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Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #132730
04/16/11 07:48 PM
04/16/11 07:48 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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Posts: 22,256
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Tom, shall I assume you will respond to my posts when you have the time?

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #132737
04/17/11 01:11 AM
04/17/11 01:11 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Thanks Tom. End of discussion here for me, with pointedly you. You are irreparably too selectively oblivious and obfuscating, not to mention non-exegetical, to be worthwhile for me. There increasingly is nothing substantive and/or pertinently relevant to answer in your replies. (And as I had said, my errors are out of typos due to non-proof reading. I figured 99% correctly expressed text is better than ca. 65% text because of less time taken to proof read.) (Cf. Matt 23:23, 24)


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #132738
04/17/11 02:23 PM
04/17/11 02:23 PM
Mountain Man  Offline OP
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NJK, to study with Tom it requires tact, finesse, humility, and a lot of patients. He is very intelligent. He is also very kind and accommodating. Seek to discover what he believes. Share what you believe, but make your posts short and sweet. Long responses can be tedious. But don't give up. Hang in there. Studying with Tom and will help you grow in the graces of God.

Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #132740
04/18/11 01:13 AM
04/18/11 01:13 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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I can understand your advice here Mountain Man, but such a discussion with Tom is way too One-Way for me and “facts” are subjectively to be only what he’ll allow himself, from his ‘unimpeachable view’, to begin to recognize! Don’t need let my exegetical facts get in the way of that approach, and that, at my waste of time and effort! And anything else that has been brought up in this discussion instead of a head on answer to a question/comment, has really just been defensive, peripheral diversions.

And, in regards to Truth, I focus on the ‘substantive internals’, rather than the ‘indeterminative externals’. (Matt 23:25, 26). It is this ‘Truth that will set one free’, and not ‘polished externals’ or else we should all be, e.g., LDS by now.

Perhaps Tom will now have more time to answer/address your own points head on here!?

P.S. “Intelligence” can be objectively, substantively ascertain/measured/determined as patently done on e.g., various tests were only the correct answer along with the demonstration of mastering the subject do so prove that point.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Mountain Man] #132746
04/18/11 05:55 AM
04/18/11 05:55 AM
Tom  Offline
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Quote:
Tom, shall I assume you will respond to my posts when you have the time?


Yes. And thanks for the kind words on the other post.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #132747
04/18/11 06:03 AM
04/18/11 06:03 AM
Tom  Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK
Thanks Tom. End of discussion here for me, with pointedly you.


You could discuss things with kland, if he's willing. He sees things very similarly to how I do. APL also shares some similarities as well.

Quote:
You are irreparably too selectively oblivious and obfuscating, not to mention non-exegetical, to be worthwhile for me. There increasingly is nothing substantive and/or pertinently relevant to answer in your replies.


I don't think you're reading very carefully, to make a statement like this.

Quote:
(And as I had said, my errors are out of typos due to non-proof reading. I figured 99% correctly expressed text is better than ca. 65% text because of less time taken to proof read.)


The problem is not typos, but improper use of words, improper grammar, and, primarily, writing incoherently. Typos are obvious and easy to figure out, but when you leave out nouns, and verbs, and use one word when you really mean another, it makes it very difficult, if not impossible, to figure out what you're trying to say. I don't know if the difficulty is due to a lack of ability to write clearly, or a lack of desire. Whichever it is, the adage about not throwing stones when living in a glass house certainly applies.

It really is incredible that one who writes so poorly would be so critical. Your posts are an extreme example of the pot calling the kettle black.

Quote:
(Cf. Matt 23:23, 24)


This is a good example of what I'm talking about.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #132748
04/18/11 06:42 AM
04/18/11 06:42 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
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Quote:
M: Perhaps my question was poorly worded. I apologize for the confusion. I now understand you believe Jesus is free to choose between such options as preventing death and destruction or permitting it. He takes everything and everyone into consideration and then decides whether to prevent or permit death and destruction. The choice is His. Nothing happens by chance or fate.

T: Chance and fate are two very different things. I don't understand the purpose of this sentence. Indeed, everything you wrote above after "I not understand you believe ..." should read "I not understand I believe ..." as you're just repeating things you believe, is what it looks to me. What *I* believe is that God has created beings with free will, and these often, on earth, unfortunately, have chosen to act contrary to God's will, and *that's* why bad things happen. And similarly for the unfaithful angelic beings.

M:Do you believe Jesus is free to choose between such options as preventing death and destruction or permitting it, that He takes everything and everyone into consideration and then decides whether to prevent or permit death and destruction, that the choice is His, that nothing happens by chance or fate (the “or” denotes a difference)?


I agree that nothing happens by fate. I disagree that nothing happens by chance. If Jesus, or God, permits something to occur which happens by chance, that doesn't mean that the thing permitted to occur did not happen by chance. I believe there are things which happen by chance. For example, tossing a fair coin is an example. By chance it will be heads or tails. Many such examples could be given.

Quote:
M: As sovereign Lord and King, Jesus is ultimately in control – not sin, not sinners, and not Satan.

T: Satan and his followers are responsible in every way, including ultimately, for sin an all its results. God is entirely innocent. God is not in control of sinners.

M:If God is not in control of sinners, who, then, is protecting them?


By "in control of" I assume you mean "controlling." Or do you mean something else? If by "in control of" you mean "protecting," then I may agree with what you mean, if not what you're saying. That is, I certainly agree that God is protecting sinners.

Quote:
Yes, Satan is in control of what God permits, but he is not free to do as he pleases, otherwise, as you say, he would destroy everyone and everything.


This is a bad misstatement here, IMO. Let's say you have a child, but don't permit that child to stay out past 2:00am. Would it be fair for you to say that your child is not free to do as (s)he pleases?

Quote:
It’s not a question of whether or not God is innocent; it’s a question of whether or not He is in control.


The big question is if God is innocent, as God has been accused, and the Great Controversy in effect for this purpose.

Quote:
Of course He is innocent. He created free moral agents. They are free to obey and live or disobey and die. If they choose to sin and rebel, they are, ultimately, choosing capital punishment.


Neither Scripture nor the SOP state that by choosing sin they choose capital punishment. Both state that if they choose sin they are choosing death. The SOP states that the inevitable result of sin is death.

If evil comes about as a result of God's controlling actions, then He is not innocent of its happening.

Quote:

M: When Jesus decided N&A and the two bands of fifty were worthy of death, who or what caused the fire that burned them alive?

T: I don't think it matters what the exact mechanism was. I believe the principles laid out in GC 35-37 were at work.

M:It matters if sincere seekers of truth wrongly conclude (from your perspective) Jesus employed fire to burn them alive.


I assume you mean that from my perspective, the mechanism matters, if sincere seekers of truth wrongly conclude that Jesus employs fire to burn people alive. If this is what you mean, I still don't agree that the mechanism matters. I believe it's the principle that matters. A sincere seeker of truth, from my perspective, will not make conclusions about the mechanism involved which are not in harmony with God's character or the principles of His government, if he gets the principles right.

Quote:
In the case of N&A, the fire blazed out from the presence of God in the most holy place. And, in the case of the two bands of fifty, fire rained down from God in heaven. To say Jesus simply withdrew His protection and permitted (you have yet to say who) to cause fire to burn them alive begs the question – Why were His enemies in the most holy places in heaven and earth?


I disagree that it begs this question.

Quote:

T: You've read Job. What does it say?

M: Ellen wrote [quotes omitted by Tom] Quotes like the ones posted above make it clear to me Jesus and holy angels work to ensure evil angels do not exceed the limitations imposed upon them.

T: This seems like an odd response. I ask you what Job said, and you respond by saying, "Ellen wrote." Is "Ellen" a pseudonym of Job's? As I've often said, if permitted, Satan would destroy all human beings, which would not leave a Great Controversy to be fought.

M: For this reason, Satan is not free to do as he pleases.

T: He is, to a great degree, which is evident in looking at our world. He has to be free to do as he pleases in order for there to be a Great Controversy. This agrees with your understanding, doesn't it?

M:I hope you don’t mind me allowing Ellen to weigh in on the discussion. I trust her insights. Based on what I’ve read in the Bible and the SOP, I am convinced Satan is only as free as Jesus permits. Whatever he does is done by permission. All heaven, however, works to ensure he does not exceed the limitations Jesus imposes on evil men and angels.


You didn't answer my question. I'll repeat it.

Satan is free to do his will, to a great degree, which is evident in looking at our world. He has to be free to do as he pleases in order for there to be a Great Controversy. This agrees with your understanding, doesn't it?


Quote:

M: It is Jesus, not Satan, who ultimately establishes and enforces the degree of punishment meted out.

T: This is like saying it is Jesus, not Satan, who metes out and enforces the degree of punishment meted out when someone ignores the law of gravity. Sin causes misery, suffering, and death because of its nature. These things are what happen when one separates from God. It doesn't require an extra, unrelated, special action on the part of God for misery, suffering, and death to occur, but merely acting contrary to God's principles, and separating from Him, is sufficient. This is what "me first" does. "Me first" can not end up in anything other than misery, suffering, and death. These things are the fruit of Satan's government, of choosing his principles.

M:Yes, sinning results in unrest and unhappiness. But whether or not it results in death and destruction is entirely up to Jesus.


As stated, this is entirely untrue. The will of the sinner has to be given weight.

Quote:
Yes, we manage the choices, but Jesus manages the consequences so far as things like death and destruction is concerned.


Again, poorly stated. This makes it sound like God is responsible for evil. Permitting an evil thing to occur is not the same as causing it. Again, the will of the sinner must be given weight.

Quote:
For example, whether or not jumping off a cliff results in death is not up to gravity; instead, it’s up to Jesus.


Gravity plays a part. If a person is careless, and dies due to falling, it would be a terrible mistake to blame this on Jesus, or to suggest this was His will, or say anything which in any way would imply that He was to any degree in any way responsible.

Quote:
If He intercedes, death does not occur; otherwise, it does. But this example does not speak to the issues concerning capital punishment. In the cases of N&A and the two bands of fifty, there was no natural cause and effect law at work.


As you see things.

Quote:
Sinning does not result in fire blazing out from the presence of God in holy places and burning sinners alive. Fire is not self-acting. Neither is gravity. The laws of nature act the way they do because Jesus acts the way He does, that is, nature is a weapon in the arsenal of Jesus and does whatever He wields it to do.


I can think of few statements that I disagree with more adamantly than this. The fact that the phrase "weapon in the arsenal of Jesus" enters your thinking I find unfortunate.

Quote:
He employs nature to mete out capital punishment.


Same comment. I'm sorry you think this way.

Quote:
But not always; sometimes He uses His enemies, evil men and angels, to punish impenitent sinners.


Same comment. I'm sorry you view Jesus Christ is this way, as one using using different weapons in his arsenal to destroy; as a destroyer.

Quote:

M: It must irritate Satan to know he is not free to exercise his powers as he sees fit.

T: Satan is free to exercise his powers as he sees fit, to a great degree, or else there would be no Great Controversy. It's imperative that we understand that *all* the bad, all the evil, there is in the world, is the result of Satan, and none of it due to God. Satan gets irritated when his plans are thwarted, which is what happens when one chooses to follow God instead of him.

M:Amen! However, what qualifies as evil or bad?


Anything contrary to God's character qualifies. The law is a transcript of God's character. Also, Jesus Christ fully revealed the Father, so anything contrary to the revelation of Jesus Christ qualifies.

Quote:
Was it evil or bad when fire blazed out from the presence of God in holy places and burned sinners alive?


Burning people alive is a bad thing.

Quote:
Is death and destruction always deemed evil or bad?


Satan is the author of sin and all its results. Destruction and death are the results of sin, and hence, of Satan. I'm not sure if your question has a philosophical aspect to it. If a person has a terrible disease, death could be a blessing. Are you trying to get at this?

Quote:
Or, are their times when it counts as divine justice and judgment? For example, when Jesus commanded Moses to stone the Sabbath-breaker and the blasphemer to death, was it evil or bad?


We're going around in circles here. What I have said over and over again, dozens of times, is that to understand these event one must *first* (I emphasize "first" here, as in, before, or previous to) have a correct understanding of God's character. From my perspective, your misunderstanding the events because you're misunderstanding God's character.

I believe you perceive the events in a way that in contrary to that which Jesus Christ revealed, and hence, even the questions you ask don't make sense.

You and I completely disagree in regards to what's the cart and the horse here. What I think you think is that to correctly understand God's character, it's necessary to consider these events you're asking questions about in addition to considering the life and character of Jesus Christ, and then add these together, and this combination gives a correct understanding of God's character. What I'm saying is first Christ, then look at the other. As opposed to, look at Christ and the other events both at the same time.

Quote:

M: Like a chained lion, try as he might, he cannot tear to shreds the prey just out of reach. “Already nations are angry, already Satan is working with signs and lying wonders, and this will increase until the end. God will use his enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored.” {PC 136.3}

T: They are used as GC 35-37 explains.

M:I agree; always have. But the point is – It was Jesus who used evil angels and Roman soldiers as instruments to punish the impenitent Jews.


To assert this is to not read what GC 35-37 actually says, it seems very clear to me. For example:

Quote:
The Jews had forged their own fetters; they had filled for themselves the cup of vengeance. In the utter destruction that befell them as a nation, and in all the woes that followed them in their dispersion, they were but reaping the harvest which their own hands had sown. Says the prophet: "O Israel, thou hast destroyed thyself;" "for thou hast fallen by thine iniquity." Hosea 13:9; 14:1. Their sufferings are often represented as a punishment visited upon them by the direct decree of God. It is thus that the great deceiver seeks to conceal his own work. (GC 35)


I'm not sure how she could have stated the reverse of what you are asserting more clearly than this.

Quote:
Again, there was no natural cause and effect law at work. It was entirely arbitrary, imposed, meted out.


Same comment.

Quote:
Sinning does not result in soldiers killing sinners, at least not in the same sense cancer results in tissue damage and death.


Again, if you actually read what GC 35-37 says, I don't see how one conclude the things you are concluding.

Quote:
Also, is it a sin, evil, or bad when evil angels and soldiers kill impenitent sinners when God is using them as instruments to punish?


I think this is a FOTAP question (fallacy of the assumed premise).

Quote:

M: Did Jesus, while here in the flesh (as opposed to after He returned to heaven), choose to allow things like ungodly people being burned alive?

T: O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen [doth gather] her brood under [her] wings, and ye would not! (Luke 13:34)

M: You seem to be suggesting Jesus allowed ungodly people to be killed while He was here in the flesh. Who was killed?

T: In what Jesus said, He expressed that He was willing, desiring even, to protect Jerusalem as a chicken would protect its chicks. He was very sorry they did not permit Him to do so. This is the principle enunciated in GC 35-37.

M: I don’t understand how your response answers my question.

T: My answer describes the principle at work.

M: Is offering protection, while here in the flesh, from something that happened in 70 AD equivalent to Jesus allowing N&A and the two bands of fifty to be burned alive?

T: The same principles are at work. Your question should be if offering protection in the one case is equivalent to offering protection in the other, as this would be apples to apples, and I would respond "yes" to such a question.

M:Seems to me the cases of N&A and the two bands of fifty and the death of Jews in 70 AD are similar in the sense Jesus, from your perspective, would have simply withdrew His protection and permitted His enemies to cause the resulting death and destruction. If so, what protection was Jesus providing, until He withdrew it, in the cases of N&A and the two bands of fifty? Does fire lie in wait until Jesus gives it permission to selectively burn sinners alive? If so, doesn’t it imply fire is self-acting? If not, who, then, employed the fire that killed them?


There are a thousand dangers, all of them unseen, from which God protects us. These include ourselves (our actions, health issues), others (angelic or human), and natural disasters, to name three that come to me quickly. What I see you doing is think of incidents where you don't see any way the principles of GC 35-37 could apply. But I, and I'm sure kland, can easily think of ways. I'm not sure what kland would think of would agree with what I think, but it wouldn't matter to either of us, because we're both convinced of the principles which we see always apply. This is what I mean when I say the exact mechanism doesn't matter, as long as the principles hold fast. We're convinced of the principles because we're convinced regarding God's character.

What I've found most interesting in regards to this present post is that you appear to view what happened in the destruction very differently than I do. For example, you state that " the point is – It was Jesus who used evil angels and Roman soldiers as instruments to punish the impenitent Jews," when the point, as I see it, is that the Jews forged their own fetters, and that while many view God as punishing the impenitent Jews, it is the Great Deceiver who actually caused their destruction, hiding his own work by making others think it was God.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #132749
04/18/11 06:43 AM
04/18/11 06:43 AM
Tom  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Still really busy, MM. I took a long time with this last post, and don't know when I'll have this much time again in the near future, but if you'll tell me of any other posts you have which I haven't responded to, I'll give it a shot as I can.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: Tom] #132751
04/18/11 11:47 AM
04/18/11 11:47 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
(1) I long had figured the kland and APL possibility....

(2) When you do everything and anything but answer the issue head on, as in this answer itself, you are being: ‘selectively oblivious, defensive, obfuscating, non-exegetical, increasingly insubstantive and/or non-pertinently relevant, among other diversionary tactics of yours. In a court of law, you’d be charged with “contempt of court” following a plethora of various applicable “objections.” Your arguments are as substantively vacuous and diversionary as saying that: ‘despite the scientific rain forecast for this afternoon, it usurely won’t rain because of the present beautiful blue sky’!!?

(3) Knowing my traditional typing ordeal and considering my final products, I know it all stems from ‘thinking much faster than I can type’ and also ‘still thinking something through while I am typing’ which results in certain confusions at times = typos. So what you have been reading were really my brainstorming rough draft. And by your own condemnatory self-imposed standard here: I guess you really believe that “Place” means “Please” (post #132728)???? And I am not responsible for what you just did not/would not understand!

(4) Matt 23:23, 24 does stand because proper Biblical exegesis is infinitely more important than a polished final draft, but you probably really do not/cannot see or understand that fact...and do try the entire chapter of Matt 23 instead!!! Quite fitting for an SDA Seminarian. You really are a fine product of the SDA Theological Seminary. Can’t hold it against you for that!!


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Why did God command people to stone, scorch, and smite sinners to death? [Re: NJK Project] #132755
04/18/11 03:33 PM
04/18/11 03:33 PM
Tom  Offline
Active Member 2012
14500+ Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 14,795
Lawrence, Kansas
Quote:
(1) I long had figured the kland and APL possibility....


I like reading their posts. Hope that works out.

Quote:
(2) When you do everything and anything but answer the issue head on, as in this answer itself, you are being: ‘selectively oblivious, defensive, obfuscating, non-exegetical, increasingly insubstantive and/or non-pertinently relevant, among other diversionary tactics of yours. In a court of law, you’d be charged with “contempt of court” following a plethora of various applicable “objections.” Your arguments are as substantively vacuous and diversionary as saying that: ‘despite the scientific rain forecast for this afternoon, it usurely won’t rain because of the present beautiful blue sky’!!?


There are many questions you've ignored/not addressed/not answered, however you want to characterize it, but no one has accused you of whatever. There are many posts to wade through, and it's easy to overlook something. The thing to do when this happens is to repeat the thing you wish the other person would consider. You'll notice that MM and I do this routinely, and without calling each other names or making rash accusations.

Quote:
(3) Knowing my traditional typing ordeal and considering my final products, I know it all stems from ‘thinking much faster than I can type’ and also ‘still thinking something through while I am typing’ which results in certain confusions at times = typos. So what you have been reading were really my brainstorming rough draft. And by your own condemnatory self-imposed standard here: I guess you really believe that “Place” means “Please” (post #132728)???? And I am not responsible for what you just did not/would not understand!


This really is a beam vs. speck thing here. Your posts are just horrendous to read. There's no way you can compare your posts to mine in this regard. Sure I can miss a word here and there, but there's no comparison here. There are people that avoid discussing things with you just because they can't understand what you're saying.

You do many things inconsiderate of your reader. You don't quote Scripture texts, because that's too much work for you. You don't proof-read what you write. And you insult people. All this points to the fact that you consider yourself more highly than others. You've said as much. Your time is more important, others are "worthwhile" to deal with, and so forth. None of this speaks well to any views you hold. The admonition of Scripture is that we put others more highly than ourselves.

Quote:
(4) Matt 23:23, 24 does stand because proper Biblical exegesis is infinitely more important than a polished final draft, but you probably really do not/cannot see or understand that fact...and do try the entire chapter of Matt 23 instead!!!


Another insult. That's fitting.

Quote:
Quite fitting for an SDA Seminarian.


And another.

Quote:
You really are a fine product of the SDA Theological Seminary.


And another.

Quote:
Can’t hold it against you for that!!


And another.

I don't understand why you think insulting other people is OK. I also don't understand why you prefer to do this rather than deal with the issues involved. I also don't understand why you are unable to deal with the issues involved without insulting others.


Those who wait for the Bridegroom's coming are to say to the people, "Behold your God." The last rays of merciful light, the last message of mercy to be given to the world, is a revelation of His character of love.
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