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#135153 - 07/15/11 12:37 PM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Green Cochoa]
Mountain Man Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Did Noah and his boys or their wives carry the marked genes of Cain? Or, did the mark of Cain die with Cain? The post-Flood amalgamation that resulted in "certain races of men" is not the result of scientists uniting animal and human genes in a laboratory. Hopefully we can agree on this point. Therefore, we are left with two options (I'm sure somebody else can think of other options) - 1) "certain races of men" are a result of natural copulation, and 2) "certain races of men" are a result of genetic manipulation in laboratories.

It is my belief that Ham's wife was a descendant of Cain. Their son, perhaps having an appearance like Cain, was named "Cainan." He is the one whom Noah cursed with slavery and servanthood. It is readily apparent when looking at history how much this curse has indeed been fulfilled. Yes, there have been slaves of every race. But if you were to take a survey of which race, above all others, was thought to have been most subjected to slavery, I think blacks would be selected the majority of the time. This curse dates all the way back to Noah.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

What is the name of Ham's wife?
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#135155 - 07/15/11 01:57 PM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Mountain Man]
Green Cochoa Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
What is the name of Ham's wife?

I would be interested in knowing this too, if you happen to know. However, I do not believe it is essential, nor that it would necessarily be enlightening.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
_________________________
Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson
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#135162 - 07/15/11 11:17 PM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Green Cochoa]
Mountain Man Offline
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The idea that Canaan was named after his mother's ancestor, Cain, and, therefore, most probably shares his black skin color, seems too far fetched to consider seriously, wouldn't you say?
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#135164 - 07/16/11 01:41 AM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Mountain Man]
Green Cochoa Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The idea that Canaan was named after his mother's ancestor, Cain, and, therefore, most probably shares his black skin color, seems too far fetched to consider seriously, wouldn't you say?

Time will tell. We'll know soon enough.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
_________________________
Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson
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#135171 - 07/16/11 10:44 AM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Rosangela]
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
The fact that people in Africa, as well as other southern climates have a history of predominantly living out in the open/nature, versus others who had to build climate shelters and thus naturally lived in them year round, among other factors, led to this skin adapting change over time, with not much reasons for a reversal either way after that in succeeding, much shorter, sheltered and comfortably living generations.

This viewpoint is more reasonable, in my opinion:

Quote:
When we look around us today and see all of the different physical characteristics in people and relate this to Adam, who was the first man, we can see that in Adam the potential combination of genes was enormous. ...

Considering this fact, it is easier to understand how Adam produced all the different varieties we see in people today. Also very important is the evidence that after a number of generations, there appears to be strong evidence that certain genes become dominant and the variability of characteristics is limited.22 This does not mean that other genes are not present. However it does mean some genes, once they reach a point, become dominant and continue to be dominant in future generations. This only occurs with in breeding or selective breeding.

An example was my FDS (Field Dog Stud Book) registered Irish Setter "Bryan's Red Sun" (we just called him "Sam"). He was the product of selected breeding over many generations. As a dog breeder, one basic rule I quickly learned was that to produce an Irish Setter, I had to breed a male and female Irish Setter. This is where the term "pure breed" comes from. In other words, in Sam's historical blood line for several hundred years only dogs of the same family were bred together. No other breed of dog was allowed to "cross breed" into his blood line. The key to producing a particular breed is in isolation from other breeds. The genes which produced the red-colored hair and general physical appearance of the Irish Setter have become dominate by selective breeding, and consistently produce the same characteristics over and over again in every generation.

Through the example of Sam, we see that isolation of a group of dogs from other groups of dogs produces what could be called "race." Note, however, that even within the "race" or "breed" called Irish Setter there is still much potential for variation.

... In this paper we have seen that the decedents of Noah's three sons were generally dispersed over all the earth. Also, the physical characteristics of any of his sons were not exclusive to his progeny. Each could and did produce different colored offspring.

The most important factor in reaching an explanation for the origin of race is the understanding that as the migration from the Middle East proceeded, contact with other groups became less frequent, and finally each group became isolated from all others, and the groups became smaller. Because of this isolation men and women married within their own group. Thus in breeding took place within an isolated group and between kin.

An example of how isolation caused particular characteristics in a group of people would be the American Indian. The American Indian originated from oriental peoples who came across the Bering Strait which connected eastern Asia and Alaska. As they migrated south and east, they became isolated from the peoples of Asia. American Indians are considered to be Mongoloid people, but differ from Asian Mongoloids of China and Japan. One must assume that genetics caused the American Indian to be somewhat different from other Mongoloids of Asia. By moving into North America they became isolated from other Asian peoples. Their group was at first small and they married among their kin from within his group. The dominant genes of the group surfaced within a few generations and began to produce the general characteristics which are common to the American Indian today.

Some groups moved further south into Mexico and South America, and they, too, became isolated. This isolation caused somewhat differing physical appearances in each group. Thor Heyerdahl, the anthropologist, studied the people of North America and the Pacific islands for years. He has shown that the Polynesian people came from North America and migrated (in boats) to the Pacific Islands. The isolation of these people produced the Polynesian peoples.

Without isolation it is unlikely that "race" would have ever occurred. It is a vital part of understanding how genetics caused the different physical characteristics of isolated groups of people which we call races.

http://www.bible-truth.org/race.htm


That is an interesting view brought out in that website, however, I think that it actually comes to validate my different view on this. First of all, it does not explain the clear climate and skin color correlation. I.e, hotter climates = darker skin | colder climates = lighter skin, and then there are the in between color of the Middle East peoples. (I’ll address this later in a pointed point Green Cochoa made on this.) Clearly people of the same skin color did not choose to all live in the same area, as indigenously (versus migratorily), predominantly seen. E.g., lighter skin color people chose to god live in cold climates and darker skinned people did not chose to live in hot and sunny climates.

So this is where I see that the website dovetails with my view as it would in one part lead to such majority same color presence in one area because the sun can and does affect “generic expression”, as I believe, as God had designed it to do, if not, injunctively, at the gene level, after the flood, (probably starting with the first generation born from the Ark’s 8 (??)) given the way the earth’s climate had been so thrown out of natural order. So peoples who went to a certain area over their ca. 438 years for that first generation (cf. Gen 11:12), were not only affected by the constant lopsided climate, but were now, if this was not always possible, genetically susceptible to be, as a protective measure, affected by this exposure to the sun.

In terms of the race issue, it is true that groups of people who marrying within each other will produce a distinct race. That is easily seen with the sons of Shem (Gen 11) who went on to form the Semites. With that people group (or even race) (I believe all three of Noah’s sons were physically alike in terms of particularly skin color), distinct sub-groups/races came to be developed such as, as listed before, the Hebrews, Babylonians, Assyrians, Arameans, Arabs, etc.

So skin color itself and race to me are actually two distinct though often conflated things. Indeed within the black “race”, there are quite distinct subraces as seen in Africa itself and also groups of African who came to isolatively live in other parts of the world and intermarry specifically amongst themselves (e.g., Jamaicans, Haitians, Trinidadians, etc.,). I personally can easily featurely tell such subgroups apart, even without any cultural associating elements (e.g, dress, accent, language.)

So to me, first can the sun’s affectation and then came, pointedly subraces. It is also significant that there are only three main major races in the world, in terms of skin color: dark, tanned and lighter. Apparently some have used this fact to make the association to Noah’s 3 sons and then in turn, circularly, in my view, to one race (i.e, dark/black) one being “surely” the cursed race, when, as I pointed out before, that cursed seems to have been fulfilled in the Hebrew people ruling over the inhabitant of Canaan. In fact, it is significant to me that one cannot today show that they are of Canaanite origin (descendants of Canaan - Gen 10:15-19) while multitudes of others can easily show that they of Semitic origin (Shem’s descendants) So the curse has apparently been fully fulfilled in those Semitic groups, beyond the Hebrews practically effacing the distinctive Canaanite people. Indeed that may have been God’s intention all along in cursing Canaan’s descendants for this sin: I.e., your descendants will eventually lose their distinctness/independence. As a ‘servant of servant brothers’ (Gen 9:25), it seems to me that all of Ham’s sons (cf. Gen 10:6ff) were similarly cursed, and Canaan was pointedly more curse to eventually effectuate this total dispossession punishment.
_________________________
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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#135172 - 07/16/11 10:45 AM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Green Cochoa]
NJK Project Offline
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Responses to Green Cochoa’s points:

Re:1

From what I have seen about the History of Slavery, slavery has existed with every culture. To me it seems somewhat “moronically” comical that it is apparently that believe that blacks were cursed by God in that Gen 10 curse that self-fulfilled this result that blacks were to be slaves. It also “helped” that blacks were probably feasibly the easiest to mass subdue and enslave given how they were carefreely living. So I don’t see this argument as valid since it manifestly was due to a false assumptions by variously more advanced people groups. So it clearly does not circularly result in a proof. As with many things, false belief tend to be quite popular.

Re:2

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Why would Noah curse Ham's son instead of cursing Ham himself?


It seems clear to me, as stated in my above post, that in Gen 9:25, all 4 of Ham’s sons (Gen 10:6) were cursed. And Canaan was further cursed to result in a due, tangible Ham punishing territorial/people disinheritance.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
What about the business of children not being punished for the sins of their fathers and vice versa?


E.g., Exod 20:5/Deu 5:9; Exod 34:7; Num 14:18; 1 Kgs 21:29 say the contrary. I think that since God does bless descendants for the faithfulness of their fathers, then He has the right to equally apply a curse unto future generations for the wickedness of a father. In my view God has full discretionary authority to decide when this applies, and manifestly Ham’s sin was deserving of that, especially as his sin, if left unpunished, could have opened a floodgate, so early after the flood, of such sexually deviant practices, leading to even acted upon incestual/homosexual action (probably something the antediluvians practised, which would explain why God judgement on this was immediate, strict and far, future reaching).

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I believe that the Holy Spirit spoke through Noah in a sort of "birthright cursing" in this case. God knew the future, and preserved Noah's words to our generation to help us see the accuracy of His foreknowledge.


The issue of God knowing the future is a distinct topic, however from my perspective, where I do not Biblically see that the future can exist, and thus is not “available” to be known (but is only planned = Isa 46:9-11), this is where I personally see another fatalistic fallacy of the Classical foreknowledge view. I.e., ‘since black people have been the one who have been most enslaved (on as it can actually be ascertained from recent observation) then they must have been the ones cursed in Gen 9:25. First of all Biblical exegesis says otherwise and, like I said, that historical development was a self-fulfilling false understanding.

Re:4

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
If you look at at people who live for generations in the hot sun, you will not see that their color changes because of it. At least, I have not seen that. Look at the Middle East, for example. How many of the so-called "Arabs" are black? Do they not live in some of the hotter and more desert-covered terrains on the planet? Why should they not be much nearer to ebony in their appearance? Genetics are not quickly changed by a little sunshine. Wrinkles may come. Dark tans may come. But permanently black or wrinkled skin in one's progeny does not come.


This is where my point on “shelter” fits in. People in Africa, even to this day in may places, have literally lived out in the open and until recent times, with very little clothing, if any, that is quite a unique “culture” throughout the world, except for, not coincidentally at all, in the hot jungle regions of South America. So just like a person who were clothes outdoors/at the beach on a bright sunny will be quite drastically partially tanned, a person living 24-7 in the open and under burning sunlight will be much more affected than someone “culturally” wearing a robe from head to feet all day and living under tents as the people in the Middle East consistently did. So, as I see it, they remained in their original tanned skin color and did not become darker.

Also e.g, 438 years of, effectively an unobstructed sun tan will so affect one’s body that the genetic response to protectively cope with this is to constantly produce the bodily response that will result in the skin becoming darker and over such time, this change will apparently be registered by the body as needing to be permanent and thus one’s genes are changed. Over time, period/partial “tans” from more advanced descendants now living sun-sheltered lives, will not be enough to reverse that deeply entrenched change.

---

Re:5 & 6

If we really want to be literal/technical, as your, effectively, ‘sin is related to black skin color, view necessitates, then people who are called “black” are actually brown. Just. e.g,. look at the are of a “black” wearing an actually black, short-sleeve shirt. This whole relating of skin color to sin in any form, and particularly to black people, is just a culturally entrenched spurious assumption/“legend” and, frankly, quite a gross mal-association.
_________________________
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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#135173 - 07/16/11 10:45 AM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: APL]
NJK Project Offline
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Quote:
NJK: How is the contracting of HIV a (personal) choice when it is contracted through a hospital error during a blood transfusion or an accidental infection?

APL: Does a baby that contracts HIV in utero have a personal choice? They are born with it.


That seems to further my point: Choice is not necessarily an issue in viral contraction! In fact the parents of this baby (I assume that his is the only way that HIV can be contracted “in utero”) may not have contracted their infection by any (lifestyle) choice of their own. Just some ulterior accident/error.
_________________________
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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#135174 - 07/16/11 10:45 AM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Mountain Man]
NJK Project Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
What is the name of Ham's wife?


I don’t think the Bible reveals this...
_________________________
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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#135175 - 07/16/11 10:47 AM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Green Cochoa]
NJK Project Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
The idea that Canaan was named after his mother's ancestor, Cain, and, therefore, most probably shares his black skin color, seems too far fetched to consider seriously, wouldn't you say?

Time will tell. We'll know soon enough.


I think, as with most of these “time will tell” expressions, we better seek to get our facts, science and exegesis straight as soon as possible. In this case, I think it would have entirely prevented that whole Western Black Enslavement Era, which I see only had a recent occurrence, indeed evidently based upon the false/circular/self-retroactive belief that it was black people who were cursed in Gen 9:25. I think God will tell a lot of e.g, American slave owners, especially those who were pushed along by their local preachers, that they should have better studied their Bible, especially if they noticed the factual error of their but chose to maintain it, especially so as to not suffer economic loss by freeing their slaves. Seems to me, and perhaps historical/sermonic research will tangibly bear this out, that Northerners in America came to see this error and acted righteously in accordance to this manifest “Biblical doubt” by abstain from the enslaving of Africans.

When it comes to things that can be Biblically ascertained, a “wait and see” attitude, is never the best option... in any issue. In fact it is such a pervasive “procrastinative” stance that is postponing the consummation of this “time”!!
_________________________
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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#135180 - 07/16/11 01:22 PM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: NJK Project]
Mountain Man Offline
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While I disagree with GC, I do not, however, believe the curse of Cain or Canaan justifies slavery. There is absolutely no indication in the Bible black skin color is the result of curses. To imply otherwise is groundless and absurd.
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