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#134683 - 06/24/11 02:26 PM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: NJK Project]
kland Offline
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Elle,

You may want to do a search for "All" and see if "all" always means all.

It's making sense now. When we were discussing whether holy angels were having sex with man, I was asking you who was in the wrong. You were objecting why that needed to be determined. Now it makes sense. If we are all puppets in some sort of charade/drama for who knows whom, then no one is doing wrong. God is playing god and zapping those who he wishes for amusement. Kind of reminds me of a twisted Star Trek show I saw long ago.

But still, I find it hard to understand things such as, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Which doesn't quite sound like God caused Noah or manipulated his strings to find grace, but that through choices Noah made, he found grace.

What's the purpose of the Bible? To show us that we need not worry, that I'm ok, you're ok, we all are going to be saved so eat, drink, and be merry? I always thought it was to warn us to make the right choice of who we are going to serve.


I agree with you in theory that if someone and the Bible disagrees, we should discard her for the Bible. However, I also believe Ellen White to be inspired from God. So, if I should see a disagreement, I conclude there is a problem with me in my understanding rather than with her.
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#134690 - 06/24/11 03:58 PM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: kland]
NJK Project Offline
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I agree with your take away here kland. It’s the (Biblically) logical implication.

Originally Posted By: kland
Kind of reminds me of a twisted Star Trek show I saw long ago.


Not endorsing or recommending Hollywood in anyway but this view by Elle reminded me of the recent para-religious plotted 2011 movie The Adjustment Bureau which I was shocked to see got it Biblically right, even if through a circuitous/twisted way. To the point that I suspect the writer/director is a Christian and had an “para-evangelistic” agenda. (If one does not have any “spoiler” cares, I’ll mention that “Biblical” denouement/ending.)
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#134720 - 06/25/11 02:58 PM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: kland]
Elle Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Elle,

You may want to do a search for "All" and see if "all" always means all.

It's making sense now. When we were discussing whether holy angels were having sex with man, I was asking you who was in the wrong. You were objecting why that needed to be determined. Now it makes sense. If we are all puppets in some sort of charade/drama for who knows whom, then no one is doing wrong. God is playing god and zapping those who he wishes for amusement. Kind of reminds me of a twisted Star Trek show I saw long ago.

But still, I find it hard to understand things such as, Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord. Which doesn't quite sound like God caused Noah or manipulated his strings to find grace, but that through choices Noah made, he found grace.

What's the purpose of the Bible? To show us that we need not worry, that I'm ok, you're ok, we all are going to be saved so eat, drink, and be merry? I always thought it was to warn us to make the right choice of who we are going to serve.


I agree with you in theory that if someone and the Bible disagrees, we should discard her for the Bible. However, I also believe Ellen White to be inspired from God. So, if I should see a disagreement, I conclude there is a problem with me in my understanding rather than with her.

Kland, if you want to discuss take time to read what the person is saying. You're twisting things around. Plus you are bringing another discussion here that you are twisting also; so to cast shade on my character. If you want to discuss, please stick to the discussion and not the individual .

I am reporting this post.
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#134724 - 06/25/11 04:02 PM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: Elle]
NJK Project Offline
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Apparently I should know/do better than to seemingly wholly agree with someone else’s summary observations without verifying things in detail for myself first. Sorry for any implied misunderstanding here Elle. I was pointedly referring to what I considered to be independently substantive “takeaways” in kland’s post in regards to issues for this discussion.
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#134736 - 06/25/11 07:59 PM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: NJK Project]
Elle Offline
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Sorry, I missed this post NJK. This is long and I don't have much time more to edit it. Sorry for the pour quality.
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Here are the answers to your comments, Elle:

Elle: “Rom 8:19-21 – Talking about MAN, not Animals”
NJK: Rom 8-19-21 is actually/exegetcally speaking of the benefits that righteous men and women will come to have on all of God’s creation, indeed to reverse the curse that their sinning had brought upon it. This “Creation” is pitted against the “sons /children of God”. That is why Paul has to twice qualifyingly say after his ‘groaning statement’ in vs. 22, that ‘this also applies to humans, and that we, even believers, are also awaiting for this result from our own completed redemption’ (vs. 23). And so is the hope that, due to this permitted restoration of righteousness, everything wil again be made aright, including in nature/creation.


You are not reading the text as it is simply written. To come to what you are saying, you have to add things to the text which is not there to say what you want it to say. V.21 says “Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God It’s not talking about fido here and it’s not saying that only those that are saved either. Plus v. 23 says not only they (refering to the the creature mention in v20 and 21), but ourselves also,(the believers), which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves (the believers) groan withing ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to with, the redemption of our body.

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Elle: “God Creating Evil or Adversity”
NJK: I had updated my post to also include “calamity” as the definition of the Hebrew ra’. So there is a most accurate distinction between “calamity” and “adversary”.

Also Hebrew was not a perfect and “wordy” language and that is why the LXX does many times provide more accurate words for expression that were understood to be distinct in the Hebrew, however there was not a proper word to express it in that language. (That is why I also believed that God allowed Greek to become the major language of the World, even in Roman times, for the purpose of the accurate expression of the Gospel message.)

And God did freely allow for the development of an “adversary”, though without forcing anything.


Hmmm… preferring Greek over Hebrew. Not a good sign. So we at least agree here on the word adversary despite you didn’t answer my question concerning if God created “adversity”, then did He create Satan which means “adversary”?

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Elle: “Forcing or Not – Is not the Issue”
NJK: Similarly, God’s placing of a testing tree in Eden is complete distinct from a claim that He forced Adam and Eve to eat from it. They freely chose to do that and therein is the fairness in all of this and the concept of freewill in this GC. Indeed without this tree for them to tangibly concretize a disobedience to God if so chose, there actually is no freewill. They could not chose something that was not there to choose.

And I do see that our difference here is on this issue of forcing Adam and Eve to choose evil vs. them freely choosing to do so.


Force: We’ve been over this many times.

And to repeat, the GC has nothing to do with the freewill, It has all to do with Ownership, Because God has created us and is the mover of all things, He is responsible for His creation. A goo God will correct/discipline his wayward children. He does not “destroy” them like the world destroys each other. God Destruction (Greek =apollumi or Hebrew = ‘abad – also means “lost” and Jesus said the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son are found) is the way Christ destroys the old man of sin, to recreate a new one. "Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? ” Romans 9:21

Like Jesus corrected His disciples emphasis on sin when they questioned who had sinned? The blind man or his parents? “Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him” John 9:3. To me, Jesus is stating the purpose of real emphasis we should have on sin and what is the GC truly revolves around.”

To meet with your weak logic that somehow a tree was necessary -- Did Lucifer had a tree to choose from when he fell? There was none for it was not necessary and the fall of Lucifer is well described in Ez 28:17 which is what Rom 9:20 said “…made subject to vanity, UNWILLINGLY” I have explained Lucifer’s fall phenomenon many times in this thread.


Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Elle: “Did God Miss the Mark ?”
NJK: Joseph’s story. -God allowed what happened to Joseph to take place, i.e., played along with the free choice developments of his brothers, and thus “meant it for good” as one of the thousands of ways he could have succeed in just bringing Joseph to Egypt. And given the free evil disposition of his brothers, the Patriarchs of His Israel, this way was indeed the best one under those circumstances as God could also use it to most strikingly humble his brothers and serve as an object lesson for the nation of Israel.

So God could have easily brought Joseph to Egypt by giving him his famine-overcoming dreams while in Canaan and instructing him to travel to Egypt and relate them to Pharaoh as the solution, however God also had to deal with this evil and jealousy with these brothers, and perhaps also tinge of pride in Joseph.


This is all added supposition of yours – adding to the Bible and blinding yourself to the texts where God makes it plain that He CREATED EVIL and done all these evils (or adversary if you want to word it as so). So what happened to Joseph was part of God’s plan and God did not “react” to the situation like you are implying. God is Sovereign and in charge and in control of the main events. So God brought these evils in Joseph’s life so that the works of God should be made manifest in him” The focuss is not SIN that man has commited --- or the EVIL that is upon them…. but that we may behold the Works of God, so that our trust in HIM will be restore; thus the trust in ourself destroyed.

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Elle: “Did God Miss the Mark ?”
NJK: Perhaps I finally see your answer to your question here as you are directly answering it, i.e., head on. My question now is: Do you believe in some form of post-death second chance or purgatory. I.e. that between the death of a person and God’s final appearance, they will be given a chance to change. Thus, e.g., the Antediluvians; the people in Sodom and Gomorrah; the wicked people living in some nearby cities of Canaan that God ordered to be all killed, etc. all will have a post-death chance to be saved?? Of course then, being resurrected, basing this on “sight” and not “faith” as God’s gracious redemption actually necessitates.


Like I said, if it’s not in the TYPE there’s no truth. In the TYPE there is a second chance depicted

Second Opportunity/Chance in the LAW of Moses (TYPE)

Num 9:5-11 "9:5 And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai: according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel.

9:6 And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day:

9:7 And those men said unto him, We are defiled by the dead body of a man: wherefore are we kept back, that we may not offer an offering of the LORD in his appointed season among the children of Israel?

9:8 And Moses said unto them, Stand still, and I will hear what the LORD will command concerning you.

9:9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

9:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD,.

9:11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs."


Here in the TYPE we see that God makes provision for a "second chance". I put "second chance" in a quote for it is not really a second chance but rather it was God's plan from the beginning. But most of Christianity opposes the concept of a "second chance", however, it is written in the Type of such. But since it is rare to find anyone studying the laws of Moses because everyone believes it is nailed to the cross and don't have not much relevance to us today, this text is unknown. Let's label this as a second opportunity for justification. The Passover represents justification which we are justified by the blood/merits of Christ. The blood needed to be smear on the top(head) and the two lintel(arms & hands) of the door. Then the Passover meat and the unleavened bread to be eaten.

This law brings two reasons why a person could not keep or have missed the first opportunity for justification.

(i) Those that were defiled” by touching the dead body of a man: ” In application, our mortal bodies is a "body of death"” (Rom 7:24). Believers are those who “have passed from death to life” ” (1Jn 3:14) and “are clean through the word” ”(John 15:3). The unbelievers are still unclean=defiled by reason of touching their own dead body.

(ii) Those who were in a journey afar off ” (from God): Like the prodigal son in Luke 15, he too will have a second opportunity later to keep the Passover.

This provision made by God in the Law are for the majority of mankind, who are yet dead in their sins and their heart are far from God.


Originally Posted By: NJK
You mention the Jubilee, which I believe will be forced to fully occur because God’s Church has failed in doing the work which would have skipped a full implementation of this type, do you believe that people will be resurrected to live a proper life during this pre-advent (cf. EW 286.1) Jubilee period.

According to the Feasts depicted, only the firstfruit(barley) is harvested first and consumed(their body changed into immortality – the hope of glory). Those are they that will be part of the first resurrection. The other two harvests(Wheat=Church and grapes=Wicked) will have to wait for after the 2nd ressurection.

This is what I currently understand of the Jubilee. The soon coming 7th millennium is on the grand scale of the Jubilee. As the 7th year, the land was to be given a rest; so this is applied in the scale of the world as the 7th millennium. During the 7th year(or Millenium on the grander scale) all the slaves were released from their bondage for that sabbatical year. During the 7th Millenium, the firstfruit only lives, the others, their bondage to vanity is temporarily lifted as they are given a millennium rest before they get resurrected. But the real Jubilee in the TYPE happens on the fall of the 49th year, so on the world scale it might be the 49th Millenium. So the way I see it, the restitution sentences given to the guilty at the Great White throne, probably will have 42 Thousand years sold to slavery to pay their debt. Depending on the amount of restitution given by God’s verdict, some will pay it off before the 50th Jubillee is reached, and others will not. However, according to the Law of Jubillee, regardless if it is paid or not, their debt will be fully cancelled once the Jubilee rolls over and they will be restore back to their heritage.

Originally Posted By: NJK
My view is that this will only apply to those who are alive then, and all still in faith. The Bible teaches that everyone seals their fate upon their death.
Yes, it is so. The faith of the Believers or Unbelievers whether they be part of the first resurrection or not is determined upon their death. However, the first resurrection does not equate salvation. There’s no were in scriptures or the Type that requires that man has to be redeemed before the first resurrection.

We are justified and glory(build Chraracter of Christ) either by 1. Faith or by 2. Tribulations(Rom 5:2,3) both through Jesus Christ. Those by faith will benefit of the first ressurection, the others by much tribulations after the 2nd resurrection by which they will learn righteousness later (Is 26:9; Acts 14:22).

Originally Posted By: NJK
In regards to your claim of Rom 11;26, Paul qualifies “Israel” as only those who come to accept Jesus Christ. (E.g. Rom 9:6-8ff; cf. Gal 3:29 & Rom 2:28, 29) .


It is true that there is that dimension where the children of the flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God. All must be born again and to come to this birth, God first needs to destroy all that we put our faith in(flesh or other things aside from the only true God). Once we are dead, then God can implant the seed(Jesus) in our heart and recreate us new.

Regardless of that constant problem of the Jews relying that their salvation was secure because of heritage, Paul was quoting Is 45:17, 25 and other scriptures in OT. Which is very specific in referring to Israel which God had prophecied that He was going to destroy and disperse them in the whole world in the chapters before. He made a vow in Is 45 that “…shall all the seed of Israel be justified and shall [u]glory” By using the work “glory” ” – here it is very definite we are not talking of Christ “give the option of life by dying for all but you need to choose”. It is clear that God’s vow is specifically saying that ALL ISRAEL SHALL GLORY” – meaning will build Christlike character.

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Elle: “God’s Vow”
NJK: God’s vow in Isa 45:23-25 to have all bow before Him in acknowledgement does not mean that they confessing ones, indeed merely out of defeat, will be saved. Satan and evil angels will also bow, however they will not be saved. For those who will bow then, indeed while standing outside of God’s New Jerusalem, it will long have been too late. GC 668.2-671.2ff. Indeed just after that, they seek to continue their work of rebellion as stated in the Bible (Rev 20:7-11). You cannot build a teaching on one verse alone, i.e., you claim for Isa 45:25. (Perhaps you don’t accept the SOP direct revelation of those events, however that does not change those Biblical realities which the SOP serves to guide one to.) .

Despite you would like everyone to believe, I have not build a teaching on one verse. I have met all your opinions and scriptures you have brought with sound Biblical support plus build on the revelation from the TYPE where the foundation of the plan of salvation is revealed.

Little is said of the rebellion of Rev 20:7-11 and what takes place afterward. All we know sometime afterward that God sat on His Great White throne and judge those part of the 2nd resurrection. We know from scriptures that all sins will be judge, therefore the sins of these people will be judged according to God’s righteous judgment described in the Law of Moses to establish divine order. Some will have a few or many lashing(luk 12:47,48), and others will be thrown in the lake of fire (= Law =sentenced according to the Law of Moses with a restitution to pay up). God will bring divine order through Righteous Judgment. Divine Judgment is not like the world which is a punitive system which is not aim to restore the criminal. Divine Judgment has for objective to restore the criminal and to bring restitution to the victim. That’s when Justice is served and a court case is closed.

So in 1Co 3:15 is another place where it talks about the Great White throne judgment and it is said “If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.” God’s law that proceed from His mouth is like a fire. Daniel saw the same scene where the fire came from God’s throne in Dn 7:9 and then it was described as a river in the next v.10. John saw the same scene(or the judgment process) but saw the end of it by which that fire became a lake. In all cases the point is the fire came from God’s throne where judgment proceeds. God’s judgment will be made according to His own Law. The Bible says it is the Law that make us know sin. And that’s how God will make them know their sin after they stand before God throne. There is no detail in the Bible when these people will bow down before God and confess. All we can derive that it is sometime after the Great White throne. It could be at the 50th Jubilee – we do not know, But one thing we know, God will keep His Vow pronounce in Is 45 and will fulfill all feasts that illustrate the plan of salvation in the TYPE.

Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Elle: “God’s Saves ALL”

NJK: God’s promise of worldwide (= indeed “all”) blessing through Abraham is not synonymous with those blessed people being Spiritually saved. It just means that God’s Triumphant Israel will have a most positive and beneficial impact on the entire world, yet people will still, as in Eden, be free to choose whether to live by God’s ways or not. However in the light of this realized blessing, they will seal their fate as they will then be acting in the light of great and clear knowledge of God and His righteous, and tangibly beneficial ways.
Not according to the TYPE.
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#134737 - 06/25/11 08:01 PM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: NJK Project]
Elle Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Apparently I should know/do better than to seemingly wholly agree with someone else’s summary observations without verifying things in detail for myself first. Sorry for any implied misunderstanding here Elle. I was pointedly referring to what I considered to be independently substantive “takeaways” in kland’s post in regards to issues for this discussion.
I appreciate the appology NJK. Bless you.
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#134758 - 06/26/11 02:13 AM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: Elle]
NJK Project Offline
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Originally Posted By: Elle
You are not reading the text as it is simply written. To come to what you are saying, you have to add things to the text which is not there to say what you want it to say. V.21 says “Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God It’s not talking about fido here and it’s not saying that only those that are saved either. Plus v. 23 says not only they (refering to the the creature mention in v20 and 21), but ourselves also,(the believers), which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves (the believers) groan withing ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to with, the redemption of our body.


-Obviously Elle, you are preferring the reading of “the creature” vs. the also articular “(the) creation” [of God] (cf. Heb 9:11; Rev 3:14). I don’t see it as valid. I still see this passage as saying that all of God’s creation has been made to suffer the consequences of sin because of the fall of man and that is why they are eagerly awaiting for man to be restored.

In Rom 8:23 I exegetically see Paul as saying that it is not only creation that is affected, but even those who are currently first fruit of the redeemed. I.e., they too have to wait for others to complete this restoration before they could enjoy it. So I still see my view of how this will benefit animals who are part of this “creation” of God to be valid.

Originally Posted By: Elle
Hmmm… preferring Greek over Hebrew. Not a good sign. So we at least agree here on the word adversary despite you didn’t answer my question concerning if God created “adversity”, then did He create Satan which means “adversary”?


My referring to the LXX here is, as stated with cause. And that is, as easily seen in the English rendering of the Hebrew, that the word ra’ does not always have the same connotations throughout the OT. So the LXX differentiating here is valid. It indeed basically meant adversity/calamity and thus was a perfect word for the common work of the Devil which is “evil”. So I don’t see that it has that meaning in its every instance in the OT, indeed as with many other Hebrew words. So the LXX, which was the Bible of the NT Christians, is quite valuable in this regard.

Originally Posted By: Elle
Force: We’ve been over this many times.

And to repeat, the GC has nothing to do with the freewill, It has all to do with Ownership, Because God has created us and is the mover of all things, He is responsible for His creation. A goo God will correct/discipline his wayward children. He does not “destroy” them like the world destroys each other. God Destruction (Greek =apollumi or Hebrew = ‘abad – also means “lost” and Jesus said the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son are found) is the way Christ destroys the old man of sin, to recreate a new one.


-To me, what you are describing as “moving” is still “force.”

-The distinct use of “utterly destroyed” (#1842) in Acts 3:23 as a consequence of rejecting the Messiah is the same as the OT’s “cut off” and does not, indeed is not, to involve any reconciliation/return.

-The “redemptive” examples you cite for the Lost Coin/Sheep and Prodigal sons, all have fulfillment in what Jesus came to establish, namely the “finding” of both “lost” Israelites and a people of God from the Gentiles. Wholesalely applying this everyone who has ever been born is not Biblical to me. One has to freely chose this available salvation. E.g., in the human example, the prodigal son had to decide to return to his father’s house. In the same way, pagans have to decide to return to the ways they actually know are normal/natural in regards to the last six commandments. And like the father in the parable, God then will meet them half way then to lead them to the paths for full restoration. However, as I Biblically see it, it is all a free choice, except, as with Paul in limited “first fruit” circumstances. However even then the free choice to obey or not is still present.

Originally Posted By: Elle
"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? ” Romans 9:21


My view reading Rom 9:14-29 is that God does this by indeed optionally exercising His mercy on whoever He choses to. With some people He chooses not to have mercy and thus, in this wrath, uses them and their already sinful ways as ‘vessels of destruction’. On others, who he could use as vessels, He allows Himself to have mercy on them. Still I see that this is all done out of weighed justice. I.e., some people have more redeemable qualities then others. Some sin according to sincere ignorance (e.g., Paul the persecutor). Others do so out of no sincere cause, but outright malevolence (e.g., Pharaoh oppressing Israel for no realistic reason).

Originally Posted By: Elle
Like Jesus corrected His disciples emphasis on sin when they questioned who had sinned? The blind man or his parents? “Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him” John 9:3. To me, Jesus is stating the purpose of real emphasis we should have on sin and what is the GC truly revolves around.”


Here, (a) the disciples needed to understand that this sickness was not incurred as a judgement of God; (b) as I am reading it, Jesus was saying that God, as seen in the story of Job, would only have inflicted/permitted this sickness only in the case the the glory of God would be made manifest in him.

Also in passages like Luke 13:16 & John 10:10 Jesus clearly says that it is Satan who is responsible for (generally) inflicting diseases (i.e., the ones that are not for a glorious end). So that man’s blindness from birth may indeed have been deliberately set up by God for Jesus and it indeed caused a major problems to the Pharisee. This is all similar to the purposeful sickness and death upon Lazarus also done in order to greatly undermine the position of the Jewish leaders. So Jesus may have been pointedly indicated that this man had been made blind from birth for that purpose and that He was indeed to heal him.

Originally Posted By: Elle
To meet with your weak logic that somehow a tree was necessary -- Did Lucifer had a tree to choose from when he fell? There was none for it was not necessary and the fall of Lucifer is well described in Ez 28:17 which is what Rom 9:20 said “…made subject to vanity, UNWILLINGLY” I have explained Lucifer’s fall phenomenon many times in this thread.


The fact that God placed a tree in the Garden was literally as a most prominent choice for man to deal with right from the start. This was done in every other world and they have not sinned. (But you probably don’t believe that SOP fuller revelation which is actually echoed in the Bible e.g., “worlds”, sons of God, etc.)

With “Lucifer”, God probably wanted to avoid this issue of sin at all costs, but Lucifer “discovered” it on his own. And since then, with the raging tiger out of the bag’ God no longer sought to hide it. (This “hiding” by God was a guileful part of Lucifer’s claim to Eve, especially now since God was no longer doing so.) So in order not to keep hidden any existing freedom that man has, God now provide this tangible option of a (voting) tree.

Also God does not suggest sins to his creatures. So Lucifer indeed had to “discover” sin on his own. Similarly God does not suggest the further sinning extremes that man has made sin the fall.

Quote:
Elle: “Did God Miss the Mark ?”
NJK: Joseph’s story. -God allowed what happened to Joseph to take place, i.e., played along with the free choice developments of his brothers, and thus “meant it for good” as one of the thousands of ways he could have succeed in just bringing Joseph to Egypt. And given the free evil disposition of his brothers, the Patriarchs of His Israel, this way was indeed the best one under those circumstances as God could also use it to most strikingly humble his brothers and serve as an object lesson for the nation of Israel.

NJK: So God could have easily brought Joseph to Egypt by giving him his famine-overcoming dreams while in Canaan and instructing him to travel to Egypt and relate them to Pharaoh as the solution, however God also had to deal with this evil and jealousy with these brothers, and perhaps also tinge of pride in Joseph.

Elle: This is all added supposition of yours – adding to the Bible and blinding yourself to the texts where God makes it plain that He CREATED EVIL and done all these evils (or adversary if you want to word it as so). So what happened to Joseph was part of God’s plan and God did not “react” to the situation like you are implying. God is Sovereign and in charge and in control of the main events. So God brought these evils in Joseph’s life so that the works of God should be made manifest in him” The focuss is not SIN that man has commited --- or the EVIL that is upon them…. but that we may behold the Works of God, so that our trust in HIM will be restore; thus the trust in yourself destroyed.


As again stated above, I exegetically don’t at all see your “created evil” reading and understanding, so why would/should I interpret things in that way?? This view of Joseph is according to my understanding that God does not do things for spurious or even inexistent reasons, as I see your view believes as a foundation, but because of actually present circumstances. So this explanation of mine reflects my theology here.

In your view God acts to bring about “evil/adversity” for no tangible reason or cause, indeed whimsically (i.e., however He feels that day). I rather see the Biblical view that God has to so act out of just reasons to deal with existent and commit sin. Thus never without just cause. Frankly your view of God is dictatorial and tyrannical, moreover an insane dictator and tyrannical, with, even more dangerously, absolute power. No one in their right minds wants to serve, be under, or “love” such a person, even in our sinful world.

Originally Posted By: Elle
Like I said, if it’s not in the TYPE there’s no truth. In the TYPE there is a second chance depicted

Second Opportunity/Chance in the LAW of Moses (TYPE)

Num 9:5-11 "9:5 And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai: according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel.

9:6 And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day:

9:7 And those men said unto him, We are defiled by the dead body of a man: wherefore are we kept back, that we may not offer an offering of the LORD in his appointed season among the children of Israel?

9:8 And Moses said unto them, Stand still, and I will hear what the LORD will command concerning you.

9:9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

9:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD,.

9:11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs."


Here in the TYPE we see that God makes provision for a "second chance". I put "second chance" in a quote for it is not really a second chance but rather it was God's plan from the beginning. But most of Christianity opposes the concept of a "second chance", however, it is written in the Type of such. But since it is rare to find anyone studying the laws of Moses because everyone believes it is nailed to the cross and don't have not much relevance to us today, this text is unknown. Let's label this as a second opportunity for justification. The Passover represents justification which we are justified by the blood/merits of Christ. The blood needed to be smear on the top(head) and the two lintel(arms & hands) of the door. Then the Passover meat and the unleavened bread to be eaten.

This law brings two reasons why a person could not keep or have missed the first opportunity for justification.

(i) Those that were defiled” by touching the dead body of a man: ” In application, our mortal bodies is a "body of death"” (Rom 7:24). Believers are those who “have passed from death to life” ” (1Jn 3:14) and “are clean through the word” ”(John 15:3). The unbelievers are still unclean=defiled by reason of touching their own dead body.

(ii) Those who were in a journey afar off ” (from God): Like the prodigal son in Luke 15, he too will have a second opportunity later to keep the Passover.

This provision made by God in the Law are for the majority of mankind, who are yet dead in their sins and their heart are far from God.


If your are going to honestly be faithful to your “types” view here, then you should readily see and understand that the Passover is not the final step in salvation, nor a type of the Final Judgement/Fate of man. That is found in the Fall feast of the Day of Atonement and there are no second chances there. All those who kept/celebrated Passover had to successfully go through that Day of Judgement. Making a ‘final’ Passover association here is similar to the truncated Evangelical Gospel where there is no, especially pre-advent, judgement. In fact there also is an unbiblical post “rapture” second chance.

I also see that the Bible teaches that someone who willfully rejects the sacrifice of Christ cannot be saved through a second chance. The reasons cited by God do not involve purposeful actions. Dead bodies had to be immediately dealt with, and a person on a journey may not be able to travel fast enough to make it back in time. In our world we have many, even most situations where people have rejected various manifestations of saving knowledge and light. And so they will be condemned according to that obtainable “salvation.”

Quote:
NJK: You mention the Jubilee, which I believe will be forced to fully occur because God’s Church has failed in doing the work which would have skipped a full implementation of this type, do you believe that people will be resurrected to live a proper life during this pre-advent (cf. EW 286.1) Jubilee period.

Elle: According to the Feasts depicted, only the firstfruit(barley) is harvested first and consumed(their body changed into immortality – the hope of glory). Those are they that will be part of the first resurrection. The other two harvests(Wheat=Church and grapes=Wicked) will have to wait for after the 2nd ressurection.

Elle: This is what I currently understand of the Jubilee. The soon coming 7th millennium is on the grand scale of the Jubilee. As the 7th year, the land was to be given a rest; so this is applied in the scale of the world as the 7th millennium. During the 7th year(or Millenium on the grander scale) all the slaves were released from their bondage for that sabbatical year. During the 7th Millenium, the firstfruit only lives, the others, their bondage to vanity is temporarily lifted as they are given a millennium rest before they get resurrected. But the real Jubilee in the TYPE happens on the fall of the 49th year, so on the world scale it might be the 49th Millenium. So the way I see it, the restitution sentences given to the guilty at the Great White throne, probably will have 42 Thousand years sold to slavery to pay their debt. Depending on the amount of restitution given by God’s verdict, some will pay it off before the 50th Jubillee is reached, and others will not. However, according to the Law of Jubillee, regardless if it is paid or not, their debt will be fully cancelled once the Jubilee rolls over and they will be restore back to their heritage.


I see that the Jubilees only tnagibly applies to those who willfully observe it, as with other feasts of God. Those who freely chose not to will suffer the consequence/punishment (e.g, Zech 14:12-19). Indeed as seen in Israel’s history, God did not force them to observe His Feasts, or keep His Laws and Statutes. So I don’t see him doing this in the “anti-typical” era.

Quote:
NJK: My view is that this will only apply to those who are alive then, and all still in faith. The Bible teaches that everyone seals their fate upon their death.

Elle: Yes, it is so. The faith of the Believers or Unbelievers whether they be part of the first resurrection or not is determined upon their death. However, the first resurrection does not equate salvation. There’s no were in scriptures or the Type that requires that man has to be redeemed before the first resurrection.


I readily see Heb 3:7-4:11 to be “typologically” speaking against this view that there is a second chance after the first one has been squandered. That is for the ones who had had that chance already. Also the reason for this failure and rejection is unbelief and disobedience. So a freedom of the will is also involved here.

Originally Posted By: Elle
We are justified and glory(build Chraracter of Christ) either by 1. Faith or by 2. Tribulations(Rom 5:2,3) both through Jesus Christ. Those by faith will benefit of the first ressurection, the others by much tribulations after the 2nd resurrection by which they will learn righteousness later (Is 26:9; Acts 14:22).


I rather see that Rom 5:1-3 is saying that once we have obtained justification by faith, we then can obtain a perseverance for this faith through permitted tribulations. Clearly your understanding has people being justified by tribulation and not faith in Jesus, and that is not Biblical. Further it is implying a justification by force: I.e., ‘accept Jesus or continue to suffer these tribulations’. While the Biblical development is ‘one is willing to suffer these tribulations because they have already freely chosen to have faith in Jesus.’ That is what is stated in Acts 14:22. I.e., tribulation does not come before genuine faith. And it is also only saying that the path to the Kingdom of God is filled with tribulation that the righteous must go through.

Isa 26:9 - In wider context, e.g., vs. 10, I don’t see this passage as meaning that the inhabitants of the world cannot rebel against this learned righteousness. That is indeed why they have to be still severly dealt with and destroyed (vss. 11-14; 18-21). The SOP rightly applies this passage to the utter end, as indeed, even after the righteousness of God has filled the earth, the wicked will still prefer to do evil (vss. 18-21).

Quote:
NJK: In regards to your claim of Rom 11;26, Paul qualifies “Israel” as only those who come to accept Jesus Christ. (E.g. Rom 9:6-8ff; cf. Gal 3:29 & Rom 2:28, 29) .

Elle: It is true that there is that dimension where the children of the flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God. All must be born again and to come to this birth, God first needs to destroy all that we put our faith in(flesh or other things aside from the only true God). Once we are dead, then God can implant the seed(Jesus) in our heart and recreate us new.


This is where I see the death knell of your view: What is God waiting for then??? He is not powerful enough to do this faster??? Indeed why 6000 years of billions of sinners. Why didn’t He just do this with Adam and Eve when they first fell??

Originally Posted By: Elle
Regardless of that constant problem of the Jews relying that their salvation was secure because of heritage, Paul was quoting Is 45:17, 25 and other scriptures in OT. Which is very specific in referring to Israel which God had prophecied that He was going to destroy and disperse them in the whole world in the chapters before. He made a vow in Is 45 that “…shall all the seed of Israel be justified and shall [u]glory” By using the work “glory” ” – here it is very definite we are not talking of Christ “give the option of life by dying for all but you need to choose”. It is clear that God’s vow is specifically saying that ALL ISRAEL SHALL GLORY” – meaning will build Christlike character.


You are simply reechoing that spurious belief by the Jews that “Israel” refers to all of the descendants of Abraham. Paul’s clear point is that it only applied to those who like Jacob, their name sake was victorious with God. E.g., Esau, Jacob brother, though a descendant of Abraham, was not considered as being “Israel”. Unlike his brother, he had chosen not to strive with God to obtain mercy and the promised blessing.

Originally Posted By: Elle
Despite you would like everyone to believe, I have not build a teaching on one verse. I have met all your opinions and scriptures you have brought with sound Biblical support plus build on the revelation from the TYPE where the foundation of the plan of salvation is revealed.


I had meant, in pointed context, that your claim for Israel in the Isa 45 texts you cite, is to the exclusion of what the rest of the Bible says this Israel really is. Hence the lone text statement, which was not meant generally.

Nonetheless, I really do not see that you have presented an exegetically sound/valid text for your claim. And to be exegetically sound, any passage is not to be interpreted in isolation of other related texts.

Originally Posted By: Elle
Little is said of the rebellion of Rev 20:7-11 and what takes place afterward. All we know sometime afterward that God sat on His Great White throne and judge those part of the 2nd resurrection. We know from scriptures that all sins will be judge, therefore the sins of these people will be judged according to God’s righteous judgment described in the Law of Moses to establish divine order. Some will have a few or many lashing(luk 12:47,48), and others will be thrown in the lake of fire (= Law =sentenced according to the Law of Moses with a restitution to pay up). God will bring divine order through Righteous Judgment. Divine Judgment is not like the world which is a punitive system which is not aim to restore the criminal. Divine Judgment has for objective to restore the criminal and to bring restitution to the victim. That’s when Justice is served and a court case is closed.


I clearly see that what is said in Rev 20:7-10 & 11-15 is clear enough as to what happens to the wicked. No second chance is mentioned or indicated there. Instead arresting punishment and death-a resurrection-condemnatory judgement and another similar and Final Lake of Fire destruction. Luke 12:47, 48 only speaks to the varying lengths of punishment that will be imposed on these wicked people, as also explained in the SOP.

Originally Posted By: Elle
So in 1Co 3:15 is another place where it talks about the Great White throne judgment and it is said “If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.” God’s law that proceed from His mouth is like a fire. Daniel saw the same scene where the fire came from God’s throne in Dn 7:9 and then it was described as a river in the next v.10. John saw the same scene(or the judgment process) but saw the end of it by which that fire became a lake. In all cases the point is the fire came from God’s throne where judgment proceeds. God’s judgment will be made according to His own Law. The Bible says it is the Law that make us know sin. And that’s how God will make them know their sin after they stand before God throne. There is no detail in the Bible when these people will bow down before God and confess. All we can derive that it is sometime after the Great White throne. It could be at the 50th Jubilee – we do not know, But one thing we know, God will keep His Vow pronounce in Is 45 and will fulfill all feasts that illustrate the plan of salvation in the TYPE.


I see 1 Cor 3:15 in context as referring only to the “work” done by people in the Church of Christ, the foundation. Paul is saying that any work in the Church that is then properly built or using “worldly” materials will fail the fire testing of God. This judging does not necessarily imply the utter end, as I Theologically understand but, as indeed seen throughout Israel and Church history, periodic judgement days of God to purify His People/Church. In the utter end, it will be too late to have a salvific benefit.

Quote:
Elle: “God’s Saves ALL”

NJK: God’s promise of worldwide (= indeed “all”) blessing through Abraham is not synonymous with those blessed people being Spiritually saved. It just means that God’s Triumphant Israel will have a most positive and beneficial impact on the entire world, yet people will still, as in Eden, be free to choose whether to live by God’s ways or not. However in the light of this realized blessing, they will seal their fate as they will then be acting in the light of great and clear knowledge of God and His righteous, and tangibly beneficial ways.

Elle: Not according to the TYPE.


I see you claim of a “TYPE” to be incorrect in that you claim it is applying to everyone. God’s Feasts and Sabbaths were to be freely observed, by anyone who wanted to do so, even within Israel. God always grant full freedom in matters of love and obedience.
_________________________
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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#134828 - 06/29/11 02:11 AM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: Rick H]
cephalopod Offline
Active Member 2014
Full Member
Registered: 02/11/11
Posts: 252
Loc: Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: Rick H
I came across the building blocks of belief in the Adventist Movement and came across the tension between Calvinism and Arminianism. According to Calvinism:
"Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the Gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation."

Thus they stand against the freewill of man being turned to God on its own as seen in the following statement...
"... and I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, ‘If any man doth ascribe of salvation, even the very least, to the free will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright.’ It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that He gives both; that He is ‘Alpha and Omega’ in the salvation of men." (Charles H. Spurgeon from the sermon ‘Free Will A Slave’ (1855) referring to Luther's book The Bondage of the Will which is listed with other resources on this topic after this article).

So is Adventism Arminian (Free will) or is there a middle ground?


Adventists are Absolutely NOT absolutely Arminian....
...Adventists being: Christadelphians, WWCOG, Seventh-day Adventists & Jehovah's Witnesses.


Remonstrant Article 1
That God, by an eternal and UNCHANGEABLE purpose IN Jesus Christ his Son, before the foundation of the world, hath determined, out of the fallen, sinful race of men, to save IN Christ, for Christ’s sake, AND through Christ, those who, through the grace of the Holy Ghost, shall believe on this his son Jesus, and shall persevere in this faith and obedience of faith, through this grace, even to the end; and, on the other hand, to leave the incorrigible and unbelieving in sin and under wrath, and to condemn them as alienate from Christ, according to the word of the Gospel in John 3:36: “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him,” and according to other passages of Scripture also


Jevhovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, Seventh-day Adventists & WWCOG Armstrong....
..."ALL" believe Christ could have sinned and lost His salvation and Had He.
...Christ's husk would have been consumed by maggots and the world would be LOST eternally.

Had Jesus sinned the "pre-Incarnate Christ" would have been eternally blotted out by Father God....
...After He removed Michael's conferred diety.
...This is the Advent Faith as instructed through God's own Mighty Prophet Sister White.

So NO we are NOT Arminian when we along with our Adventist brothers REJECT the first several sentences....
...In the FIRST article.
...LOL.


Edited by cephalopod (06/29/11 02:13 AM)
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#134829 - 06/29/11 02:21 AM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: asygo]
cephalopod Offline
Active Member 2014
Full Member
Registered: 02/11/11
Posts: 252
Loc: Washington, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Which of the Pioneers were Methodist? Weren't James White and Uriah Smith something else?


To join the "post Miller" Adventist movement Sister White was a part of....
...One had to repudiate the papal Trinity doctrine.
...The pioneer faith of the SDA Church was absolutely anti-Trinitarian.
...It had zero "roots" in the Methodist tradition.
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#134839 - 06/30/11 04:37 AM Re: Is Adventism absolutely Arminian (Free will)? [Re: NJK Project]
Elle Offline
Active Member 2017
Most Dedicated Member
Registered: 12/13/08
Posts: 2287
Loc: Canada
NJK, Once again, I appreciate all your direct replies to my post. You know we are getting out of Topic and Cephalopod is properly bringing the discussion back on track.

Anyway we had progressed in discussing the GC which we can bring your comments to other topics.

NJK we both interpret texts in the Bible according to a view. Anyone does that and anyone believes they are exegetically correct. What will tell us whose view is correct? Again it will be via seeing if our view is in harmony with the Type.

If you "will" smile we can proceed this discussion at Is the Hell Doctrine in the Type(Laws of Moses)

Originally Posted By: NJK Project

Originally Posted By: Elle
You are not reading the text as it is simply written. To come to what you are saying, you have to add things to the text which is not there to say what you want it to say. V.21 says “Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God It’s not talking about fido here and it’s not saying that only those that are saved either. Plus v. 23 says not only they (refering to the the creature mention in v20 and 21), but ourselves also,(the believers), which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves (the believers) groan withing ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to with, the redemption of our body.


-Obviously Elle, you are preferring the reading of “the creature” vs. the also articular “(the) creation” [of God] (cf. Heb 9:11; Rev 3:14). I don’t see it as valid. I still see this passage as saying that all of God’s creation has been made to suffer the consequences of sin because of the fall of man and that is why they are eagerly awaiting for man to be restored.

In Rom 8:23 I exegetically see Paul as saying that it is not only creation that is affected, but even those who are currently first fruit of the redeemed. I.e., they too have to wait for others to complete this restoration before they could enjoy it. So I still see my view of how this will benefit animals who are part of this “creation” of God to be valid.

Originally Posted By: Elle
Hmmm… preferring Greek over Hebrew. Not a good sign. So we at least agree here on the word adversary despite you didn’t answer my question concerning if God created “adversity”, then did He create Satan which means “adversary”?


My referring to the LXX here is, as stated with cause. And that is, as easily seen in the English rendering of the Hebrew, that the word ra’ does not always have the same connotations throughout the OT. So the LXX differentiating here is valid. It indeed basically meant adversity/calamity and thus was a perfect word for the common work of the Devil which is “evil”. So I don’t see that it has that meaning in its every instance in the OT, indeed as with many other Hebrew words. So the LXX, which was the Bible of the NT Christians, is quite valuable in this regard.

Originally Posted By: Elle
Force: We’ve been over this many times.

And to repeat, the GC has nothing to do with the freewill, It has all to do with Ownership, Because God has created us and is the mover of all things, He is responsible for His creation. A goo God will correct/discipline his wayward children. He does not “destroy” them like the world destroys each other. God Destruction (Greek =apollumi or Hebrew = ‘abad – also means “lost” and Jesus said the lost sheep, the lost coin, and the prodigal son are found) is the way Christ destroys the old man of sin, to recreate a new one.


-To me, what you are describing as “moving” is still “force.”

-The distinct use of “utterly destroyed” (#1842) in Acts 3:23 as a consequence of rejecting the Messiah is the same as the OT’s “cut off” and does not, indeed is not, to involve any reconciliation/return.

-The “redemptive” examples you cite for the Lost Coin/Sheep and Prodigal sons, all have fulfillment in what Jesus came to establish, namely the “finding” of both “lost” Israelites and a people of God from the Gentiles. Wholesalely applying this everyone who has ever been born is not Biblical to me. One has to freely chose this available salvation. E.g., in the human example, the prodigal son had to decide to return to his father’s house. In the same way, pagans have to decide to return to the ways they actually know are normal/natural in regards to the last six commandments. And like the father in the parable, God then will meet them half way then to lead them to the paths for full restoration. However, as I Biblically see it, it is all a free choice, except, as with Paul in limited “first fruit” circumstances. However even then the free choice to obey or not is still present.

Originally Posted By: Elle
"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? ” Romans 9:21


My view reading Rom 9:14-29 is that God does this by indeed optionally exercising His mercy on whoever He choses to. With some people He chooses not to have mercy and thus, in this wrath, uses them and their already sinful ways as ‘vessels of destruction’. On others, who he could use as vessels, He allows Himself to have mercy on them. Still I see that this is all done out of weighed justice. I.e., some people have more redeemable qualities then others. Some sin according to sincere ignorance (e.g., Paul the persecutor). Others do so out of no sincere cause, but outright malevolence (e.g., Pharaoh oppressing Israel for no realistic reason).

Originally Posted By: Elle
Like Jesus corrected His disciples emphasis on sin when they questioned who had sinned? The blind man or his parents? “Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him” John 9:3. To me, Jesus is stating the purpose of real emphasis we should have on sin and what is the GC truly revolves around.”


Here, (a) the disciples needed to understand that this sickness was not incurred as a judgement of God; (b) as I am reading it, Jesus was saying that God, as seen in the story of Job, would only have inflicted/permitted this sickness only in the case the the glory of God would be made manifest in him.

Also in passages like Luke 13:16 & John 10:10 Jesus clearly says that it is Satan who is responsible for (generally) inflicting diseases (i.e., the ones that are not for a glorious end). So that man’s blindness from birth may indeed have been deliberately set up by God for Jesus and it indeed caused a major problems to the Pharisee. This is all similar to the purposeful sickness and death upon Lazarus also done in order to greatly undermine the position of the Jewish leaders. So Jesus may have been pointedly indicated that this man had been made blind from birth for that purpose and that He was indeed to heal him.

Originally Posted By: Elle
To meet with your weak logic that somehow a tree was necessary -- Did Lucifer had a tree to choose from when he fell? There was none for it was not necessary and the fall of Lucifer is well described in Ez 28:17 which is what Rom 9:20 said “…made subject to vanity, UNWILLINGLY” I have explained Lucifer’s fall phenomenon many times in this thread.


The fact that God placed a tree in the Garden was literally as a most prominent choice for man to deal with right from the start. This was done in every other world and they have not sinned. (But you probably don’t believe that SOP fuller revelation which is actually echoed in the Bible e.g., “worlds”, sons of God, etc.)

With “Lucifer”, God probably wanted to avoid this issue of sin at all costs, but Lucifer “discovered” it on his own. And since then, with the raging tiger out of the bag’ God no longer sought to hide it. (This “hiding” by God was a guileful part of Lucifer’s claim to Eve, especially now since God was no longer doing so.) So in order not to keep hidden any existing freedom that man has, God now provide this tangible option of a (voting) tree.

Also God does not suggest sins to his creatures. So Lucifer indeed had to “discover” sin on his own. Similarly God does not suggest the further sinning extremes that man has made sin the fall.

Quote:
Elle: “Did God Miss the Mark ?”
NJK: Joseph’s story. -God allowed what happened to Joseph to take place, i.e., played along with the free choice developments of his brothers, and thus “meant it for good” as one of the thousands of ways he could have succeed in just bringing Joseph to Egypt. And given the free evil disposition of his brothers, the Patriarchs of His Israel, this way was indeed the best one under those circumstances as God could also use it to most strikingly humble his brothers and serve as an object lesson for the nation of Israel.

NJK: So God could have easily brought Joseph to Egypt by giving him his famine-overcoming dreams while in Canaan and instructing him to travel to Egypt and relate them to Pharaoh as the solution, however God also had to deal with this evil and jealousy with these brothers, and perhaps also tinge of pride in Joseph.

Elle: This is all added supposition of yours – adding to the Bible and blinding yourself to the texts where God makes it plain that He CREATED EVIL and done all these evils (or adversary if you want to word it as so). So what happened to Joseph was part of God’s plan and God did not “react” to the situation like you are implying. God is Sovereign and in charge and in control of the main events. So God brought these evils in Joseph’s life so that the works of God should be made manifest in him” The focuss is not SIN that man has commited --- or the EVIL that is upon them…. but that we may behold the Works of God, so that our trust in HIM will be restore; thus the trust in yourself destroyed.


As again stated above, I exegetically don’t at all see your “created evil” reading and understanding, so why would/should I interpret things in that way?? This view of Joseph is according to my understanding that God does not do things for spurious or even inexistent reasons, as I see your view believes as a foundation, but because of actually present circumstances. So this explanation of mine reflects my theology here.

In your view God acts to bring about “evil/adversity” for no tangible reason or cause, indeed whimsically (i.e., however He feels that day). I rather see the Biblical view that God has to so act out of just reasons to deal with existent and commit sin. Thus never without just cause. Frankly your view of God is dictatorial and tyrannical, moreover an insane dictator and tyrannical, with, even more dangerously, absolute power. No one in their right minds wants to serve, be under, or “love” such a person, even in our sinful world.

Originally Posted By: Elle
Like I said, if it’s not in the TYPE there’s no truth. In the TYPE there is a second chance depicted

Second Opportunity/Chance in the LAW of Moses (TYPE)

Num 9:5-11 "9:5 And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai: according to all that the LORD commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel.

9:6 And there were certain men, who were defiled by the dead body of a man, that they could not keep the passover on that day: and they came before Moses and before Aaron on that day:

9:7 And those men said unto him, We are defiled by the dead body of a man: wherefore are we kept back, that we may not offer an offering of the LORD in his appointed season among the children of Israel?

9:8 And Moses said unto them, Stand still, and I will hear what the LORD will command concerning you.

9:9 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

9:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If any man of you or of your posterity shall be unclean by reason of a dead body, or be in a journey afar off, yet he shall keep the passover unto the LORD,.

9:11 The fourteenth day of the second month at even they shall keep it, and eat it with unleavened bread and bitter herbs."


Here in the TYPE we see that God makes provision for a "second chance". I put "second chance" in a quote for it is not really a second chance but rather it was God's plan from the beginning. But most of Christianity opposes the concept of a "second chance", however, it is written in the Type of such. But since it is rare to find anyone studying the laws of Moses because everyone believes it is nailed to the cross and don't have not much relevance to us today, this text is unknown. Let's label this as a second opportunity for justification. The Passover represents justification which we are justified by the blood/merits of Christ. The blood needed to be smear on the top(head) and the two lintel(arms & hands) of the door. Then the Passover meat and the unleavened bread to be eaten.

This law brings two reasons why a person could not keep or have missed the first opportunity for justification.

(i) Those that were defiled” by touching the dead body of a man: ” In application, our mortal bodies is a "body of death"” (Rom 7:24). Believers are those who “have passed from death to life” ” (1Jn 3:14) and “are clean through the word” ”(John 15:3). The unbelievers are still unclean=defiled by reason of touching their own dead body.

(ii) Those who were in a journey afar off ” (from God): Like the prodigal son in Luke 15, he too will have a second opportunity later to keep the Passover.

This provision made by God in the Law are for the majority of mankind, who are yet dead in their sins and their heart are far from God.


If your are going to honestly be faithful to your “types” view here, then you should readily see and understand that the Passover is not the final step in salvation, nor a type of the Final Judgement/Fate of man. That is found in the Fall feast of the Day of Atonement and there are no second chances there. All those who kept/celebrated Passover had to successfully go through that Day of Judgement. Making a ‘final’ Passover association here is similar to the truncated Evangelical Gospel where there is no, especially pre-advent, judgement. In fact there also is an unbiblical post “rapture” second chance.

I also see that the Bible teaches that someone who willfully rejects the sacrifice of Christ cannot be saved through a second chance. The reasons cited by God do not involve purposeful actions. Dead bodies had to be immediately dealt with, and a person on a journey may not be able to travel fast enough to make it back in time. In our world we have many, even most situations where people have rejected various manifestations of saving knowledge and light. And so they will be condemned according to that obtainable “salvation.”

Quote:
NJK: You mention the Jubilee, which I believe will be forced to fully occur because God’s Church has failed in doing the work which would have skipped a full implementation of this type, do you believe that people will be resurrected to live a proper life during this pre-advent (cf. EW 286.1) Jubilee period.

Elle: According to the Feasts depicted, only the firstfruit(barley) is harvested first and consumed(their body changed into immortality – the hope of glory). Those are they that will be part of the first resurrection. The other two harvests(Wheat=Church and grapes=Wicked) will have to wait for after the 2nd ressurection.

Elle: This is what I currently understand of the Jubilee. The soon coming 7th millennium is on the grand scale of the Jubilee. As the 7th year, the land was to be given a rest; so this is applied in the scale of the world as the 7th millennium. During the 7th year(or Millenium on the grander scale) all the slaves were released from their bondage for that sabbatical year. During the 7th Millenium, the firstfruit only lives, the others, their bondage to vanity is temporarily lifted as they are given a millennium rest before they get resurrected. But the real Jubilee in the TYPE happens on the fall of the 49th year, so on the world scale it might be the 49th Millenium. So the way I see it, the restitution sentences given to the guilty at the Great White throne, probably will have 42 Thousand years sold to slavery to pay their debt. Depending on the amount of restitution given by God’s verdict, some will pay it off before the 50th Jubillee is reached, and others will not. However, according to the Law of Jubillee, regardless if it is paid or not, their debt will be fully cancelled once the Jubilee rolls over and they will be restore back to their heritage.


I see that the Jubilees only tnagibly applies to those who willfully observe it, as with other feasts of God. Those who freely chose not to will suffer the consequence/punishment (e.g, Zech 14:12-19). Indeed as seen in Israel’s history, God did not force them to observe His Feasts, or keep His Laws and Statutes. So I don’t see him doing this in the “anti-typical” era.

Quote:
NJK: My view is that this will only apply to those who are alive then, and all still in faith. The Bible teaches that everyone seals their fate upon their death.

Elle: Yes, it is so. The faith of the Believers or Unbelievers whether they be part of the first resurrection or not is determined upon their death. However, the first resurrection does not equate salvation. There’s no were in scriptures or the Type that requires that man has to be redeemed before the first resurrection.


I readily see Heb 3:7-4:11 to be “typologically” speaking against this view that there is a second chance after the first one has been squandered. That is for the ones who had had that chance already. Also the reason for this failure and rejection is unbelief and disobedience. So a freedom of the will is also involved here.

Originally Posted By: Elle
We are justified and glory(build Chraracter of Christ) either by 1. Faith or by 2. Tribulations(Rom 5:2,3) both through Jesus Christ. Those by faith will benefit of the first ressurection, the others by much tribulations after the 2nd resurrection by which they will learn righteousness later (Is 26:9; Acts 14:22).


I rather see that Rom 5:1-3 is saying that once we have obtained justification by faith, we then can obtain a perseverance for this faith through permitted tribulations. Clearly your understanding has people being justified by tribulation and not faith in Jesus, and that is not Biblical. Further it is implying a justification by force: I.e., ‘accept Jesus or continue to suffer these tribulations’. While the Biblical development is ‘one is willing to suffer these tribulations because they have already freely chosen to have faith in Jesus.’ That is what is stated in Acts 14:22. I.e., tribulation does not come before genuine faith. And it is also only saying that the path to the Kingdom of God is filled with tribulation that the righteous must go through.

Isa 26:9 - In wider context, e.g., vs. 10, I don’t see this passage as meaning that the inhabitants of the world cannot rebel against this learned righteousness. That is indeed why they have to be still severly dealt with and destroyed (vss. 11-14; 18-21). The SOP rightly applies this passage to the utter end, as indeed, even after the righteousness of God has filled the earth, the wicked will still prefer to do evil (vss. 18-21).

Quote:
NJK: In regards to your claim of Rom 11;26, Paul qualifies “Israel” as only those who come to accept Jesus Christ. (E.g. Rom 9:6-8ff; cf. Gal 3:29 & Rom 2:28, 29) .

Elle: It is true that there is that dimension where the children of the flesh cannot inherit the kingdom of God. All must be born again and to come to this birth, God first needs to destroy all that we put our faith in(flesh or other things aside from the only true God). Once we are dead, then God can implant the seed(Jesus) in our heart and recreate us new.


This is where I see the death knell of your view: What is God waiting for then??? He is not powerful enough to do this faster??? Indeed why 6000 years of billions of sinners. Why didn’t He just do this with Adam and Eve when they first fell??

Originally Posted By: Elle
Regardless of that constant problem of the Jews relying that their salvation was secure because of heritage, Paul was quoting Is 45:17, 25 and other scriptures in OT. Which is very specific in referring to Israel which God had prophecied that He was going to destroy and disperse them in the whole world in the chapters before. He made a vow in Is 45 that “…shall all the seed of Israel be justified and shall [u]glory” By using the work “glory” ” – here it is very definite we are not talking of Christ “give the option of life by dying for all but you need to choose”. It is clear that God’s vow is specifically saying that ALL ISRAEL SHALL GLORY” – meaning will build Christlike character.


You are simply reechoing that spurious belief by the Jews that “Israel” refers to all of the descendants of Abraham. Paul’s clear point is that it only applied to those who like Jacob, their name sake was victorious with God. E.g., Esau, Jacob brother, though a descendant of Abraham, was not considered as being “Israel”. Unlike his brother, he had chosen not to strive with God to obtain mercy and the promised blessing.

Originally Posted By: Elle
Despite you would like everyone to believe, I have not build a teaching on one verse. I have met all your opinions and scriptures you have brought with sound Biblical support plus build on the revelation from the TYPE where the foundation of the plan of salvation is revealed.


I had meant, in pointed context, that your claim for Israel in the Isa 45 texts you cite, is to the exclusion of what the rest of the Bible says this Israel really is. Hence the lone text statement, which was not meant generally.

Nonetheless, I really do not see that you have presented an exegetically sound/valid text for your claim. And to be exegetically sound, any passage is not to be interpreted in isolation of other related texts.

Originally Posted By: Elle
Little is said of the rebellion of Rev 20:7-11 and what takes place afterward. All we know sometime afterward that God sat on His Great White throne and judge those part of the 2nd resurrection. We know from scriptures that all sins will be judge, therefore the sins of these people will be judged according to God’s righteous judgment described in the Law of Moses to establish divine order. Some will have a few or many lashing(luk 12:47,48), and others will be thrown in the lake of fire (= Law =sentenced according to the Law of Moses with a restitution to pay up). God will bring divine order through Righteous Judgment. Divine Judgment is not like the world which is a punitive system which is not aim to restore the criminal. Divine Judgment has for objective to restore the criminal and to bring restitution to the victim. That’s when Justice is served and a court case is closed.


I clearly see that what is said in Rev 20:7-10 & 11-15 is clear enough as to what happens to the wicked. No second chance is mentioned or indicated there. Instead arresting punishment and death-a resurrection-condemnatory judgement and another similar and Final Lake of Fire destruction. Luke 12:47, 48 only speaks to the varying lengths of punishment that will be imposed on these wicked people, as also explained in the SOP.

Originally Posted By: Elle
So in 1Co 3:15 is another place where it talks about the Great White throne judgment and it is said “If any man's work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.” God’s law that proceed from His mouth is like a fire. Daniel saw the same scene where the fire came from God’s throne in Dn 7:9 and then it was described as a river in the next v.10. John saw the same scene(or the judgment process) but saw the end of it by which that fire became a lake. In all cases the point is the fire came from God’s throne where judgment proceeds. God’s judgment will be made according to His own Law. The Bible says it is the Law that make us know sin. And that’s how God will make them know their sin after they stand before God throne. There is no detail in the Bible when these people will bow down before God and confess. All we can derive that it is sometime after the Great White throne. It could be at the 50th Jubilee – we do not know, But one thing we know, God will keep His Vow pronounce in Is 45 and will fulfill all feasts that illustrate the plan of salvation in the TYPE.


I see 1 Cor 3:15 in context as referring only to the “work” done by people in the Church of Christ, the foundation. Paul is saying that any work in the Church that is then properly built or using “worldly” materials will fail the fire testing of God. This judging does not necessarily imply the utter end, as I Theologically understand but, as indeed seen throughout Israel and Church history, periodic judgement days of God to purify His People/Church. In the utter end, it will be too late to have a salvific benefit.

Quote:
Elle: “God’s Saves ALL”

NJK: God’s promise of worldwide (= indeed “all”) blessing through Abraham is not synonymous with those blessed people being Spiritually saved. It just means that God’s Triumphant Israel will have a most positive and beneficial impact on the entire world, yet people will still, as in Eden, be free to choose whether to live by God’s ways or not. However in the light of this realized blessing, they will seal their fate as they will then be acting in the light of great and clear knowledge of God and His righteous, and tangibly beneficial ways.

Elle: Not according to the TYPE.


I see you claim of a “TYPE” to be incorrect in that you claim it is applying to everyone. God’s Feasts and Sabbaths were to be freely observed, by anyone who wanted to do so, even within Israel. God always grant full freedom in matters of love and obedience.
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