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Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Elle] #137419
11/10/11 07:06 AM
11/10/11 07:06 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Elle
I do not doubt that the devil, Satan had fallen before the incidence of the tree of knowledge. We both agree on that one.

Nice to have at least one common ground point to start with.

Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: dedication
That old serpent, the devil, who was cast out of heaven with his angels was at the tree deceiving Eve.

Be careful, your scriptures provided above does not say nor suggest that they were cast out of heaven before the tree of knowledge. You are adding to scripture.


So you are saying that Satan continued to live in heaven after his fall?
He continued to live in heaven after having tempted Eve to sin and started the entire human race on the horrendous track of sin and suffering?

Somehow that does not sound right to me.

2 Cor. 6:14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
6:15 And what concord hath Christ with Belial?

That doesn't sound like satan would have continued in heaven after his fall.

Yes, I believe the war IN HEAVEN took place prior to Adam and Eve's creation.







Originally Posted By: Elle
i) Concerning the timing of the war mentioned in Rev 12:7-9, it is mention in Daniel 10:12,13,20,21 that there were a war going on at that time. Is it the same war referring in Rev 12:7-9???


I don't see the war in Daniel 10 as being in heaven.
Daniel 10 gives us a behind the scene look at what happens here on earth between the forces of evil and God's angels.
Notice it was over the king of Persia.

Satan's angels were trying to get the king to do something evil, while God's angels were countering them

God's angels ever put a check on the evil that fallen angels try to get people and national leaders to do.




Originally Posted By: Elle
ii) I do not understand the dimension of angels vs. earth affairs regarding spiritual warfare. For sure Paul told us very clearly in Eph 6:12 that the war is not against “flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in heavenly places.” In Daniel 10 it seems to indicate that what happens in heaven is highly connected with the affairs on earth.


I don't understand it all either, but I do know there is severe battle going on over every person pertaining to their salvation. So again I don't see this as a war in heaven but a continual war over the souls of people here on earth.
The phrase "heavenly places" = the word "places" is added, it's not in the original, and the word "heavenly" can mean 1)our atmosphere, 2) the universe 3) heaven.

Satan is also depicted by Paul, as the prince of the power of the air
Ephesians 2:2
These malevolent spirits work evil and mischief and operate in our atmosphere, trying to deceive and destroy everyone of us.



Quote:
iii) We also know that in the time of Job, Satan could go to heaven and present himself. So to me, that strongly suggest that he were not yet cast out.


But he wasn't living in heaven -- he was roaming to and fro on this earth.
The text doesn't even say the meeting was in heaven. Just that they all come to present themselves before the Lord.

Originally Posted By: elle
iv) In Jude, it says that they had left their abode, but that doesn’t mean that they were yet cast out.


It's true, Jude doesn't give a time frame.
Just refers to the past event.

However the word "abode" isn't really the best translation.
The word "archē" means 1)beginning 2) origin 3) first position 4)what they began as

They left the position God had created them to fulfill.




{quote=Elle]v) I do know that there are many battles within a war. And a war can take place over a long period of time. So this war mentioned in Rev 12:7-9 may not be over. Is it a battle within the big war??? I do not know since I really haven’t studied this.[/quote]

The war isn't over, I agree.
But yes, I believe Rev. 12 also refers to the initial battle when Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven.

It also refers to the battle at the cross.
When Satan killed the Son of God it sealed his defeat.

When Eve (the first representation of the woman) was given the promise -- one of your offspring (your seed) will bruise the head of the serpent (dragon). It was a promise that Christ, at the cross, would defeat satan.

Satan and his angels were cast out of heaven before creation, but that was merely a physical defeat ending his residence in heaven. His real defeat was sealed at the cross. However the battle isn't over, the final end comes when satan is destroyed.


Originally Posted By: elle
vii) Also there’s this question of authority in this warfare. Christ was given “authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.John 5:26,27). From what I’m starting to understand, this authority was given to Adam which were past down the line. With this authority, it seems that man had some ability or position to judge the angels that are part of this spiritual warfare by which has its effect on earth. I do not know how much man was aware of this dimension and thus be able to use this authority effectively in the time of the patriarch and before Jesus came. But once this authority was past down to Jesus, He knew what to do with it and finally He could, as a son of man, use it. Maybe that’s how and when Satan and the fallen angels were cast out of heaven???

The authority of Jesus was given Him by God.

Adam had authority but he lost it when he sinned. Satan claimed that authority over the earth for himself.

Of course the true authority always is in God's hands. And it is only through the power of God that mankind can withstand the fallen angels. And yes, scripture does say
1 Cor. 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels?
But that is future tense, not present tense.


It is only in the name of Jesus that anyone can withstand the forces of evil angels. We have no authority in and of ourselves that can withstand them.

Jesus is our defender and strength

I like how James writes it in envelope fashion:


James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
4:8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you.

God before us, and behind us, His presense all around --

Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Elle] #137425
11/10/11 12:52 PM
11/10/11 12:52 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland

Elle, why do you hyphenate God?



Quote:
k: Could good angels sin before they "fell"?

E: Fallen and being cast out of heaven is two different things. Man has fallen and we're not cast out of the earth.

So what was the meaning of saying:
Quote:
Now Dedication, may I see your Biblical texts to support that the angels fell before man was created.
Do you believe the angels fell or did not fell before man was created?

Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: kland] #137492
11/14/11 03:50 PM
11/14/11 03:50 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Posts: 6,416
Midland
Elle, here's an article in the Review which should answer your questions. I think the author did a good job and it includes the sons of God in Job.
http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=4544

Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Daryl] #137615
11/20/11 08:15 PM
11/20/11 08:15 PM
C
Charity  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 4,583
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Originally Posted By: Daryl F
Here is another relevant and more enlightening EGW quote:
Quote:
Every species of animals which God had created was preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood, there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men. {1SP 78.2}
This obviously took place after the flood resulting in an almost endless species of animals and affecting certain races of men.

What this means is something I do not know yet.

Does anybody have any thoughts regarding this?

Did you arrive at any consensus on this? What's your thinking now Daryl?

Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: kland] #138044
12/10/11 08:48 AM
12/10/11 08:48 AM
E
Elle  Offline
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Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: kland
Elle, here's an article in the Review which should answer your questions. I think the author did a good job and it includes the sons of God in Job.
http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=4544

Gee, Kland, you think the author did a good job to prove that where the Bible says "sons of God" in OT(mainly making reference of Job references) it means human beings from another planet???

That article is a pretty good desperate attempt to prove that EGW writing's is correct saying their is people in other planets. Let's face it, that's something that we totally cannot prove from the Bible.

I have checked all of the writer's proof text. And he has no proof at all, just a bunch of speculations and false assumptions to lay some form of foundation to make his proof.

So if we accept this unfounded speculation, then to be consistent Gen 6:2 where men from another planet taking Adams daughters for wives.

Well this article would make happy those who believe in aliens and seeking any type of Biblical proof to support their belief.


Blessings
Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Elle] #138051
12/10/11 04:56 PM
12/10/11 04:56 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Gee, Kland, you think the author did a good job to prove that where the Bible says "sons of God" in OT(mainly making reference of Job references) it means human beings from another planet???

I have not been following this discussion, but we can exam the term "sons of God" in the Bible.

In Gen. 6:2, 4, although some say that the expression "sons of God" refers to angels, they are entirely mistaken, because angels do not marry (Mark 12:25). So here the expression must refer to human beings.
However, in Job 1:6; 2:1 it obviously can't refer to human beings. It could refer to angels, but since the angels are always in the presence of God, would it make sense to say that they "came to present themselves before the Lord"? Perhaps, but the expression could refer to other beings besides men and angels. No, it's not possible to prove from the Bible that there are inhabitants in other worlds, but it's a view which is not ruled out by the Bible, either.

Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Rosangela] #138084
12/12/11 05:04 PM
12/12/11 05:04 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,416
Midland
Thanks, Rosangela.

Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Rosangela] #138241
12/19/11 01:52 PM
12/19/11 01:52 PM
Daryl  Offline
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23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
I always also used this to imply that there are unfallen beings living on other planets.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Gee, Kland, you think the author did a good job to prove that where the Bible says "sons of God" in OT(mainly making reference of Job references) it means human beings from another planet???

I have not been following this discussion, but we can exam the term "sons of God" in the Bible.

In Gen. 6:2, 4, although some say that the expression "sons of God" refers to angels, they are entirely mistaken, because angels do not marry (Mark 12:25). So here the expression must refer to human beings.
However, in Job 1:6; 2:1 it obviously can't refer to human beings. It could refer to angels, but since the angels are always in the presence of God, would it make sense to say that they "came to present themselves before the Lord"? Perhaps, but the expression could refer to other beings besides men and angels. No, it's not possible to prove from the Bible that there are inhabitants in other worlds, but it's a view which is not ruled out by the Bible, either.



In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Charity] #138242
12/19/11 01:54 PM
12/19/11 01:54 PM
Daryl  Offline
OP
Site Administrator
23000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 25,118
Nova Scotia, Canada
Need to first read all the posts since I posted that before attempting to anser your question, Mark.

Originally Posted By: Mark Shipowick
Originally Posted By: Daryl F
Here is another relevant and more enlightening EGW quote:
Quote:
Every species of animals which God had created was preserved in the ark. The confused species which God did not create, which were the result of amalgamation, were destroyed by the flood. Since the flood, there has been amalgamation of man and beast, as may be seen in the almost endless varieties of species of animals, and in certain races of men. {1SP 78.2}
This obviously took place after the flood resulting in an almost endless species of animals and affecting certain races of men.

What this means is something I do not know yet.

Does anybody have any thoughts regarding this?

Did you arrive at any consensus on this? What's your thinking now Daryl?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: kland] #138322
12/22/11 12:11 PM
12/22/11 12:11 PM
B
Bobryan  Offline
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Active Member 2015
Senior Member
Joined: Feb 2009
Posts: 793
Georgia, USA
Originally Posted By: kland
Elle, here's an article in the Review which should answer your questions. I think the author did a good job and it includes the sons of God in Job.
http://www.adventistreview.org/article.php?id=4544


That article concludes with

Quote:

The Sum of the Matter Is . . .
Let’s bring all the arguments together. In the New Testament “sons of God” refer to: (a) Jesus; (b) believers; (c) glorified believers. Indeed, true sonship is not achieved until after the resurrection. In the Old Testament “sons of God” refers to: (a) the king as a type of the Messiah; (b) believers; (c) a class of heavenly beings, distinct from angels, who appear to live afar from the throne of God, but who visit on a regular basis for worship and heavenly councils.


There is more than one context for the term "Sons of God" in the Bible. So in Gen 6 the fact that it is the "unequally yoked" problem whereby the "salt of the earth" has lost its savor - is not at all hard to see.

in Christ,

Bob

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