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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: JAK] #134486
06/14/11 11:46 AM
06/14/11 11:46 AM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
JAK, I don't see how I am attacking you. You repetitively say you see nothing wrong with drinking. So, by asking if you drink, or observing that you have some other motivation for claiming it's ok even though MM has shown how it isn't, why would that be an "attack" especially if you are claiming there is nothing wrong with it? It makes no sense.

How is supporting what you have said in any way slanderous or attacking? You have said yourself that there is nothing wrong with drinking. Just being "drunk", although you could not define it.

Why don't you just tell us what is your motivation for claiming the Bible doesn't speak against drinking? Why is that important to you?

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #134487
06/14/11 11:55 AM
06/14/11 11:55 AM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
What do you surmise about my motivations here, kland? I do not drink.
I didn't say you did. I only surmised you have some motivation. What, I do not know.
Quote:
The fact is, kland, I don't. I don't want the Bible to teach such. It doesn't, either. It clearly outlines the woes of drink. BUT, I must accept the Bible's clear teachings without allowing my own biases and/or prejudices to prevent me from understanding them. This means being honest with myself and with the Word of God. That honesty, kland, is what leads me to recognize that the Bible does indeed allow certain things which to me seem counter-intuitive.
Huh? Does it or doesn't it?

Perhaps other "certain things" are the motivation? I don't know.

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: kland] #134492
06/14/11 01:59 PM
06/14/11 01:59 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
kland,

It is said that Americans are given an incredible right by their United States government--the right to be wrong. Americans have religious freedom. They can worship on any day of the week they might wish, whether or not it is the "right" day. They have wording that speaks of certain "inalienable" rights, including rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

I sort of see God giving us these same rights in the Bible. While God may have ability to force us all to live correctly, He does not do so. While God may command certain things of us, He does not force and He does not micro-manage.

I have spoken with missionaries who have had several options before them of places to go; every one of them being a place where they would be able to do much for the Lord. They have prayed earnestly asking God to show them which place they should move to. Surprisingly (or perhaps unsurprisingly if you are well-acquainted with our God), God would not tell them which place to go. He told them it was their choice. God gave them liberty to choose. Anyone of them would be a great option, and God simply did not micro-manage, and make choices for them. God has promised to give us the "desires of your heart." How, then, can God require us, against our wishes, to live a certain, rigid way?

Naturally, God knows what is best for our happiness. He knows that money will not buy it. He knows multiple wives will not bring it. And He knows that alcohol will not give us happiness. He paints clear pictures of these things in His Word. But He does not there say "you must not...." There are certain things that God allows. This allowance has less to do with the rightness or wrongness of the thing, and more to do with God's desire that we should be able to seek happiness through our own choices.

Romans 14 is written along these same lines. It is a principle clearly given in 1 Corinthians 10:29. And there are other passages. Each individual has the right to choose. God wants our happiness and our liberty-- both. In order for God to provide us these essential liberties, He allows certain things which may not be for our best good. While God may allow them, He also seeks to educate us against them. BUT HE WILL NOT FORCE.

God has at times, in order to fulfill His great law of love, a law which requires freedom of choice, given to His people that which is not for their best good. The quail is one such example. King Saul. There are others. But these provisions on His part do not indicate that such things were harmless, good, or without sin. Certainly, they do not indicate that they were best.

Such is the case with alcohol--it was permitted, but never encouraged ("sanctioned").

Along with a recognition of what the Bible actually says on this subject, I guess my image and perspective of the nature of God Himself helps to shape my understanding of it. There is no sense, kland, in ascribing to me ill motivations. You err in doing so. Furthermore, Ellen White clearly states that one should not...well, how about getting it from her directly.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
There is no surer way of weakening our spirituality than by being envious, suspicious of one another, full of faultfinding and evil surmising. "This wisdom descendeth not from above, but is earthly, sensual, devilish. For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be entreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace." James 3:15-18. {CCh 44.5}

Harmony and union existing among men of varied dispositions is the strongest witness that can be borne that God has sent His Son into the world to save sinners. It is our privilege to bear this witness. But, in order to do this, we must place ourselves under Christ's command. Our characters must be molded in harmony with His character, our wills must be surrendered to His will. Then we shall work together without a thought of collision. {CCh 44.6}

Little differences dwelt upon lead to actions that destroy Christian fellowship. Let us not allow the enemy thus to gain the advantage over us. Let us keep drawing nearer to God and to one another. Then we shall be as trees of righteousness, planted by the Lord, and watered by the river of life. And how fruitful we shall be! Did not Christ say: "Herein is My Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit"? John 15:8. {CCh 45.1}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #134506
06/14/11 10:07 PM
06/14/11 10:07 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
MODERATOR HAT ON

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Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: JAK] #147462
11/25/12 01:25 AM
11/25/12 01:25 AM
D
D R  Offline
Charter Member
SDA
Active Member 2020

Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 719
East Coast Canada
time to do some music "editing" (He turned the water into GRAPEJUICE) smile

Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: D R] #147468
11/25/12 02:54 PM
11/25/12 02:54 PM
Daryl  Offline
OP
Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
Originally Posted By: BeachBubbaDan (BBD)
time to do some music "editing" (He turned the water into GRAPEJUICE) smile

That is exactly what He did.

He turned the water into unfermented wine, or what we would call today, grape juice.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Daryl] #147478
11/25/12 09:22 PM
11/25/12 09:22 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
I believe Christ turned the water into delicious unfermented grape juice.

But is there a time for alcohol?

Quote:
We were delayed one day longer than we designed. I had ague in my ear, and head was involved. I suffered much pain. Dared not be on the road. I consulted a dentist. He said the teeth were not the cause of this affliction. Then I took alcohol, sweat, and worked my best to subdue the pain, and the relief came. I am made aware that all this trouble was the result of a severe cold.... {MR1033 17.1}


A number of Adventists I have known have used this "prescription" by Ellen White as they go to bed in the evening when they suffer from a severe cold, reporting they were fully healed and able to go to work the following morning.

Last edited by Johann; 11/25/12 09:25 PM.

"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Johann] #147487
11/26/12 03:38 AM
11/26/12 03:38 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2021

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Johann,

In your quote, it does not say how she used the alcohol. It may have been as a mouth rinse (gargle), or it may have been topical. I'm not saying it's impossible that she drank it, only pointing out that there are other ways to interpret.

I'm in agreement that at times alcohol can be used judiciously. The key thought, from the Bible, is "moderation." And "moderation" means different levels for different things. For example, "solanine" is a poison found in tomatoes, potatoes, etc. It is much higher in poison nightshade. One may be able to eat a potato without harm, but a few nightshade berries could cause death. The actual amount would be very small, but it might not take much. "Moderation" would mean different things with respect to honey, yeast, salt, vinegar, etc. Moderation might even be different from one person to the next. Balance is important, and one cannot be moderate and be an extremist at the same time.

I don't drink. I never will. I will never teach people to drink. But I cannot, biblically, say one should never drink.

I have a friend in Laos right now who is dying. Liver cancer. They say it's one of the most painful kinds of cancer. He is not a drinker. He's well-respected. But I would not criticize him right now if he were to drink. He likely has but days left to live. He is already quite weak. And he is in pain.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts. Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more. (Proverbs 31:6-7)


At this stage of his life, that text is for him. In his case, instead of alcohol, he may be using the "vegetarian" kind--morphine.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Green Cochoa] #147488
11/26/12 04:59 AM
11/26/12 04:59 AM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
A matter of interpretation, yes. To most people, I presume, you seem very sensible. To others, what you say, may seem liberal.

Could this not apply also in many other cases, and even more so where there is no "thus saith the Lord"?

This reminds of a case at the state hospital where a 103 year old lady asked my wife to give her some coffee with sugar. Then she asked my wife if it was really unhealthy to use some sugar in the coffee. Should she have started giving her a lecture on both being unhealthy since she had but a short time to live?

Government regulations forbids the nurses to preach to the patients.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Christian Living & Alcohol [Re: Johann] #147493
11/26/12 02:09 PM
11/26/12 02:09 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Johann, do you feel there is a point where someone is too old to hear the gospel?

Also, if you think preaching refers to the health message, do you think nurses are preaching when they give medicine to the patients?
That is, government sanctioned preaching?

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