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Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Rosangela] #133323
05/07/11 07:26 AM
05/07/11 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
The inference is wrong, so the conclusion is wrong. The word in Dan. 12:12 is alph - a thousand, while the word in Dan. 8:14 is alphim - two thousand, as the supphix "im" indicates "two."


To be even more specific here, as it is interpretationally significant, given that the qualifying cardinal number “two” is also used in Hebrew (Strong’s#08147 e.g, Gen 1:16), “alphim” here is a “dual”, thus literally saying: ‘unto a couple of thousand and three hundred...’

(Interestingly enough, if applicable, the first of these ‘1000 years’ takes one to ca. the setting up of the Church State Apostasy (ca. 544 A.D.) And then the second ‘1000 years’ (=1544 A.D. to time by which the “Protestant Church, under the Reforms of Martin Luther (d. 1546) had been established. Then ‘300 years’ to fine tune that and further Reform that Protestant Movement into the Remnant Church.)


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: NJK Project] #133324
05/07/11 07:27 AM
05/07/11 07:27 AM
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His Child, I have some potentially view-pertinent questions from your related [url=]Youtube clip[/url] for your “Put out the Light” book.

1. At 00:11-00:18 when you speak of the Mark of the Beast, you show a barcode and a microchip. Do you believe that the Mark of the Beast is and/or involves, bar codes and microchips?

2. At 00:30, when speaking of “the identity of Antichrist” you show a picture of President Barack Obama. Are you saying/implying that He is the Antichrist.

I would presume “No” for both questions and that these are just attention-getting depictions and/or reflections of popular beliefs, however I am not sure as I have never seen an SDA advertise a prophetic study with these methods. Usually images representing our actual beliefs are used (e.g., symbolic beasts, even real life images of the Papacy, symbols of the Roman Catholic Church, etc.)

3. At the end, you post your email loudcry.2007@-----.com. What does the 2007mean/indicate here. I.e., is that the “prophetic time” when you had reckoned that the Loud Cry would begin, or actually fully transpire/end?


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Rosangela] #133343
05/07/11 07:48 PM
05/07/11 07:48 PM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
What about Ellen White? She believed that Miller's and Smith's views on the past fulfillment of the trumpets was correct. She endorsed the teaching of Josiah Litch on the fulfillment of the sixth trumpet in The Great Controversy. But she saw no inconsistency in urging a future application to the trumpets. But will this convince you Roseangela?

Mark,
I'm not sure EGW believed Miller's and Smith's view of the trumpets was correct, or that she endorsed the teaching of Josiah Litch about the 6th trumpet (which seems to include a mistake). Neither am I certain that she makes a future application of the trumpets. In fact, I have no definite position about the trumpets. . .


I'm glad you're open to a possible future application of the trumpets. Why not study it out for yourself and as part of your study, analyze whether Ellen White applied the trumpets to the past; for example, have a close look at her inclusion of the Litch prediction of the Aug 11, 1840 fall of the Ottoman Empire in the Great Controversy. If there is a mistake in that part of the book, analyze that and not only whether the prophet accidentally accepted the mistake but more importantly whether she misapplied the passage. We’d agree that it’s one thing for a prophet to accidentally get an historic date wrong, but another to misapply scripture. And then look at the scripture and her writings on their possible future application. The trumpets is a good test case for the supposition that a time prophecy has to be either all symbolic or all literal. More on this in the next post.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Charity] #133344
05/07/11 07:56 PM
05/07/11 07:56 PM
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One of the main passages that gives rise to the day/year principle is the 40 years of wilderness living God imposed on rebellious Israel. For each day of the 40 days that the 12 spies spent in the Promised Land gathering intelligence, Israel was to wander for a year.
Quote:

After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise. Num 14:34


It’s interesting though the three greatest men of faith in scripture – Moses, Elijah and Christ - all spent 40 days in the same wilderness fasting and praying and communing with God. The Spirit is saying by this that whereas the 40 days of privation endured by the champions of faith had the intended result - strengthening these men for their work - spiritual Israel may languish in unbelief for years rather than days in failing to meet the same test.

Historically, God’s people were led into the wilderness and nourished in the wilderness for 40 years and again for 1260 years. On the Millerite and pioneer charts of the 1840’s and 50’s, there are two 1260 day periods that span 2520 years, the first period the punishment of literal Israel and the second the punishment of the church, spiritual Israel. It would be consistent with this pattern for the church to find itself again in the “wilderness” as it preaches the third angel’s messages under intense persecution for a literal 3.5 year period while the dragon attempts to carry her away with a flood. Whereas the Millerites and the Seventh-day Adventist pioneers believed the two 1260 year periods to be the scattering and chastening time, when men and women of faith at the end of time lead the battle charge and are led once again into the wilderness of testing, what took a year will take a day.

That’s the message of the two witnesses of Revelation 11. They have the same faith experience as those of Moses and Elijah, they are granted the same powers as these great men of faith and they fulfill the Seventh-day Adventist commission to prophecy again.

Quote:
Rev 10:10 And I took the little book out of the angel's hand, and ate it up; and it was in my mouth sweet as honey: and as soon as I had eaten it, my belly was bitter.
Rev 10:11 And he said unto me, Thou must prophesy again before many peoples, and nations, and tongues, and kings.
Rev 11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.
Rev 11:2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
Rev 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
Rev 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
Rev 11:6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
Rev 11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
Rev 11:8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
Rev 11:9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Charity] #133347
05/07/11 10:42 PM
05/07/11 10:42 PM
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The other passage establishing the day/year principle is in Ezekiel 4.

Quote:
Eze 4:1 Thou also, son of man, take thee a tile, and lay it before thee, and pourtray upon it the city, even Jerusalem:
Eze 4:2 And lay siege against it, and build a fort against it, and cast a mount against it; set the camp also against it, and set battering rams against it round about.
Eze 4:3 Moreover take thou unto thee an iron pan, and set it for a wall of iron between thee and the city: and set thy face against it, and it shall be besieged, and thou shalt lay siege against it. This shall be a sign to the house of Israel.
Eze 4:4 Lie thou also upon thy left side, and lay the iniquity of the house of Israel upon it: according to the number of the days that thou shalt lie upon it thou shalt bear their iniquity.
Eze 4:5 For I have laid upon thee the years of their iniquity, according to the number of the days, three hundred and ninety days: so shalt thou bear the iniquity of the house of Israel.
Eze 4:6 And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.


Notice the close parallel between the circumstances of this prophecy and the 40 years of wilderness wandering and humbling. Here Judah is punished, but in this case it’s the reverse scenario; rather than suffering and wandering 40 years as punishment for 40 days of unbelief, here the punishment is 40 days of siege punishment for 40 years of unfaithfulness. And the same parallel is seen in the case of Israel; for 390 years of iniquity the siege was to last 390 days. So the time periods are reversed – in Numbers it’s a year for a day but here it’s a day for a year.

Consider the implications. The two passages that establish the day/year principle operate both ways. So we have one prophecy of 40 represent days and the same period is the second case representing years. It's the context that determines which applies.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Charity] #133349
05/07/11 10:52 PM
05/07/11 10:52 PM
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But notice that these year/day, day/year periods are both periods of punishment/humbling of Isreal. If we accept the two periods of 1260 years taught by the pioneers on the same basis they taught them – years of punishment, scattering – it’s not a big step to see that if the church responds in faith to its final testing the church can be gathered in 1260 days.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Charity] #133351
05/08/11 12:51 AM
05/08/11 12:51 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Mark,

Quote:
I'm glad you're open to a possible future application of the trumpets.

I have not studied this subject yet, so I cannot assume a position.

Quote:
It’s interesting though the three greatest men of faith in scripture – Moses, Elijah and Christ - all spent 40 days in the same wilderness fasting and praying and communing with God. The Spirit is saying by this that whereas the 40 days of privation endured by the champions of faith had the intended result - strengthening these men for their work - spiritual Israel may languish in unbelief for years rather than days in failing to meet the same test.

There is no prophecy linking the 40-day-fast of these persons to the future experience of the church.

Quote:
Historically, God’s people were led into the wilderness and nourished in the wilderness for 40 years and again for 1260 years. On the Millerite and pioneer charts of the 1840’s and 50’s, there are two 1260 day periods that span 2520 years, the first period the punishment of literal Israel and the second the punishment of the church, spiritual Israel. It would be consistent with this pattern for the church to find itself again in the “wilderness” as it preaches the third angel’s messages under intense persecution for a literal 3.5 year period while the dragon attempts to carry her away with a flood. Whereas the Millerites and the Seventh-day Adventist pioneers believed the two 1260 year periods to be the scattering and chastening time, when men and women of faith at the end of time lead the battle charge and are led once again into the wilderness of testing, what took a year will take a day.

One cannot pick and choose which prophecies have a double fulfillment. Do the 1260 days of Dan. 7:25 have a double fulfillment? Are they the same 1260 days of Dan. 12? And of Rev. 11? Do the 1290 and 1335 days of Dan. 12 have a double fulfillment? Do the 2300 days have a double fulfillment? Do the 70 weeks (or a part of them) have a double fulfillment? Has the double fulfillment for these prophecies occurred yet or are they in the future? Several people say several things and they are often in disagreement with one another about their views. Once these views are accepted, the day/year principle is discredited and eventually abandoned, and confusion sets in.
(By the way, Miller and the Millerites had several prophetic interpretations which Ellen White never endorsed.)

Quote:
So the time periods are reversed – in Numbers it’s a year for a day but here it’s a day for a year.

About this, I would quote the following:

Quote:
Now some have tried to say that here God is letting a year of iniquity be represented by a day of Ezekiel's affliction. Thus they claim that Numbers 14:34 gives a day for a year, but Ezekiel 4:6 gives a year for a day. They say these two equations represent an inversion and are not equivalent equations. Yet see the phrase repeated in each of the verses: A DAY FOR A YEAR, A DAY FOR A YEAR.
The text in Ezekiel is not really an inversion at all. "It is not backwards". Read it over again, and see that the message or symbolic prophecy is in days, while the actual fulfilment was in years.
Ezekiel is commanded by the LORD, to act out a prophecy, which is recorded in chapter four. Just because a prophecy is acted out rather than spoken doesn't mean it isn't a prophecy. Yes, he acted it out for literal days, but these days are still symbolic for real events that are not symbolic.
http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/dan/year_day.html


Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Rosangela] #133383
05/09/11 08:17 PM
05/09/11 08:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
So, to me things are clear. Daniel's message was sealed until the time of the end. As Daniel inquired when the time of the end would be, the answer was that it would be after a time, times and a half (1260 days); there is then a mention to the 1290 days and blessing on those who come to the 1335 days. Then it's said that Daniel would stand in his lot at the end of the days. Ellen White says that the time of the end would be at the proclamation of the 1st angel's message; since then Daniel is standing in his lot. She says this was in the advent movement of 1840-1844, but specially in 1842/1843. Remember that according to the Historicist interpretation the 1335 days end in 1843. So it's clear that the 1260 go from 538 to 1798, the 1290 from 508 to 1798, and the 1335 from 508 to 1843. There is a perfect harmony between this interpretation and what the Bible and Ellen White say.
Some questions come to mind is, there is more than 1 angel, right? When did she write those things? What of Daniel 12 are we to apply to the future?

Quote:

Quote:
Is there anything in Daniel 12 that applies to the future?

Sure. Verses 1-3. They portray the very end of the time of the end. The verses following these speak about the beginning of the time of the end.

I did say "Daniel 12", but didn't intend to mean what was part of Daniel 11. You may want to consult the Commentary on that.



I was watching the Creation and Evolution Debate with Dr. Standish, and he spoke about people's "world view". Coal is supposedly millions of years old. But yet, when they test it, they find C14 in it. A creationist with his world view says, that indicates it is less than 100,000 years old. An evolutionist with his world view says, well, it didn't come from coal because it is way too old to contain any, therefore it must be from contamination. Their world view prohibits them from even considering anything else. I believe it is subconsciously.

Likewise, I believe you have a world view that all of Daniel has already happened in the past. I have asked multiple times, and you have switched to other topics. I believe your world view is giving you a mental block from being able to even consider there may be a future application of Daniel 12. When I was reading your quotes and especially what you have bolded, I couldn't figure out what you were saying as it seemed the exact opposite. I guess it depends upon your world view.

You have not distinguished between historicism and tradition leading me to believe you consider them the same. However, whose tradition should you go with. Again, you may want to consult the commentary as there is more than one view. I can't change your world view and neither can the commentary. I can only suggest you consider the possibility.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: kland] #133387
05/09/11 08:55 PM
05/09/11 08:55 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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kland,

What you said also applies to yourself. Now, I haven't switched to other topics. I have sticken to the subject. I don't believe all prophecies apply to the past - I'm not a preterist. My view is Historicism - which means that all prophecies are fulfilled within history. Of course human history is still in progress, so there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled. Now, if you ask me if I believe that there are still time prophecies to be fulfilled, I'll tell you I don't. Why? Simply because I don't believe this world will last long enough for another 1260 (or 1290, or 1335) years to fulfill a prophecy. I do distinguish between Historicism and tradition, but you don't seem to distinguish between Historicism and ecleticism. Within Historicism, all prophecies are interpreted within the pattern of a day for a year. Now, if you don't see anything wrong in arbitrarily interpreting prophecies in some instances as a day for a year, and in other instances as a day for a day, what else can I say? However, you should be aware that the pattern you are following is not a historicist one, but an ecleticist one.

Re: Obscure Prophetic Statements by EG White [Re: Rosangela] #133405
05/10/11 11:10 AM
05/10/11 11:10 AM
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Charity  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela


Quote:
So the time periods are reversed – in Numbers it’s a year for a day but here it’s a day for a year.

About this, I would quote the following:

Quote:
Now some have tried to say that here God is letting a year of iniquity be represented by a day of Ezekiel's affliction. Thus they claim that Numbers 14:34 gives a day for a year, but Ezekiel 4:6 gives a year for a day. They say these two equations represent an inversion and are not equivalent equations. Yet see the phrase repeated in each of the verses: A DAY FOR A YEAR, A DAY FOR A YEAR.
The text in Ezekiel is not really an inversion at all. "It is not backwards". Read it over again, and see that the message or symbolic prophecy is in days, while the actual fulfilment was in years.
Ezekiel is commanded by the LORD, to act out a prophecy, which is recorded in chapter four. Just because a prophecy is acted out rather than spoken doesn't mean it isn't a prophecy. Yes, he acted it out for literal days, but these days are still symbolic for real events that are not symbolic.
http://dedication.www3.50megs.com/dan/year_day.html


Have another look. Is the seige/punishment symbolic or literal? The seige is the punishment and there is no doubt it occurred literally and it was as the author notes a 'day for a year', whereas the punishment of Israel in the wilderness was the opposite, a year of punishment for a day of spying/unbelief.

What's bad about spying? The Isrealites should have trusted God that He would give them a good land. The spying was not necessary and was positively harmful.

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