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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Rosangela] #133931
05/31/11 05:09 PM
05/31/11 05:09 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Um...good point. I guess "chronic, habitual drunkeness" is NOT a sin. Thanks for pointing that out. (tongue-in-cheek)

This is very close to my point. I do not hold drinking to be a sin, but I do think a "drunken lifestyle" is. I'm also a bit confused by your question. What point are you arguing? You seem to have gone from "all alcohol is sinful" to "drunkeness is not a sin."

?
What is the difference between "chronic, habitual drunkenness" and a "drunken lifestyle"? Why is the latter a sin but the former isn't? To me, they are the same thing.

Paul says clearly that no drunkard will inherit the kingdom of God:

"Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God" (Gal. 5:19-21).

"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God" (1 Cor. 6:9, 10).

I don't know how something can prevent someone from going to heaven and yet not be a sin.

My point is that drunkenness is a sin, a violation of one of the commandments of the law of God. But notice that no commandment mentions drunkenness specifically.


Rosangela,

You are helping to build the case for me. In that same statement in which Paul says drunkards won't be in Heaven, he also disbars adulterers. Does that mean Abraham, Jacob, David, et al. won't be there? Or does that mean they were not committing adultery?

You can't have it both ways.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #133947
05/31/11 07:04 PM
05/31/11 07:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
M: Do you really believe Jesus would advice a guy down on his luck to - Get drunk and forget about it!

GC: No, I do not see Jesus saying this. However, there are others who did indeed seem to say it, would you not agree? Jesus did not command the adultress to be stoned. Yet Moses commanded the Levites to kill "every man his neighbor" etc. following the worship of the Golden Calf. The difference? Time, place and circumstance. Perhaps with wine it is the same difference.

If not Jesus, who, then, in Prov 31 counseled people down on their luck to - Get drunk and forget about it?

There is no contradiction or evolution between Jesus in the NT and Jesus in the OT. It was Jesus who commanded Moses to kill ungodly people. We cannot assume, based on the mistaken notion there is a contradiction or evolution between Jesus in the OT and Jesus in the NT, that wine and strong drink and drunkenness, therefore, was advised in the OT and forbidden in the NT.

Quote:
GC: By the way, the statement, Mike, that you made earlier about the wine recommended to Timothy for his stomach's sake being pure grape juice--that cannot be proven. The Greek word "wine" encompasses both grape juice and strong drink. Any time the word is used, it could be one or the other, or even both. There is simply no possibility of proving that the wine recommended to Timothy would have been understood by Timothy himself to mean only grape juice, and nothing more.

K: Was all that was recommended to Timothy, should that be recommended to us?

M: And, how much wine was dosed to treat stomach disorders? Did it cause drunkenness?

GC: If you have found a scripture to answer that question of the dosage, I have not. What I have seen is relatively lacking in terms of quantification. But it says "a little wine." That is not the same as "a lot," but it does not tell us whether this would be a thimble full (like is in many cough syrups and elixirs today), or if it were a full glass. It probably does not mean a full pitcher, in any case, and therefore would be unlikely to have caused drunkenness. For some reason, the communion wine which we partake of is given as but a thimble full. Is this to keep us from potential drunkenness? I hesitate to suggest such a sacrilegious thought. But I have often wondered why the communion ceremony boasts such small portions. I am certain the disciples with Jesus had larger ones. It was their supper.

I agree the dose Paul recommended was "unlikely to have caused drunkenness". In fact, I believe it definitely would not have caused drunkenness. The Bible absolutely forbids and condemns drunkenness.

I hear you, though, suggesting someone in Prov 31, though certainly not Jesus, clearly counseled people down on their their luck to get drunk.

Also, Jesus served grape juice during the last supper. Do you agree?

Quote:
GC: I do not think I am willing to try to guess at what is "drunk." Proverbs allows for drinking to the point of "forgetting." Whatever level that is. Certainly, they did not have blood alcohol tests.

If the Bible does not clarify what counts as "drunkenness", how, then, can God determine in judgment what counts as the sin of drunkenness and what counts as merely the joy and pleasure of drinking fine wine and indulging tasty spirits?

Does the Bible say it is acceptable for children to drink wine and strong drink? If not, why not? Does the Bible say anything for or against children drinking wine or strong drink?

Is counseling someone down on their luck to get drunk so they can forget about their problems really work? That is, does getting drunk really cause them to forget their problems? Would blowing what little money they have left on getting drunk really improve their situation?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Mountain Man] #133958
06/01/11 03:41 AM
06/01/11 03:41 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
If not Jesus, who, then, in Prov 31 counseled people down on their luck to - Get drunk and forget about it?

There is no contradiction or evolution between Jesus in the NT and Jesus in the OT. It was Jesus who commanded Moses to kill ungodly people. We cannot assume, based on the mistaken notion there is a contradiction or evolution between Jesus in the OT and Jesus in the NT, that wine and strong drink and drunkenness, therefore, was advised in the OT and forbidden in the NT.


I agree, Mike, that God has not changed. I will disagree, however, that the rules have never changed. There are many evidences of things which have changed.

Here are a few examples so that you see where I'm coming from:

Sacrificial system
Meat eating
Aaronites vs Levites as priests
Theocracy / Monarchy / Foreign government
Stoning / Mercy?


The facts are, things can and do change at times with respect to the circumstances and times. God is not vague in His expectations, but those expectations are not always the same.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #133961
06/01/11 12:03 PM
06/01/11 12:03 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Regardless of whether I miss or not miss any other points, the question still stands for GC and JAK,

What do you think drunk is?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #133964
06/01/11 01:57 PM
06/01/11 01:57 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
The facts are, things can and do change at times with respect to the circumstances and times.

But if God doesn't change, His moral standards don't change. What is right is always right, and what's wrong is always wrong. God may have tolerated some things in the OT. This doesn't mean He approved these things.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Mountain Man] #133965
06/01/11 03:32 PM
06/01/11 03:32 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
M: Do you really believe Jesus would advice a guy down on his luck to - Get drunk and forget about it!

GC: No, I do not see Jesus saying this. However, there are others who did indeed seem to say it, would you not agree? Jesus did not command the adultress to be stoned. Yet Moses commanded the Levites to kill "every man his neighbor" etc. following the worship of the Golden Calf. The difference? Time, place and circumstance. Perhaps with wine it is the same difference.

M: If not Jesus, who, then, in Prov 31 counseled people down on their luck to - Get drunk and forget about it? There is no contradiction or evolution between Jesus in the NT and Jesus in the OT. It was Jesus who commanded Moses to kill ungodly people. We cannot assume, based on the mistaken notion there is a contradiction or evolution between Jesus in the OT and Jesus in the NT, that wine and strong drink and drunkenness, therefore, was advised in the OT and forbidden in the NT.

GC: I agree, Mike, that God has not changed. I will disagree, however, that the rules have never changed. There are many evidences of things which have changed. The facts are, things can and do change at times with respect to the circumstances and times. God is not vague in His expectations, but those expectations are not always the same. Here are a few examples so that you see where I'm coming from:

Sacrificial system
Meat eating
Aaronites vs Levites as priests
Theocracy / Monarchy / Foreign government
Stoning / Mercy?

Yes, God adapts to time and circumstances. But He never compromises the truth. He never once tolerated or permitted drunkenness. He always condemned it. Yes, He always forgave it when sinners repented and sought forgiveness. Besides the Bible, Jesus also clarified the issue through the SOP, which leaves no doubt about it. The examples you listed above do not prove God tolerated or permitted drunkenness. I suspect you agree.

Quote:
GC: By the way, the statement, Mike, that you made earlier about the wine recommended to Timothy for his stomach's sake being pure grape juice--that cannot be proven. The Greek word "wine" encompasses both grape juice and strong drink. Any time the word is used, it could be one or the other, or even both. There is simply no possibility of proving that the wine recommended to Timothy would have been understood by Timothy himself to mean only grape juice, and nothing more.

K: Was all that was recommended to Timothy, should that be recommended to us?

M: And, how much wine was dosed to treat stomach disorders? Did it cause drunkenness?

GC: If you have found a scripture to answer that question of the dosage, I have not. What I have seen is relatively lacking in terms of quantification. But it says "a little wine." That is not the same as "a lot," but it does not tell us whether this would be a thimble full (like is in many cough syrups and elixirs today), or if it were a full glass. It probably does not mean a full pitcher, in any case, and therefore would be unlikely to have caused drunkenness. For some reason, the communion wine which we partake of is given as but a thimble full. Is this to keep us from potential drunkenness? I hesitate to suggest such a sacrilegious thought. But I have often wondered why the communion ceremony boasts such small portions. I am certain the disciples with Jesus had larger ones. It was their supper.

I agree the dose Paul recommended was "unlikely to have caused drunkenness". In fact, I believe it definitely would not have caused drunkenness. The Bible absolutely forbids and condemns drunkenness. I hear you, though, suggesting someone in Prov 31, though certainly not Jesus, clearly counseled people down on their their luck to get drunk. But who? Also, Jesus served grape juice during the last supper. Do you agree?

Quote:
GC: I do not think I am willing to try to guess at what is "drunk." Proverbs allows for drinking to the point of "forgetting." Whatever level that is. Certainly, they did not have blood alcohol tests.

If the Bible does not clarify what counts as "drunkenness", how, then, can God determine in judgment what counts as the sin of drunkenness and what counts as merely using alcohol medicinally?

Does the Bible say it is acceptable for children to drink wine and strong drink? If not, why not? Does the Bible say anything for or against children drinking wine or strong drink? As long as they avoid drunkenness why would it be any different than adults doing it?

Does counseling someone down on their luck to get drunk really help them forget their problems? Does getting drunk really cause them to forget their problems? Would blowing what little money they have left on getting drunk really improve their situation? Wouldn't it add to their problems? I cannot imagine God approving of someone counseling people to get drunk. Therefore, I think it is clear the counsel in Prov 31 cannot possibly refer to drunkenness. Do you agree?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Rosangela] #133972
06/01/11 05:55 PM
06/01/11 05:55 PM
J
JAK  Offline
FORMER-SDA
Active Member 2018
Banned
Senior Member
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 663
Canada
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
But if God doesn't change, His moral standards don't change. What is right is always right, and what's wrong is always wrong. God may have tolerated some things in the OT. This doesn't mean He approved these things.


You've painted yourself into a corner, Rosangela. IF God doesn't change, and he tolerated something in the OT, then he tolerates it in the NT also, and today as well. (Which, by default, makes it O.K.)

I also challenge the "What is right is always right, and what's wrong is always wrong" fallacy. Judah's sons were put to death (by God) for not sleeping with their brother's wife. I'm fairly certain God does not want ME sleeping with my brother's wife (in the same situation.)

(P.S. If someone wants to take up the challenge above, it should be done in a separate thread.)

Last edited by JAK; 06/01/11 05:57 PM.

"All that is Gold does not Glitter, Not all who Wander are Lost." (J.R.R.T.)
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: JAK] #133979
06/01/11 09:23 PM
06/01/11 09:23 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
You've painted yourself into a corner, Rosangela. IF God doesn't change, and he tolerated something in the OT, then he tolerates it in the NT also, and today as well. (Which, by default, makes it O.K.)

I've painted myself into no corner, JAK.

"They said to Him, 'Why then did Moses command to give a certificate of divorce, and to put her away?' He said to them, "Moses, because of the hardness of your hearts, permitted you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so" (Matt. 19:7,8).

Divorce, polygamy, slavery, drinking alcohol - all fit in this category.

I'll reply to the other statement of yours in the "The Bible and Polygamy" thread.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #133993
06/02/11 12:09 AM
06/02/11 12:09 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: kland
Regardless of whether I miss or not miss any other points, the question still stands for GC and JAK,

What do you think drunk is?

kland, I think this question is irrelevant. The Bible does not address it. I have never tasted alcohol, and have no experience upon which to speak. I am not a medical professional. For multiple counts here, I feel this question is but a red herring and not productive. There are several other salient points to this discussion which would be more meaningful.

There is no text in scripture which says "go out and get drunk." On the other hand, there is conversely no text saying "don't ever get drunk."

I can, however, partially answer your question, kland. I can say with certainty that not everyone who drinks alcohol gets drunk. One sip won't do it. Perhaps a cup won't do it. Beyond that, it is simply too ambiguous to draw lines. I do not have a definition for "drunk" which could be supported fully on scripture alone. Certainly, we all know what it means to us in our modern thinking.

We do have some clues. Uriah, Bathsheba's husband, was said to have been made "drunk" by David before being sent home. He still had sufficient presence of mind to stick to his morals and did not go in unto his wife as David had hoped he would. So it is conceivable that "drunk" in those days was less inebriated than our modern definition. On the other hand, if we used a BAC of 0.08, that is probably less than Uriah would have had.

I simply cannot quantify "drunk" for you, kland, from the Bible. If you are able, please do.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #134007
06/02/11 02:20 AM
06/02/11 02:20 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
GC, Jesus refused even a sip of alcohol. I believe His example reflects God's thoughts about it in the OT. God has not left us in doubt as to how much alcohol is too much.

Quote:
The wine which Christ provided for the feast, and that which He gave to the disciples as a symbol of His own blood, was the pure juice of the grape. To this the prophet Isaiah refers when he speaks of the new wine "in the cluster," and says, "Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it." Isaiah 65:8. {DA 149.3}

It was Christ who in the Old Testament gave the warning to Israel, "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Proverbs 20:1. And He Himself provided no such beverage. Satan tempts men to indulgence that will becloud reason and benumb the spiritual perceptions, but Christ teaches us to bring the lower nature into subjection. His whole life was an example of self-denial. In order to break the power of appetite, He suffered in our behalf the severest test that humanity could endure. It was Christ who directed that John the Baptist should drink neither wine nor strong drink. It was He who enjoined similar abstinence upon the wife of Manoah. And He pronounced a curse upon the man who should put the bottle to his neighbor's lips. Christ did not contradict His own teaching. The unfermented wine which He provided for the wedding guests was a wholesome and refreshing drink. Its effect was to bring the taste into harmony with a healthful appetite. {DA 149.4}

Persons who have inherited an appetite for unnatural stimulants should by no means have wine, beer, or cider in their sight, or within their reach; for this keeps the temptation constantly before them. Regarding sweet cider as harmless, many have no scruples in purchasing it freely. But it remains sweet for a short time only; then fermentation begins. The sharp taste which it then acquires makes it all the more acceptable to many palates, and the user is loath to admit that it has become hard, or fermented. {MH 331.4}

There is danger to health in the use of even sweet cider as ordinarily produced. If people could see what the microscope reveals in regard to the cider they buy, few would be willing to drink it. Often those who manufacture cider for the market are not careful as to the condition of the fruit used, and the juice of wormy and decayed apples is expressed. Those who would not think of using the poisonous, rotten apples in any other way, will drink the cider made from them, and call it a luxury; but the microscope shows that even when fresh from the press, this pleasant beverage is wholly unfit for use. {MH 332.1}

Intoxication is just as really produced by wine, beer, and cider as by stronger drinks. The use of these drinks awakens the taste for those that are stronger, and thus the liquor habit is established. Moderate drinking is the school in which men are educated for the drunkard's career. Yet so insidious is the work of these milder stimulants that the highway to drunkenness is entered before the victim suspects his danger. {MH 332.2}

Some who are never considered really drunk are always under the influence of mild intoxicants. They are feverish, unstable in mind, unbalanced. Imagining themselves secure, they go on and on, until every barrier is broken down, every principle sacrificed. The strongest resolutions are undermined, the highest considerations are not sufficient to keep the debased appetite under the control of reason. {MH 332.3}

The Bible nowhere sanctions the use of intoxicating wine. The wine that Christ made from water at the marriage feast of Cana was the pure juice of the grape. This is the "new wine . . . found in the cluster," of which the Scripture says, "Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it." Isaiah 65:8. {MH 333.1}

It was Christ who, in the Old Testament, gave the warning to Israel, "Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging: and whosoever is deceived thereby is not wise." Proverbs 20:1. He Himself provided no such beverage. Satan tempts men to indulgence that will becloud reason and benumb the spiritual perceptions, but Christ teaches us to bring the lower nature into subjection. He never places before men that which would be a temptation. His whole life was an example of self-denial. It was to break the power of appetite that in the forty days' fast in the wilderness He suffered in our behalf the severest test that humanity could endure. It was Christ who directed that John the Baptist should drink neither wine nor strong drink. It was He who enjoined similar abstinence upon the wife of Manoah. Christ did not contradict His own teaching. The unfermented wine that He provided for the wedding guests was a wholesome and refreshing drink. This is the wine that was used by our Saviour and His disciples in the first Communion. It is the wine that should always be used on the Communion table as a symbol of the Saviour's blood. The sacramental service is designed to be soul-refreshing and life-giving. There is to be connected with it nothing that could minister to evil. {MH 333.2}

"The Bible nowhere sanctions the use of intoxicating wine." Simply touching one's lips with a cup of alcohol is sufficient to incur the curse of God.

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