for 6:44( and 6:65; 6:36),
...- the text is not saying that only some men are being “dragged”
...- nor that -- all men are being “dragged”.
...- It is stating the principle that – a man can only come to Christ ”unless”(or "if ever") the Father “drags” him.

By your deduction in over simplifying it to 2 possibilities of the subjunctive mood on 6:44 you’ve concluded that this text implies whether they chose it or not when I have listed you 2 others possibilities which would negate your point. To properly derive to the meaning of these texts we need to look at the context they came from and consider other scriptures. And that’s what I have done. However, you only stick on the mood and base your deduction by which you used 2 possible options to come to your bias when actually there are other possible options.

To me your deduction based on a mood is weak especially when context is ignored and other scriptures too. I do understand that it is not to your best interest as you have invested lots of time in building your doctrinal conclusions on the typical assumption that individual have a freewill. So the cost is too great for you. You are not alone and most assume that we have the freewill and it is such a common assumption we don’t even see the necessity to even consider this as a valid question. I wouldn’t of consider it myself if the Lord wouldn’t of brought me there in the first place. Have you even ever really asked yourself sincerely if man had a freewill or not and studied it seriously with your heart?

Regardless of your cost, I personally believe that forums are not the place to be convicted. Real conviction can only come from personally studying the subject with the Lord. If a person don’t engage in the study, well the Father didn’t want it to happen right now. So I’m not expecting anyone to even bother studying this question seriously for themselves.

Originally Posted By: NJK
I think these passages, especially John 12:32 is crucial to your view as it is a theological expression of Christ and exegetically clearly implies free will, as do other statements in the Bible.

Oh no, I’ve been studying this question for over a year now and have collected a mass of texts. The word helkuo including John 12:32 is only a new discovery and it was an opportunity to bring it out so to have some feedbacks. I do like to discuss in the forum things I currently am studying, so since I wanted to revise my notes on this, and saw your invitation, I couldn’t resist.

NJK, I personally don’t want to go back and forth on one thing too long. I have expressed my thoughts and so did you. We can move on to the other points, if you like too. However, feel free to express anything else you want to stress about the subjunctive mood before we move on. I’ll give you the last words.

Oh, BTW, What’s MSS?
_________________________
Blessings
Top
#132741 - 04/17/11 10:43 PM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: Elle]
NJK Project Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 1098
Loc: Laval, Quebec
I appreciate your efforts and desire to arrive at concrete truth here, however, and as I have told you before in other discussions, I also see here several obstacles to having an objective discussion on this topic:

-proper exegesis is a deal maker/breaker for me, and you are not taken in all of the key exegetical contributions here.

-That forum rightly says that there is no future subjunctive, as my written Greek textbooks also emphasize. That is because the subjective is not focusing on an uncertain of whether something will take place in the future, but if the action itself will be done. So e.g., if I say: ‘I may run in the Olympics’ I am not uncertain of whether the Olympics will take place in the future to allow me to run in them, but if, as their happening is a “given”, I will run or not.

-by your view on Manuscripts, we cannot depend on anything written on the Bible since we don’t have an original copy. So what then is the standard here, your view on what is genuine or not??

-I also find your refusal to include EGW on this issue to be unbiblical. I think she makes several key, theologically independent, statements which help to arrive at the proper meaning here, and that does not include any “free will” belief expressions. EGW prophetic gift has been attested and thus is contributively indispensable to Biblical exegesis for me.

-Regardless of when you discover John 12:32 or not, it is still intrinsically, exegetically foundational to this topic. And to me, free will is clearly involved here.

-Taking all of the clear experiential episodes of the Bible into consideration for this topic, I do not see a prima facie case that man does not have free will nor that God is acting to force people to eternal condemnation. If that was the case, the He would be greatly wasting time, since he could have created Adam and Eve to be forced to remain faithful. Frankly speaking, your view does not begin to make any Theological, Biblical, Exegetical (i.e., your interpretation of individual texts), Prophetic, nor Logical sense to me.

Therefore, for all of these reasons, I do not see that the continuance of this discussion as being beneficial and it indeed will be too “costly” for me, not in ideological terms, but in terms of the needed tangible, various resources needed to continue it. I will however take it up later when/if I readily have the various needed resources to do so. Hope you understand!

-MSS is an abbreviated term for Manuscript(s).
_________________________
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Top
#132750 - 04/18/11 08:32 AM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: NJK Project]
NJK Project Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 1098
Loc: Laval, Quebec
As foundationally crucial/determinative.... In your view Elle, why is it Biblically important that people today, especially Christians, ‘understand and believe’ that: ‘we do not have free will, but instead are being irresistibly forced by God to either be good/obedient/faithful or evil/rebellious/faithless?
_________________________
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Top
#132871 - 04/23/11 05:59 PM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: NJK Project]
Elle Offline
Active Member 2017
Most Dedicated Member
Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 2287
Loc: Canada
Thank you NJK for your kind question and considering my thoughts.

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
As foundationally crucial/determinative.... In your view Elle, why is it Biblically important that people today, especially Christians, ‘understand and believe’ that: ‘we do not have free will, but instead are being irresistibly forced by God to either be good/obedient/faithful or evil/rebellious/faithless?

Having no Freewill doesn’t mean God Forces us
Before addressing your question, may I address your persistent underlined “force” word. I have explained this several times with biblical support why it is not forced in the following titles and posts#

[1] God Sovereignty in Influence, #132448
[2] Does God Rule by Force or by Influence #132516,
[3] Sovereignty & FreeWill & Force & Sevanthood. #132621.
[4] The Turning of the Farmer’s Ox #132383 ,
[5] Does the Bull Turn Himself? 132622
[6] The Conversion is like a Seed Sprouting #132516,
[7] Why does it take Time to Mature Man? #132621,

There are so many Biblical reasons why the understanding that we have no freewill is important. This concept changes your whole perspective on your outlook of the plan of salvation and does make God Sovereign over all things. Of course what’s important is to have a Biblical perspective which is in harmony with the Laws of Moses and the Prophets. I will state and expand on the most important one and finish this post by providing a list of the others with Biblical support below.

Acknowledging we have no Freewill reverse the Fall of Lucifer and Man

Thinking that we have the inherent abilities is the heart of Lucifer’s fall. This led into the belief that we can govern ourself as gods which he promoted at the tree of knowledge to man(Gn 3:5-6).

How Lucifer fell & Vanity of the Mind

Eze 28:17 "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness".

Lucifer’s heart was LIFTED UP because of his amazement of his beauty/capabilities. We are wonderfully created and what we think, and what we say, and what we do, appears to come from us. God works secretly within us, and everything we will and do comes from God even our reasoning abilities comes from Him(Dn 4:34,36).

Scriptures doesn’t say here that Lucifer made the "CHOICE" to be Vain. It was a phenomenon that resulted as a product of considering his brightness by which his reasoning got corrupted and darkened his mind and brought on Vanity.

Satan “ hast corrupted” his “ wisdom by reason of his brightness" Ez 28:17 Let’s paraphrase this. Satan became “vain in” his “imaginations” by reason of his brightness which he started to believed this “brightness” came from him as stated in Rom 1:21.

Rom 1:21 "Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became VAIN in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened"

We know that we do not control most biological processes that happens in our body(eg cell divisions, healing, digestion, growth, hormonal cycling(reproductive, day/night, etc..). Today, most people including most Christians say it is an inherent automatic with biofeedbacks mechanism that the body knows what to do. They do not glorify God as God and do not understand that nothing in this universe is on automatic and all is govern by God at all time. This denial of God’s personal involment in all things, including our thoughts and reasoning, is what darkens our minds, and consequentially we put our trust in the suppose “inherent” qualities that is within ourselves or created objects that is around us.

Rom 1:22,25 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools… who changed the truth of God into a lie”

Eph 4:17 “This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk , in the vanity3153 of their mind,
18. Having the understanding DARKENED, being alienated from the life of God through the IGNORANCE that is IN them, because of the BLINDNESS of their heart :
Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.


Our Inherent Qualities : Darkness and Impotence

Notice v.18 this vanity (1)darkens our understanding, (2)alienates us fron the life of God, (3)brings on an ignorance that is IN them. One thing we do inherently possess is ignorance. Without God continually enlightening us, we are inherently totally in darkness. That’s why the Bible says that God is light. This is true in regard to our intelligence and only God can bring us light/understanding in our minds.

Plus inherently we cannot do anything without God which includes, leading our thoughts and reasoning in the correct path. That’s why scriptures say it is God that worketh in us both to will and to do(see Does the Bull Turn Himself? #132622).

Faith -- Freewill -- Salvation

This freewill concept is a product of this vanity thinking and it’s very egocentric and is a fabrication of our imagination. The most destructive results of this vanity-- in believing in one’s own abilities-- brings on that we lose our faith in God. You cannot have faith in both. That’s why God will bring us back to the dust and humble us through tribulations so we can regain our senses as God did with King Nebuchednezzar in Dn 4.

In having faith in our suppose inherent thinking abilities leads on the assumption that we have a will, by which we then put above God’s Sovereignty by concluding God cannot do anything unless we agree(or allow him). It is a very arrogant behavior towards God besides being ridiculous. To come to agree, we need to know the truth before hand to properly evaluate and come to an educated analysis. However, to know the truth, we first need to have our minds open to be able to hear and only God can do that(Deut 29:4; Is 6:9,10; Jhn 8:43). Should we also give God that permission beforehand too? Let’s assume that a “natural man” can hear of his own will. Then how on earth are we going understand what we hear, if we cannot even understand the spiritual things?(1Cor 12:14; Rom 8:5-7; 2Pet 2:12; Jud 1:10; Dn 12:10) To begin with the “natural man” is not even drawn to God(Rom 3:11) and won’t even consider what God has to say because from the start we think it is totally foolishness(1Cor 1:18, 23; 2:14). So the premises that we first need to agree or “allow God” makes absolutely no sense as it is impossible for a “natural man” to come to God and be able to understand the things of God.

Man Agreement or a Respond

However, it is true that a “spiritual man” will agree/respond to all of God’s will, but it is not a by-product of our intelligence and our understanding by which requires our inputs before God does anything, but rather a phenomenon of an establish marriage like relationship based on trust. God has describe his relationship with his people as a marriage. So therefore the law of desires written in Gn 3:16 applies. The wife’s heart desires becomes her husband’s desires . This is how the law of trust and desires works by which God details it further in Hosea 2 on how he will bring us into this type of marriage relationship.

In addition, there is the fact that we are made in His image and our most fundamental being is made to respond to His voice and resonate His will. It is like a flute design to resonate beautiful sounds when the right pressure of air flow is blown into it as the melody is played by the musician at His will. God is the one that knows how to blow His Spirit into us by making those notes according to our design. Our intellect is just an additional layer of functionality he has created us with. Just like anything else in this universe, it needs to be blown into to produce the desired sound/thoughts. The flute cannot blow itself, nor our intellectual faculties is able to produce any soundness without God’s small still voice blown between our ears and His influencial hand in our life.

We are free beings in the sence that we are easily moved by His Spirit at God’s will and not pre-programmed. But never the reasoning faculties were design to govern ourselves, nor to give God permission to run the show. We are His creatures and His servants and always will be as so like anything else that is created to serve God. He did endow us with higher reasoning abilities than any other creation on earth so we can dominate the earth and to subdue all things therein, but in doing so by having God’s presence abiding in our soul and therefore being an extension of His will and mind and not our own.

Freewill and Trials to bring us to Maturity

God in His Wisdom allowed this “freewill” allusion by which he will use it to bring us to maturity(Rom 8:18-23; Job 34:11; Is 26:9; Hab 1:12; Hos 2). It is through trials(Deut 28 & 29; Lev 26) that He humbles us and will show us Himself as God the Almighty(Sovereign -- El Shaddai). As our understanding of His Sovereign works increases, the less free our “will” will seem to be.

List of Biblical reasons why it is important to increase in realizing that we have no “freewill”. I’m sure there’s more that you can see.

1- So we can “know that God is the Lord our God” (Over 200 Biblical texts—a good exercise to read them to get a sense of what God is telling us when He makes that statement.)

2- So we can know that God is Sovereign over all things including us (Gn 14:19,22; 1Ch 29:11-17; Is 55:11; Rom 9:15,16,18; Dt 29:4; Job 41:11-14; etc…)

3- So we come to realize that all power comes from God(Jn 3:27; Mat 28:18; Jh 17:2; 1Co 15:25,27; Jn 19:11; Col 1:18; 1Co 11:3; Heb 1:3) by which this implies that we have no inherent powers and there’s nothing in this universe that is set on automatic (MH 417.1) including our thoughts/understanding(see#18)

4- So we can come to realized that God “worketh all things after the counsel of his own will” (Ep 1:11)

5- So we can acknowledge that God created evil (Is 45:7) and gives the power for their actions, allows what evil to bring(Jdg 9:23; 1Sa 16:15,16, 23; Jer 35:17; 39:16; 40:2; Eze 6:11), and even takes full responsibility for all evils by saying he has done all these things.(Job 42:11; 1Kg 9:9; 17:20; 2Ch 34:28; Neh 13:18; Jer 32:23,42; 42:10; 44:2; Eze 14:22; Deu 32:39; Is 45:7; Ams 3:6; Is 19:22; etc…)

6- So we can learn that it is God that wounds us and then heals us.(Ps 68:20; Job 5:18; 1Sm 2:6; Has 6:1; Deu 32:39; Jer 30:17; etc..)

7- So we come to realized that “every good gift and perfect gift is from above” (Jm 1:17; Jn 3:27; 1Co 4:6-7; Heb 5:4) including any good thoughts, reasoning, and “decision”.

8- So we can know that God moves us from within by the means of His Spirit abiding(tabernacles) in us always(1Jo 3:24; 1Pet 1:23; 1Jo 3:9; 1Jo 2:27; etc..)

9- So we can know that it is God that gives “an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear” (Deut 29:4; Is 6:9,10; Jhn 8:43; Acts 28:26, 27; Ep 4:18; 2Thes 2:11,12)

10- So we can give God all the Glory and stop stealing it(Rom 1:21, 22, 25)

11- So that we don’t take any credit for our conversion or for following God and acknowledge that it is 100% the work of God (Jer 31:18,19; Jn 6:37; 44; Jn 12:32; Phil 2:13; Eph 1:11; etc… )

12- So we can know that we are saved through grace and not by our will(decisions) nor by our works(Eph 2:8; Rom 9:15-16; Rom 11:29, 31; etc…)

13- So we come to realized that “without me(Jesus) we can do nothing” (Jhn 15:5)

14- So we can come to realized that God does indeed “worketh in us Both to Will and to Do” . (Phil 2:13).

15- So that we know that being born again doesn’t come from the will of man (Jn 1:11-13; Jn 3:5,6,8; 1Jo 5:18; Jm 1:17; 1Pe 1:23)

16- So we can know that God is Agape, and it is Agape that moves all things (1Jn 4:7-8;16;19; 5:11-12, 18; 1Co 11:3; Col 1:18) and not by intellectual persuasion(Jer 10:23; Ps 37:23; Prov 20:24; Prov 16:1).

17- So we can know that our “natural” intelligence, which is only flesh(Prov 16:2; 21:2) cannot understand nor discern spiritual things (1Co 2:14; Rom 8:5-7; )

18- So we can know that any understanding comes from God (Prov 16:1;Job 33:14-17; Job 32:8; Job 28:12-14)

19- So we don’t elevate ourselves above another thinking we have some type of “inherit” virtue (e.g. “we seek truth”) that makes us deemed to be elected or to be saved (Rom 3:9-18, 8:20-23; 9:11-26, 11:1-36)

20- So we can realize that it is God that puts the desire in us to seek truth to begin with because God has made us vessels of honor for His purpose in this plan.(Rom 9:11,21,23)

21- So we can acknowledge that the wicked were made vessels of dishonor to also serve an important purpose in His plan(Rom 9:11,17,21-33; Rom 11; Lev 27:28,29;)

22- So we don’t judge others (Rom 14:10-13; Jm 4:11-12)

23- So we can stop blaming the Devil for all evils or others for they’re inability to hear, and accept our current situation as God’s will so to bring us into maturity of belief.

24- So we don’t think we’re better than another(Rom 3:9-18;) and can esteem others better than ourselves. (Phil 2:3)

25- So we can give “supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men; for Kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peacefable life in all godliness and honesty” (1Tim 2:1-3)

26- So we can recognize that all authorities and powers are ordained by God and we can better submit to them. (Rom 13:1-2; Titus 3:1; 1Pe 2:13-16)

27- So we can honor all men (1Pet 2:17; Rom 12:10; 1Pet 5:5)

28- So we can walk humbly(1Pet 5:5; Mic 6:8) like Abraham did and truly believe that we are but dust and ashes(Gen 18:27) or a lump of clay(Rom 9:21) between God’s hand that is totally dependent on His will.

29- So we can forgive others that do us wrong(Mat 6:12; Luk 11:4) as Christ did to those who crucified him(Lk 23:34; Jer 31:34; Ps 103:14)

30- So we can “know that all things worketh for good” (Rom 8:28)

31- So we can learn to trust God and not ourselves(Rom 11:33-36; Is 41:21-29; etc..)

32- So we can realize that God created man with a blank mind that required time to have His Laws written in our mind. In the process, the creatures(the Angels and Man) were subjected by the vanity of our mind(Rom 8:20) unwillingly.

33- So we can realize this long inculcating, correcting, and chastizing(judgment) process that God has ordained from the beginning(Hab 1:12) comes from God so we can be more accepting of the tribulations that arises permitting us to grow so to have His laws written in our hearts(mind) (Jer 31:33; Eze 11:19-20; 36:26,27; Zep 3:9; 2Cor 3:3; Heb 8:10 ) forever.

34- So we realize that it is through the laws of afflictions that come as a result of God’s judgments(Lev 26; Deut 28 &29) that we actually learn righteousness by which we do not learn it through grace. (Is 26:9-10). When God grants grace and does not afflict those who have sinned they continue in their sin, even in the very presence of God.

35- So we can be amazed that God’s judgments and His ways past finding out! (Rom 11:33) who worked on all, who know how to bring people to Jesus(John 6:37; 6:65) by the means of “dragging”(helkuo, John 6:44) in His time and His ways.

36- So we can be releaved that our nor others salvation doesn’t depend on our will but on whom God shows mercy. Rom 9:15

37- So we can be assure that God know how to correct His children’s (Pro 3:12; Ps 94:10; Hab 1:12; Mic 4:3) and His word will be fulfilled (Is 55:11) “who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth”. (1Tim 2:4)

38- So we can come to understand the importance in learning and teaching God’s Laws given to Moses which is the expression of His mind and heart. So we can have them written in our heart and in the heart of others, so we can come to know and recognize God’s small still voice and can differentiate it from the voice of our reasoning.

39- So that we can understand that Trust(Belief/faith) in God, and distrust in self is what predispose us to hear God’s small still voice by which worketh to will and to do in us the great wonders of God(Heb 11).

40- So our outlook of this world, sin, our being, how God works, and His plan of salvation can take a drastic turn and be able to speak with a similar spirit as “Jesus answered, “Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.” John 9:3
_________________________
Blessings
Top
#132876 - 04/24/11 08:04 AM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: Elle]
NJK Project Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Registered: 08/13/05
Posts: 1098
Loc: Laval, Quebec
I’ve read your post and the prior references you cited again, but, sincerely Elle, your view continues to be completely Theologically|Biblically|Spiritually|Exegetically incongruous and self-contradictory to me. I could pick it apart point by point, and may in the future, however I currently do not have the resource of time to do this. Your attempt to make “force” be merely “influence” is an example of a futile attempt to justify your view. E.g., a policeman does not have to use deadly force with every person he pulls over. Just flicking on their lights and then making a few commands usually accomplishes precisely what he wants to do in compliance with the Law. In a similar way God using “influence” vs. “force” would just be Him using a lessor decree of reasonable force. I say “would be” because I do not see that you’ve shown that your view that God uses any type of constraining force to make people fall in line with His will is in any way Biblical.

The “elephant in the room” element in your view is how come millions of people, even those who God had supposedly ‘allotted much time to become mature through his corrective means, dies as complete heathens. What happened here, God misjudged the time needed, or the “level of force’ to use??? Clearly the only issue here is that these people freely decided to spurn these corrections and maintain their rebellious state.

God does humble the proud, however he does not do so, so that they will then believe in him. They have the free choice to either accept this as a correction from God or continue living a life without acknowledging God. However, and only when GC significant, God will not let them again have the former power and influence that had priorly achieved.

So I still do not see that your view has Biblical support. And the many texts that you are citing are factually proof texts. Not in that they do not address the issue in some part, as most proof text do, but because they do not imply the conclusion that you want them to have. Indeed most of the texts you cite where God is shown to be in control of a person’s life are in regards to those who have chosen to be ruled by God and not to everyone in general. The “Farmer’s Ox” is an example of this as this praying person had asked God to once again guide his life, just like the farmer guides his bulls so that they could do a productive work (Jer 31:18b).

The main issue here is not that man’s believe of freewill is causing all this wrong in the world, because a belief in something that is false does not make it so, but that they do have the freewill to obey or rebel against the will of God, however utterly futile this GC will prove this to be.

My beliefs in God’s sovereignty is that He has the power to overrule anything, and has, and will continue to do so, whenever something or some action by man causes the playing field in this GC to become unfair towards those who have chosen to do God’s will. And interestingly enough, when the wayward actions of His own professed people come to endanger His potential great work, as Ancient Israel repeatedly did when they acted more corruptly than the surrounding pagan nations around them.

If you can logically and Biblically explain why billions of people have died unsaved under this supposed “maturing plan of God” then you’ll begin to defend your view as Theologically viable. Hopefully your view is not that they will all be saved any way. Clearly to me, what happened here is that they died as a result of their persisted free choices. And by the way, God disciplined Nebuchanezzar, as he would his own people, because he was acting against great knowledge of God as seen in Dan 2 & 3. That however does not mean that God will do so with every heathen person. Most of these will suffer the natural results of their life which in most cases will be natural death and then the Second Death. It is only when their actions becomes high handed and threatening that God steps in to “level things”. Case in point, Nebuchanezzar who had previously publicly proclaimed throughout his kingdom that there was not greater God than the God of the Israelites (Dan 2:47ff; 3:28-30; 4:1-3) until he let his pride try to regain that acknowledgement and belief (Dan 4:25b, 26) and in doing so was knowingly shaming the name of God amongst those heathens. Whereas before those earlier revelations, he would have done so out of pure ignorance, as literally tens of thousands of other earthly rulers have done so, simply in worshipping other Gods or even themselves, he was now doing it against clear evidence to the contrary. So I here, as with many other examples that you have advanced, see that you are making an over generalization from specific examples in the Bible and indeed when all the exegetical points in a passage are also taken into consideration, they do not lead to the over applications that you are making.

So in summary, my view is that we all have free will and through this we can frustrate and delay God’s will since He needs people to have faith in him so that he can act in their favor to help them win this GC, even if, as it was the case with E.g., Moses, Ezekiel and Jesus, if He can genuinely find one man who will allow themselves to be an intercessor and/or bear the sins of others so that this favoring work can proceed. For him to do this against people’s will and/or without a genuine intercessor/sin-bearer would give the Devil the same opportunity to force people to do evil, and great overwhelming evil at that. And then this GC will become a full blown, active, physical angelic conflict, and since God and the Heavenly host would easily win this fight, as they had in Heaven at the beginning of this GC, then this is actually being done at Satan’s benefit. So, as with all other aspects of this GC, God’s methods always prove to be the fairest and the best for all parties implicated/involved, i.e., the Godhead, Angels, Unfallen Beings, Fallen Man Satan and Fallen Angels.
_________________________
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Top
#132908 - 04/25/11 12:02 PM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: NJK Project]
kland Offline
SDA
Active Member 2017

5000+ Member
Registered: 10/28/08
Posts: 5007
Loc: Midland
Originally Posted By: Elle
Acknowledging we have no Freewill reverse the Fall of Lucifer and Man

Thinking that we have the inherent abilities is the heart of Lucifer’s fall. This led into the belief that we can govern ourself as gods which he promoted at the tree of knowledge to man(Gn 3:5-6).
If I'm understanding correctly you to say we have no free will, it does sound from what you say that Lucifer had free will.
Top
Page 4 of 14 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 13 14 >

Moderator:  Green Cochoa 
Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
(Not Refreshing Immediately)
Wilderness Skills
by Alchemy
Today at 06:19 AM
A Woman Now Rides the Beast
by ProdigalOne
Yesterday at 05:37 AM
A new Global Economic Restructure in 2012
by Elle
Yesterday at 01:45 AM
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y
12/13/17 11:17 PM
Islam & Evangelicals on the Return of Jesus
by Daryl
12/11/17 01:48 PM
Fourth Quarter 2017 The Book of Romans
by dedication
12/09/17 07:37 PM
Global Warming Farce
by Alchemy
12/07/17 10:48 AM
What change took place in Hebrews 7:11-12?
by Alchemy
12/03/17 02:45 AM
Catholics Unite Against Enemies!
by ProdigalOne
12/02/17 01:43 PM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
FCC Eliminates Net Neutrality
by ProdigalOne
Yesterday at 05:50 AM
Tim Roosenberg & Daniel 11 & 12
by Alchemy
12/12/17 11:20 AM
The Godhead. I thought I believed this?
by APL
12/10/17 01:16 AM
Is the Coming of the Bridegroom in the Ten Virgins Parable actually Satan?!?
by Alchemy
11/25/17 03:57 AM
Ted Wilson's Concerns
by dedication
11/24/17 09:45 PM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter

Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com
WELCOME!
� 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.


"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!

Website Ranking