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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Rosangela] #135295
07/19/11 06:00 PM
07/19/11 06:00 PM
NJK Project  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
If what you are saying is true, why is it that the skin of Eskimos has not made the color adaptation and become lighter after 2000 years?


Because, as my view had implied, not one single person has lived for those 2000 years, (vs. the 438, if not more, years of those living right after the Flood) where their body would have been so constantly affected by an excess or a lack of sunlight to cause a permanent coping recoding in their DNA to deal with this, which then would be passed on, and defaulty implemented in offsprings from their birth. Our current average lifespan of 70-80 years with, moreover a variously sheltered lifestyle, is, according to my hypothesis/theory/understanding not enough to cause this (permanent) DNA recoding.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Rosangela] #135441
07/29/11 05:42 PM
07/29/11 05:42 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Re: #4
I don't believe that all of our current races were borne on the ark. In that sense, you and I agree. However, I do believe that there was sufficient variety represented on the ark to pass on the diversity which we now have.

If you look at at people who live for generations in the hot sun, you will not see that their color changes because of it. At least, I have not seen that. Look at the Middle East, for example. How many of the so-called "Arabs" are black? Do they not live in some of the hotter and more desert-covered terrains on the planet? Why should they not be much nearer to ebony in their appearance? Genetics are not quickly changed by a little sunshine. Wrinkles may come. Dark tans may come. But permanently black or wrinkled skin in one's progeny does not come.

So, I would return the question to you--where do you think the black color would have "evolved?"
Where?
Ummmm.... in the hot sun?

Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: kland] #135442
07/29/11 05:49 PM
07/29/11 05:49 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
First of all, it does not explain the clear climate and skin color correlation. I.e, hotter climates = darker skin | colder climates = lighter skin, and then there are the in between color of the Middle East peoples.

How do you explain the fact that the Eskimos of Alaska have a dark skin, although this northern region does not receive much UV radiation?
Not much? Could you give some quantitative comparisons?

Quote:
Besides, climate changes became pronounced after the flood, and it was only natural that people with a lighter skin would seek the regions with colder climates to live in.

Huh? Why would it be "natural" for lighter skinned people to seek colder climates? If you switched that around and said that people who sought colder climates (actually, more non-equatorial) became lighter skinned, I would agree. Those genes would serve no purpose and die out. "Adaptation" only occurs with death over time.

Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: kland] #135446
07/30/11 12:18 AM
07/30/11 12:18 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Not much? Could you give some quantitative comparisons?

This is from 2009, but it will do for purposes of comparison:

Average UV index for Alaska, North Pole:
January 0.27
February 0.5
March 1.36
April 2.61
May 3.97
June 4.28
July 4.08
August 3.26
September 1.59
October 0.6
November 0.21
December 0.1
The Average UV Index for 2009 was 1.87
http://www.homefacts.com/uvindex/Alaska/Fairbanks-North-Star-County/North-Pole.html

Average UV index for Miami (which is not in the Equator, but 1,779 miles from it):
January 5.83
February 6.78
March 9.05
April 10.58
May 10.16
June 10.64
July 11.57
August 11.34
September 9.82
October 8.01
November 5.52
December 4.47
The Average UV Index for 2009 was 8.54
http://www.homefacts.com/uvindex/Florida/Miami-Dade-County/Miami.html

In Honolulu, Hawaii, the Average UV Index for 2009 was 9.17.
http://www.homefacts.com/uvindex/Hawaii/Honolulu-County/Honolulu.html

In a city located in the Equator, the UV Index is, most of the year, extreme (above 11).

Quote:
Huh? Why would it be "natural" for lighter skinned people to seek colder climates?

Because, of course, the lighter your skin the less tolerance you'll have for sun exposure.

Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Rosangela] #135447
07/30/11 01:14 AM
07/30/11 01:14 AM
NJK Project  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Originally Posted By: kland
Huh? Why would it be "natural" for lighter skinned people to seek colder climates?


Because, of course, the lighter your skin the less tolerance you'll have for sun exposure.


That may surfacely seem to be likely, however, as already explained in Post #135256, that does not seem to be the reason for the chosen destinations for post-flood migration. It seems most sequitur to me that the migration came first and then people had to cope with whatever climate they were in, especially as they probably did not have much options for another place without generating a serious conflict with an already occupying group of people.

Also, as EGW states (3SG 78.2), the area where (I extrapolate) Eden and its surrounding was and where most people lived was, because of its elevated populating, was destroyed more than other (uninhabited, even vacant) parts the Earth. (As I see it, the current predominantly barren and desert relief Middle East and Northern Africa). So many people would have preferred going to further places within the contiguous Europe-Asia Continent to find more fertile places to settle in.

Also I see it as logical that people living immediately after the Flood were much healthier in every aspect than people today (which I why I see that they lived ca. 430+ years). They thus would have been able to much better tolerate sunlight exposure, and probably did not have cases of sunlight caused skin cancer as we readily see today. They may not have experienced sun burns, even while they may be tanning.

So to me the darker and lighter skin colors came about simply by the various climate where those most early post flood people persisted in living. And all started by being tanned.

Also your “less tolerance” claim does not explain why many lighter skin people live in e.g., Florida, and if it was geopolitically and socio-economically seamlessly “easy” to do, many would live in more Southern, hotter regions, e.g., Cuba, Jamaica, and Other Carribean and (northern) South America regions.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: NJK Project] #135452
07/30/11 05:53 AM
07/30/11 05:53 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
A very interesting map of the racial distribution of the three primary races (European, Asian, Negroid) as of 1911, still in Mrs. White's day, and somewhat ahead of the global age of travel, can be found here:

http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/world_races_1911.htm

Of course, you will notice that some of the migrations of peoples are already in evidence there, such as the darkening of the south-east US, and the Europeans represented in the southern tip of Africa. But if you consider for a moment that both Africa and South America have long traditions with the native peoples there, one might wonder why, if Africans got black through sun exposure, the same did not happen to the the South Americans who are at the very same latitudes.

Again, genotypes have not been proven to "evolve" to black as a result of sun exposure. Nor has the reverse ever been shown to be the case. I think most any bright young, up-and-coming scholar in the scientific world who proposed that black people who had moved to England would in a calculated number of generations, even if strictly marrying with only their own kind, "evolve" into "whites," would be laughed to scorn. Any scientist making such fanciful claims would be held in derision in the scientific community. There is simply no proof of it. Of course, they might say that if we were to give it a few million years that it might occur, but I don't know of any scientist who would risk tarnishing his reputation by even considering such a preposterous evolution in but a few generations. "Few" is a relative term, of course. Six thousand years of life yields very "few" generations in the minds of most of today's scientists.

Considering that for the first 2000 years of this earth's history only 20 generations are recorded in the Bible, that significantly reduces the total possible number of generations that we might arrive at today.

How many generations would it take for "whites" to evolve into "blacks," given a hot, sunny environment?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: NJK Project] #135462
07/30/11 06:25 PM
07/30/11 06:25 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Also your “less tolerance” claim does not explain why many lighter skin people live in e.g., Florida, and if it was geopolitically and socio-economically seamlessly “easy” to do, many would live in more Southern, hotter regions, e.g., Cuba, Jamaica, and Other Carribean and (northern) South America regions.

???
Obviously I refer to the time when the several peoples first began to look for a place to settle in after the flood, not to modern times. Examples from the modern world make no sense in this discussion. Our lifestyle today is completely different from then.

Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Green Cochoa] #135463
07/30/11 06:57 PM
07/30/11 06:57 PM
NJK Project  Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
A very interesting map of the racial distribution of the three primary races (European, Asian, Negroid) as of 1911, still in Mrs. White's day, and somewhat ahead of the global age of travel, can be found here:

http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/world_races_1911.htm


That does not address my hypothesis. I claim that this change occurred in the first 430+ to even, roughly speaking 800-1100 years (i.e., 2-3 400/300 year generations), right after the flood. You chart is only showing where those races have globally migrated by 1911. Who populous, if any, even lived in areas such a Australia, North and South America before relatively recent times (ca. 1492)??

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Of course, you will notice that some of the migrations of peoples are already in evidence there, such as the darkening of the south-east US, and the Europeans represented in the southern tip of Africa. But if you consider for a moment that both Africa and South America have long traditions with the native peoples there, one might wonder why, if Africans got black through sun exposure, the same did not happen to the the South Americans who are at the very same latitudes.


By the time that “South America” was, even indigenously, populated, in the second half of the 20th century, according to my hypothesis which require a long life by a single ancestor, sun exposure would not be long enough to effectuate this permanent UV protection genetic change.

And if that were substantively applicable, unlike the pre-flood populated, “African/Middle East” Region, which was more severely damaged than the unpopulated South American regions, indeed as seen by the extreme difference in foliage, anyone living in the tropics of South America would predominantly, even deliberately be living under and/or seeking the available natural sun shade. That was not, as enduringly seen today, an availability for post-flood people who lived in the Africa/Middle East region.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Again, genotypes have not been proven to "evolve" to black as a result of sun exposure. Nor has the reverse ever been shown to be the case. ... There is simply no proof of it.


I do not even think it has even been hypothesized let alone, then tested and proven.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I think most any bright young, up-and-coming scholar in the scientific world who proposed that black people who had moved to England would in a calculated number of generations, even if strictly marrying with only their own kind, "evolve" into "whites," would be laughed to scorn. Any scientist making such fanciful claims would be held in derision in the scientific community.


Objection!! Speculating! Indeed this is just pure subjective/biased speculation on your part and shows/proves absolutely nothing factual.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Of course, they might say that if we were to give it a few million years that it might occur, but I don't know of any scientist who would risk tarnishing his reputation by even considering such a preposterous evolution in but a few generations. "Few" is a relative term, of course. Six thousand years of life yields very "few" generations in the minds of most of today's scientists.

Considering that for the first 2000 years of this earth's history only 20 generations are recorded in the Bible, that significantly reduces the total possible number of generations that we might arrive at today.


Obviously you don’t understand my hypothesis. I advance/posit a single generation/person, living 430 years, with constant UV exposure or deprivation to the point where the body genetically, permanently reacts, resulting in this altered skin color coding being fully passed on the next offspring. No “evolving” or ‘gradually become darker/lighter. It is, according to my view, a single generation affectation.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
How many generations would it take for "whites" to evolve into "blacks," given a hot, sunny environment?


According to my hypothesis: one from a 430+ year, 12-16 hours per day, tropical, unhindered suntanning.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Rosangela] #135464
07/30/11 06:58 PM
07/30/11 06:58 PM
NJK Project  Offline
Banned Member
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 1,098
Laval, Quebec
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Also your “less tolerance” claim does not explain why many lighter skin people live in e.g., Florida, and if it was geopolitically and socio-economically seamlessly “easy” to do, many would live in more Southern, hotter regions, e.g., Cuba, Jamaica, and Other Carribean and (northern) South America regions.

???
Obviously I refer to the time when the several peoples first began to look for a place to settle in after the flood, not to modern times. Examples from the modern world make no sense in this discussion. Our lifestyle today is completely different from then.


I am fully aware of that and that emphasized specification still does not validate your claim here. Why would light skin people (and most likely equally, if not much more fully clothed than those in our day) today be able to “better tolerate” the sunlight??

Also my view is that all people were tanned to start with and those after the flood who went to live in climates with less sun became gradually then “genetically permanently” lighter over their 400+ year life while the opposite occurred for people living in tropical and “uncovered” places, particularly with those who wore very little clothes.


“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: NJK Project] #135466
07/30/11 07:19 PM
07/30/11 07:19 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Why would light skin people (and most likely equally, if not much more fully clothed than those in our day) today be able to “better tolerate” the sunlight??

You yourself pointed out that our lifestyle is now much more sun-sheltered than it was then.

Quote:
Also my view is that all people were tanned to start with and those after the flood who went to live in climates with less sun became gradually then “genetically permanently” lighter over their 400+ year life while the opposite occurred for people living in tropical and “uncovered” places, particularly with those who wore very little clothes.

What do you mean is that acquired characteristics can be passed on genetically?

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