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#135190 - 07/16/11 02:04 PM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Mountain Man]
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
While I disagree with GC, I do not, however, believe the curse of Cain or Canaan justifies slavery. There is absolutely no indication in the Bible black skin color is the result of curses. To imply otherwise is groundless and absurd.


Agreed!!
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“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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#135201 - 07/17/11 01:06 AM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: NJK Project]
Green Cochoa Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Responses to Green Cochoa’s points:

Re:1

From what I have seen about the History of Slavery, slavery has existed with every culture. To me it seems somewhat “moronically” comical that it is apparently that believe that blacks were cursed by God in that Gen 10 curse that self-fulfilled this result that blacks were to be slaves. It also “helped” that blacks were probably feasibly the easiest to mass subdue and enslave given how they were carefreely living. So I don’t see this argument as valid since it manifestly was due to a false assumptions by variously more advanced people groups. So it clearly does not circularly result in a proof. As with many things, false belief tend to be quite popular.


Originally Posted By: NJK Project

Re:2

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Why would Noah curse Ham's son instead of cursing Ham himself?


It seems clear to me, as stated in my above post, that in Gen 9:25, all 4 of Ham’s sons (Gen 10:6) were cursed. And Canaan was further cursed to result in a due, tangible Ham punishing territorial/people disinheritance.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And he said, Cursed [be] Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. Gen. 9:25, KJV
And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan. Gen. 10:6, KJV

I would like to know what version of the Bible you might be reading. In my understanding of this text, the "brethren" spoken of are not necessarily his immediate brothers, but the lines of Japheth and Shem. In any case, Canaan only was cursed, if one is to follow that text.

Well, that addresses a couple of those points anyhow....

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
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Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson
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#135202 - 07/17/11 01:11 AM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Mountain Man]
Green Cochoa Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
While I disagree with GC, I do not, however, believe the curse of Cain or Canaan justifies slavery. There is absolutely no indication in the Bible black skin color is the result of curses. To imply otherwise is groundless and absurd.

Thank you, Mike, for bringing that up. I agree with you that there is no justification for mistreatment of other fellow human beings on the basis of a curse. Curse or no curse, Christians have a duty to treat people as befits ambassadors of Christ on behalf of "the least of these." It is only the heathen who fulfill such curses as these, without any need of help on the part of Christians. Christians should do all in their power to correct such injustices--and I think, for the most part, Christians are doing just that. May God bless those who do, in fulfillment of Jesus' promise "blessed are the peacemakers."

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
_________________________
Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson
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#135206 - 07/17/11 05:48 AM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Green Cochoa]
NJK Project Offline
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Bible
And he said, Cursed [be] Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren. Gen. 9:25, KJV
And the sons of Ham; Cush, and Mizraim, and Phut, and Canaan. Gen. 10:6, KJV


I would like to know what version of the Bible you might be reading. In my understanding of this text, the "brethren" spoken of are not necessarily his immediate brothers, but the lines of Japheth and Shem. In any case, Canaan only was cursed, if one is to follow that text.


I am basically using the NASB (1995).

Originally Posted By: NASB Gen 10:6
The sons of Ham were* Cush and Mizraim and Put and Canaan *(in italics in NASB = not in original text)


Gen 9:25 basically reads the same in both version, however I see that the “servant of servants” statement implies that the other 3 brothers were also to be servants; but the descendants of Canaan were to be the ‘servant of these other servants.’ From what I understand in EGW’s statement in PP 117.1, Canaan shared in the manifested post-flood character/moral degeneracy that was already in his father Ham and led him to react in this vile way to the Noah sin. Here are her full comments on this. Several other points I made in my prior post had been made there:

Originally Posted By: SOP PP 117.1-118.2
To repeople the desolate earth, which the Flood had so lately swept from its moral corruption, God had preserved but one family, the household of Noah, to whom He had declared, "Thee have I seen righteous before Me in this generation." Genesis 7:1. Yet in the three sons of Noah was speedily developed the same great distinction seen in the world before the Flood. In Shem, Ham, and Japheth, who were to be the founders of the human race, was foreshadowed the character of their posterity. {PP 117.1}
Noah, speaking by divine inspiration, foretold the history of the three great races to spring from these fathers of mankind. Tracing the descendants of Ham, through the son rather than the father, he declared, "Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren." The unnatural crime of Ham declared that filial reverence had long before been cast from his soul, and it revealed the impiety and vileness of his character. These evil characteristics were perpetuated in Canaan and his posterity, whose continued guilt called upon them the judgments of God. {PP 117.2}

On the other hand, the reverence manifested by Shem and Japheth for their father, and thus for the divine statutes, promised a brighter future for their descendants. Concerning these sons it was declared: "Blessed be Jehovah, God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant." The line of Shem was to be that of the chosen people, of God's covenant, of the promised Redeemer. Jehovah was the God of Shem. From him would descend Abraham, and the people of Israel, through whom Christ was to come. "Happy is that people, whose God is the Lord." Psalm 144:15. And Japheth "shall dwell in the tents of Shem." In the blessings of the gospel the descendants of Japheth were especially to share. {PP 117.3}

The posterity of Canaan descended to the most degrading forms of heathenism. Though the prophetic curse had doomed them to slavery, the doom was withheld for centuries. God bore with their impiety and corruption until they passed the limits of divine forbearance. Then they were dispossessed, and became bondmen to the descendants of Shem and Japheth. {PP 118.1}

The prophecy of Noah was no arbitrary denunciation of wrath or declaration of favor. It did not fix the character and destiny of his sons. But it showed what would be the result of the course of life they had severally chosen and the character they had developed. It was an expression of God's purpose toward them and their posterity in view of their own character and conduct. As a rule, children inherit the dispositions and tendencies of their parents, and imitate their example; so that the sins of the parents are practiced by the children from generation to generation. Thus the vileness and irreverence of Ham were reproduced in his posterity, bringing a curse upon them for many generations. "One sinner destroyeth much good." Ecclesiastes 9:18. {PP 118.2}


Notice in PP 118.1 that God intended to “dispossess” Canaan. To me EGW clearly understood that this slavery and “dispossession” curse applied to the inhabitants of Canaan (the infamous “-ites” vs. Israel) and not to black people/African and people much later (i.e., 2nd half of Christian Era), particularly later on when a “Biblical justification” was sought as it was being challenged by other Christians, assumed and believed leading to the mass and systematic enslavement of Black people. Indeed EGW sees this curse as having transpired long before that time. Again, no association at all by her to e.g., American Slavery.
_________________________
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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#135207 - 07/17/11 05:50 AM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Green Cochoa]
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I agree with you that there is no justification for mistreatment of other fellow human beings on the basis of a curse. Curse or no curse, Christians have a duty to treat people as befits ambassadors of Christ on behalf of "the least of these." It is only the heathen who fulfill such curses as these, without any need of help on the part of Christians.


I think that, factually speaking, you are now glibly going to the other extreme. If God curse another people, or worse, orders, as with Israel conquering those same “Canaanite” peoples, that some be entirely disseminated then, the “Christian” (i.e., God’s People) has the duty to faithfully execute the will of God here, indeed as with Samuel vs. Saul & Agag, at the peril of their own standing before God (1 Sam 15:22-35). Indeed had Shem and Japheth descendants not done their part (e.g, with Israel engaging in their conquering and disseminating expeditions), the Canaan curse would not have been fulfilled.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Christians should do all in their power to correct such injustices--and I think, for the most part, Christians are doing just that.


That factually is an easily disproven claim, (i.e., the “most” part). Just take a close look at the socio-economic injustices in our world today. There are enough resources, knowledge and manpower to resolve all of them and prevent senseless death and suffering, including the 65,000,000 annual abortions, but because, mainly Western Countries want to make more than enough and not, even equalizingly, share as instructed in the Gospel (e.g., Luke 3:11; 2 Cor 8:7-15), this suffering goes on and get worse. Surely it is not the ca. 15% of non-Christians, in America who are having 1.7 million abortions each year. The “most part” are, at least nomimal, Christians and denominations such as the SDA Church and its Hospital helps facilitate both this butchery and also senseless deaths (i.e., they have ca. 9 million outpatient visits in the U.S. per year, but do not help the ca. 40,000 people who die in the U.S. each year because they cannot afford medical services, let alone the many others who suffer for the same reason.) And just look in American at who is vehemently opposed to social justice, people who claim to be “born from above” Christians, namely Republicans. Sure.... They even find it Biblical to call this good evil. Talk about being grossly deceived. (Cf. EW 266-269) Jesus clearly did not love, worship and serve Mammon and Self as they do.
_________________________
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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#135217 - 07/17/11 01:46 PM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: NJK Project]
Green Cochoa Offline
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Originally Posted By: NJK Project
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
I agree with you that there is no justification for mistreatment of other fellow human beings on the basis of a curse. Curse or no curse, Christians have a duty to treat people as befits ambassadors of Christ on behalf of "the least of these." It is only the heathen who fulfill such curses as these, without any need of help on the part of Christians.


I think that, factually speaking, you are now glibly going to the other extreme. If God curse another people, or worse, orders, as with Israel conquering those same “Canaanite” peoples, that some be entirely disseminated then, the “Christian” (i.e., God’s People) has the duty to faithfully execute the will of God here, indeed as with Samuel vs. Saul & Agag, at the peril of their own standing before God (1 Sam 15:22-35). Indeed had Shem and Japheth descendants not done their part (e.g, with Israel engaging in their conquering and disseminating expeditions), the Canaan curse would not have been fulfilled.

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Christians should do all in their power to correct such injustices--and I think, for the most part, Christians are doing just that.



Let's look together at what Mrs. White wrote concerning some of these curses.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
17, 18. The Curse on All Creation.--All nature is confused; for God forbade the earth to carry out the purpose He had originally designed for it. Let there be no peace to the wicked, saith the Lord. The curse of God is upon all creation. Every year it makes itself more decidedly felt (MS 76a, 1901). {1BC 1085.5}
The first curse was pronounced upon the posterity of Adam and upon the earth, because of disobedience. The second curse came upon the ground after Cain slew his brother Abel. The third most dreadful curse from God, came upon the earth at the Flood (4SG 121). {1BC 1085.6}
The land has felt the curse, more and more heavily. Before the Flood, the first leaf which fell, and was discovered decaying upon the ground, caused those who feared God great sorrow. They mourned over it as we mourn over the loss of a dead friend. In the decaying leaf they could see an evidence of the curse, and of the decay of nature (Ibid., 155). {1BC 1085.7}
(Romans 8:22).--The sin of man has brought the sure result,--decay, deformity, and death. Today the whole world is tainted, corrupted, stricken with mortal disease. The earth groaneth under the continual transgression of the inhabitants thereof (Letter 22, Feb. 13, 1900). {1BC 1085.8}
The Lord's curse is upon the earth, upon man, upon beast, upon the fish in the sea, and as transgression becomes almost universal the curse will be permitted to become as broad and as deep as the transgression (Letter 59, 1898). {1BC 1085.9}


Now, let's start with that curse which God pronounced upon the ground for Adam and his posterity--the curse which brought so many thorns, thistles, and the like. Let's take a look at one more statement by Mrs. White about those thorns and weeds.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
When Adam and Eve transgressed the command of God, they could no longer cultivate their beautiful Eden home. They were shut out of the garden, to work among the thistles and brambles that Satan had sown. Satan told our first parents that by eating of the forbidden fruit they would have higher perceptions, and be like the angels in heaven. They believed and obeyed the words of the apostate, but they proved his words a lie. Henceforth they must work among the thorns and weeds brought by the curse. {YI, April 26, 1900 par. 4}


Now, let's look at what Mrs. White told us to do with such weeds as were brought by the curse. Do you suppose she has told us to "fulfill the curse" by planting more thorns, thistles and weeds in our gardens? Let's find out....

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
If possible, the home should be out of the city, where the children can have ground to cultivate. Let them each have a piece of ground of their own; and as you teach them how to make a garden, how to prepare the soil for seed, and the importance of keeping all the weeds pulled out, teach them also how important it is to keep unsightly, injurious practices out of the life. Teach them to keep down wrong habits as they keep down the weeds in their gardens. It will take time to teach these lessons, but it will pay, greatly pay. {CCh 148.6}

"Ye are God's husbandry" (1 Corinthians 3:9). As one takes pleasure in the cultivation of a garden, so God takes pleasure in His believing sons and daughters. A garden demands constant labor. The weeds must be removed; new plants must be set out; branches that are making too rapid development must be pruned back. So the Lord works for His garden, so He tends His plants. He cannot take pleasure in any development that does not reveal the graces of the character of Christ. The blood of Christ has made men and women God's precious charge. Then how careful should we be not to manifest too much freedom in pulling up the plants that God has placed in His garden! Some plants are so feeble that they have hardly any life, and for these the Lord has a special care. {AG 65.4}


Does "pulling the weeds" work against God's curse? Should we be planting them instead?

To me, any Christian thinking to use God's curse as an excuse for slavery is tantamount to the same Christian excusing the weeds in his garden, or worse, planting the thorns and thistles in someone else's garden, because of God's curse. To excuse or to cause slavery because of the curse is not Biblical. To acknowledge the sure results of a departure from God as evidenced by God's curse, that is Biblical. We can see the cause and effect of sin, as presented in the various curses, without feeling compelled to perpetuate sin or the curses. We do not need to be trying to fulfill these curses!

Mrs. White taught us to keep the weeds out of our gardens. Those weeds were brought by God's curse. It does not dishonor God for us to work against sin in any of its forms. God's curses are meant to help us see where we should be in relation to sin. Most people do not enjoy a curse--with good reason. That curse, then, is meant to repel us from the evil for which it was given, as opposed to being a command for us to follow and/or perpetuate the evil so that the curse may abound.

God's command to the Israelites to destroy the Canaanite nations is separate from the curse pronounced by Noah. One cannot be both a slave and dead at the same time. smile The Canaanites were not to be made bondmen--they were to be completely destroyed.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
_________________________
Ignorance is preferable to error, and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing than he who believes what is wrong. -- Thomas Jefferson
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#135224 - 07/17/11 03:04 PM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Green Cochoa]
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I’ll just skip over your Adam&Eve and Flood curse as, to me, these are red herring and straw man arguments and premises, as their implementation was naturally distinct. The fact of the matteris that curses pronounced, or allowed by God are effectuated in whatever tangible means they need to.

I’ll deal with this actually pertinent response:

Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
God's command to the Israelites to destroy the Canaanite nations is separate from the curse pronounced by Noah. One cannot be both a slave and dead at the same time. The Canaanites were not to be made bondmen--they were to be completely destroyed.


Deut 20:10-18: The Israelites were to rule over the Canaanites and that by either dispossessing them or in some cases, or if they put up a fight, completely kill them off. For those who lived in cities that were near to Israel were to be defaultly completely destroyed so as not to corrupt Israel, without this option to live and be those slaves, as the curse had ordered. If Israel had been faithful, especially in carrying out that curse (Cf. E.g., Judge 1:27-2:4 ), they would have thoroughly effectuated this curse and rid the world, according to God’s wisdom and judgement of this sinful peoples who actually went on to bring the ruin of God’s Ancient Israel. I suspect they began to have the same self-justifying “Saul-reasoning as you have here and think themselves to know better of God, indeed with such red-herring rationalizations!
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“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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#135246 - 07/18/11 10:38 AM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: NJK Project]
Rosangela Offline

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Quote:
First of all, it does not explain the clear climate and skin color correlation. I.e, hotter climates = darker skin | colder climates = lighter skin, and then there are the in between color of the Middle East peoples.

How do you explain the fact that the Eskimos of Alaska have a dark skin, although this northern region does not receive much UV radiation?
Besides, climate changes became pronounced after the flood, and it was only natural that people with a lighter skin would seek the regions with colder climates to live in.
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#135256 - 07/18/11 03:38 PM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: Rosangela]
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
How do you explain the fact that the Eskimos of Alaska have a dark skin, although this northern region does not receive much UV radiation?


Eskimos are (according to a non-Biblical, i.e., involving the Flood reality) worldview, said to be indigenous people, however I understand this to me “first there” and not actually “born there”. They migrated from somewhere. Some say from Sibera, and still those in Sibera also came from somewhere else after the Flood. So my view is that they, some time long after Flood, perhaps in the A.D./C.E. period, migrated from some “neutral” or hot, climate (e.g., India or the Persian region, etc) and then, for some geo-political reason, went as far away as possible from civilization inhabited areas. Some stopped in Sibera, other continued to the (now): Alaska Region, others to the Canadian Northern Territories and others, when probably the ice permitted it in the northern most regions of Canada, over to Greenland.

Like I said before, given the shorter lives of people then, it is not enough to trigger the body to make permanent and wholesale/generalized “protective” affectations to skin color. So they kept their neutral tan color, which I hypothesize was around Man’s original color, having been from the earth.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Besides, climate changes became pronounced after the flood,


Scientifically speaking, climate changes began to be felt in that very first year after the flood. This migration from the ark area took probably began to seriously take place from their common settlement area (Gen 11:1, 2) after the Tower of Babel which was soon after the flood (i.e., Gen 10 vs. 11). So it is from this time that I believe those extreme migrations took place and, obviously to avoid conflicts and wars, they went as far away as they could or saw adequate from each other, which was actually God’s GC grand Plan/purpose (Gen 11:6-9). Probably to avoid another Major/Flood destruction of the earth. So He also would have guided and impelled some group to live in far, even cold regions.

Originally Posted By: Rosangela
and it was only natural that people with a lighter skin would seek the regions with colder climates to live in.


As I understand it, it is only after having migrated to certain regions that skin colors began to be affected and if this is caused by a DNA recoding as it apparently could be, the change could have become most pronounced/drastic starting in a succeeding generation. I.e., the genes of the parents would have made this skin color adaptation switch, and while their own skin color would not have changed much from its original one, the ones of their offspring was quite drastic E.g, from tanned to darker or lighter. So their skin color did not affect their migrating decision or location choice.

Also being then quite remote to each other with especially non visual communications, the link between skin color and their region was probably not made any people group, perhaps even to this day (...until now, by me!?). So they would have only seen it as some unrelated natural development that their offspring were of a darker or lighter skin color.

I think the known science of skin color in tanning can allow for this hypothesis. Indeed skin color is not, at least wholly, an external “burning” one thing, but an internal “biological” one. And as I said, it may have been originally or injunctively (after the Flood) pointedly designed so by God to be able deal with the sudden change in climate caused by the flood.
_________________________
“Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.” Matt 25:45 NJK Project
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#135282 - 07/19/11 09:31 AM Re: Ellen White & Amalgamation of Man and Beast [Re: NJK Project]
Rosangela Offline

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Quote:
As I understand it, it is only after having migrated to certain regions that skin colors began to be affected and if this is caused by a DNA recoding as it apparently could be, the change could have become most pronounced/drastic starting in a succeeding generation. I.e., the genes of the parents would have made this skin color adaptation switch, and while their own skin color would not have changed much from its original one, the ones of their offspring was quite drastic E.g, from tanned to darker or lighter. So their skin color did not affect their migrating decision or location choice.

If what you are saying is true, why is it that the skin of Eskimos has not made the color adaptation and become lighter after 2000 years?
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MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!

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