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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #134094
06/03/11 02:44 PM
06/03/11 02:44 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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GC, you are not being your usual self. You are avoiding questions and overlooking plain statements from the pen of inspiration. Ellen's comments are too clear to misunderstand. They cannot be misconstrued to mean Jesus permitted drinking alcohol and drunkenness in the past but has since then raised the standard to forbid it. I am very surprised at the way your are handling this topic and thread.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #134096
06/03/11 03:09 PM
06/03/11 03:09 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: kland
Both of you say being drunk is wrong, but refuse to define what drunk is. So how will you know what is wrong? How can it be irrelevant to ask you to define what you think is wrong?

While the circumstances are different, is it just me or does anyone else see a similarity to a certain senator who, when questioned if he sent a nude photo with his cell phone, refused to answer and proceeded to go on about irrelevant things?


God is the Judge. The Lord looks on the heart, while man can merely see the outward appearance. We are not qualified to make such sharp distinctions which only God can make. And praise the Lord, God is merciful!
So are you now saying that you cannot say that being drunk is wrong and/or a sin?

Kland,

No, I really cannot. I believe it would be a sin for me, yes. For someone else, I would not know. God is the Judge.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #134100
06/03/11 03:41 PM
06/03/11 03:41 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa

Kland,

No, I really cannot. I believe it would be a sin for me, yes. For someone else, I would not know. God is the Judge.

What is "it"? Is that, being drunk? What is "being drunk" to you? That is, how would you know that you yourself was drunk? Now, that might lead to an amusing answer so keep in mind the drunk in the street slurring his words as he states he is NOT drunk.

Just to be absolutely clear then, you are retracting your past remark about others drinking is ok, but being drunk is not ok. Right?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #134102
06/03/11 04:03 PM
06/03/11 04:03 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
kland,

To my view, drinking is not ok. Being drunk is not ok. But the Bible seemingly forbids neither--at least not to everyone. Mrs. White certainly forbids both. The standard has been raised.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Mountain Man] #134103
06/03/11 04:29 PM
06/03/11 04:29 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC, you are not being your usual self. You are avoiding questions and overlooking plain statements from the pen of inspiration. Ellen's comments are too clear to misunderstand. They cannot be misconstrued to mean Jesus permitted drinking alcohol and drunkenness in the past but has since then raised the standard to forbid it. I am very surprised at the way your are handling this topic and thread.


Mike,

I'm a strong supporter of both Ellen White and the Bible. Always have been, and am still now. The reason you may see me as "handling" this topic unusually is simply because this is an unusually difficult one.

The Bible is said to be like a sword. A sword has two opposing slopes which finally meet in a knife-edge point. That point is sharp. It is where apparent opposites meet.

This topic is not without its opposites, that is for sure. In my analysis, Ellen White was a bit imprecise in her choice of words. Her affinity to superlatives and to absolutes has created an extra "opposite" for us to try to work out. I confess that I have a difficult time reconciling her statement that "The Bible nowhere sanctions the use of intoxicating wine."

To me, the Bible does sanction its use. It is notable, however, that Mrs. White never references or uses in any way those portions of the Bible which do so. In any case, one of those is from God Himself, the other supposedly by a King Lemuel.

To better see the knife's edge here, let's put the statements side-by-side.

"The Bible nowhere sanctions the use of intoxicating wine." (EGW)

"And thou shalt bestow that money {tithe} for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household..." (Deuteronomy 14:26)

"Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts." (Proverbs 31:6)


Most people, to resolve these "apparent contradictions," try to look carefully at the words to see if they might be defined or used in a manner which would still be consistent. For instance, we might look at the term "intoxicating" or the word "sanction" to see if these might have a meaning which would be consistent with what the Bible says.

I take the Bible above Mrs. White, if necessary. So that is my starting point. Jesus used the same scriptures as are quoted here when He was on this earth, and we do not see Him correcting them, nor in any way implying that they might be inexact.

Mrs. White's words, however, seem too clear to avoid the obvious contradiction. There is one possibility with the word "sanction" that we might choose to accept. Some will accept it, and some may not. But here it is: "sanction" has, as one of its definitions, the meaning of "to encourage." I must agree that if the word were used in that sense, I do not see the Bible as encouraging the use of strong drink. It allows it, permits it for certain occasions or people, but does not encourage it.

This is the only way I can possibly resolve the apparent contradiction at this point. If it comes to outright contradiction, in any case, I take the Bible first.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #134107
06/03/11 08:23 PM
06/03/11 08:23 PM
K
kland  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Quote:
I confess that I have a difficult time reconciling her statement that "The Bible nowhere sanctions the use of intoxicating wine."

To me, the Bible does sanction its use.
I recall some people saying Jesus was a good man, but he wasn't God. How can a fraud be good?
Perhaps, as pointed out, your definition of "sanction" might be different?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #134123
06/04/11 12:36 AM
06/04/11 12:36 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Well, it would not just be my definition. It seems to me that if there were to be truly no contradiction here, it would have to have been that Mrs. White herself had intended that specific usage of the word.

Webster's 1828 Dictionary has this: "SANCTION, v.t. To ratify; to confirm; to give validity or authority to."

I don't know if that is very helpful here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #134131
06/04/11 03:09 AM
06/04/11 03:09 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
GC, thank you for taking the time to explain yourself. That's more like it, more like you. I'm surprised, though, that you are so quick to assume Ellen got it wrong. The "sanction" passage isn't, as you know, the only thing she wrote about it. Listen:

Quote:
The only way in which any can be secure against the power of intemperance, is to abstain wholly from wine, beer, and strong drinks.-- Christian Temperance and Bible Hygiene, page 37.

Therefore God explicitly forbids the use of wine and strong drink.--Signs of the Times, July 8, 1880.

God expressly forbade the use of wine that would have an influence to becloud the intellect. {Te 44.1}

The Lord has given special directions in His word in reference to the use of wine and strong drink. He has forbidden their use, and enforced His prohibitions with strong warnings and threatenings. But His forbidding the use of intoxicating beverages is not an exercise of arbitrary authority. He seeks to restrain men, in order that they may escape from the evil results of indulgence in wine and strong drink. Degradation, cruelty, wretchedness, and strife follow as the natural results of intemperance. God has pointed out the consequences of following this course of evil. This He has done that there may not be a perversion of His laws, and that men may be spared the widespread misery resulting from the course of evil men who, for the sake of gain, sell maddening intoxicants.--Drunkenness and Crime, pages 4-6.

With the awful results of indulgence in intoxicating drink before us, how is it that any man or woman who claims to believe in the word of God, can venture to touch, taste, or handle wine or strong drink? Such a practice is certainly out of harmony with their professed faith. {Te 42.3}

The liquor traffic is a terrible scourge to our land, and is sustained and legalized by those who profess to be Christians. In thus doing, the churches make themselves responsible for all the results of this death-dealing traffic. The liquor traffic has its root in hell itself, and it leads to perdition. These are solemn considerations.--Review and Herald, May 1, 1894.

Many, as they read this, will laugh at the warning of danger. They will say, "Surely the little wine or cider that I use cannot hurt me." [If] all would be vigilant and faithful in guarding the little openings made by the moderate use of the so-called harmless wine and cider, the highway to drunkenness would be closed up.--Review and Herald, March 25, 1884.

Her use of the phrases "expressly, explicitly forbade" are inspired and reflect her gift and calling as a prophet. To dismiss, discount, or discard what she wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit is to call into question her prophetic gift. It is tantamount to rejecting the wisdom of God. To build a case in favor of alcoholic beverages and drunkenness based on two passages is unwise and dangerous. The overwhelming weight of evidence and inspiration clearly portrays God as adamantly opposed to alcoholic beverages and drunkenness issuing stern denunciations and condemnation. "He has forbidden their use, and enforced His prohibitions with strong warnings and threatenings." You are treading unsafe water, brother. Please reconsider your position.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Mountain Man] #134136
06/04/11 03:46 AM
06/04/11 03:46 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Mike,

Those statements are not exactly in the same category. Each of those can be explained simply enough by recognizing that the standard has been raised. The standards may have been different in Bible times. Alternatively, these statements may refer to a particular context, such as the prohibitions for the priesthood. In the book of Exodus, God spoke of a future time when His people should be "a kingdom of priests." In Revelation, that is said to have been accomplished. I believe that refers to our day. As "priests," we are held to the high standard of spiritual leaders, not to the lower standard of the masses.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #134162
06/04/11 11:15 PM
06/04/11 11:15 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
GC, it is clear you have made up your mind and nothing I quote is going to persuade you otherwise. I have nothing further to say. Thank you for the dialog.

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