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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith [Re: Rosangela] #137276
11/04/11 04:01 PM
11/04/11 04:01 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: "What we need to repent for is the unrighteousness that we taint [the righteous results of abiding in Jesus] with." Where in the Bible is this idea explained? We're warned, "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as [Jesus] is righteous." "Every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as [Jesus] is pure."

R: It is also written: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8).

I don't understand your understanding of this passage in light of the passages I posted. What do you think "have no sin" means? Must we "have sin" to have "the truth in us"? I don't get it.

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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith [Re: asygo] #137277
11/04/11 04:10 PM
11/04/11 04:10 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Imported from a different thread: I'm talking about our righteousnesses, which are wrought in us as we abide in Jesus. They are filthy rags. We are prompted and empowered by the Spirit to do God's works, but they are tainted by sin when they pass through our corrupt channels of humanity. Even though they are done in faith, they can never be of value to God unless purified by Christ's blood and merits, covering our unavoidable deficiencies.

Arnold, thank you for the thorough response to my post. I know you're busy, and the fact you took that much time to respond means a lot to me. Again, thank you. We've discussed 1 SM 344 in the past, and for some reason the discussion ended before you were able to address the following question -

Did Ellen mean to say the religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin of true believers are sinful and, therefore, require the covering blood and righteousness of Jesus to be acceptable to our heavenly Father?

You wrote, "our righteousnesses . . . are tainted by sin". What do you mean by "sin"?

Also, would you mind addressing the questions I asked Rosangela (see post above)?

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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith [Re: Mountain Man] #137282
11/04/11 07:38 PM
11/04/11 07:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Let's look at this from a practical point of view. Perhaps the following example will prove helpful. A young man finds a purse with several hundred dollars in it. He is tempted to keep the money for himself. Instead, he listens to the Holy Spirit and returns the purse to the owner. The lady thanks him profusely and he gives God all the glory.

With this story in mind - In what sense was his righteousness "tainted by sin"?

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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith [Re: Mountain Man] #137346
11/07/11 11:48 PM
11/07/11 11:48 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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He could have some traces of selfishness in his motives. Perhaps he was more concerned about doing the right thing in order not to lose his salvation than he was concerned about the good of the lady.
I gave Bible studies to a girl some months ago and I was worried about her decision. Someone told her I was worried about her, and she asked me if it was true. I told her it was, and I gave her another Bible study about the dangers of procrastination, "because," I said, "I don't want you to say at the judgment day, 'She didn't warn me about it.'" When I heard what I said, I questioned my own motives: Am I really concerned about her salvation or about mine? Am I concerned because I love her or because I love myself and don't want to be accused in the judgment day of not having done my best?

Daily review of our acts, to see whether conscience approves or condemns, is necessary for all who wish to reach perfection of Christian character. Many acts which pass for good works, even deeds of benevolence, will, when closely investigated, be found to be prompted by wrong motives. {WM 315.2}

And, by the way, this is the interpretation of the verse you quoted:

This work of purifying ourselves even as He is pure must be taken up individually. We should examine our motives, our actions, in the light of God's holy law. We should ever ask, "Is this the way of the Lord?" Every earnest, sincere seeker will be answered of the Lord. The petitions of honest inquirers are always heard by the Author of our salvation. He has promised, "The meek will he guide in judgment; and the meek will he teach his way." Angels of God are watching to see the development of our character; they are weighing moral worth; and may the great day of God reveal the fact that we have not been weighed in the balances and found wanting. {ST, May 25, 1891 par. 6}

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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith [Re: Mountain Man] #137347
11/07/11 11:52 PM
11/07/11 11:52 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Quote:
What do you think "have no sin" means?

If we say that we have no selfishness, that our motives are totally free from selfishness, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (we are lying to ourselves).

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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith [Re: Mountain Man] #137351
11/08/11 12:44 AM
11/08/11 12:44 AM
asygo  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Must we "have sin" to have "the truth in us"?

We don't need to have sin in order to have the truth. But the truth is that we have sin. If we think we have no sin, we are deceived.

One sign that Satan's delusions have lost their power is that we see our imperfection in contrast to His perfection.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith [Re: asygo] #137359
11/08/11 02:45 AM
11/08/11 02:45 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Arnold and Rosangela, I am beginning to believe you two believe born-again believers are incapable of experiencing "righteousness and true holiness". You seem to believe the fruit of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature is sinful. If so, how does it differ from other sins? And, where in the Bible does it say Jesus perfumes our sins?

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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith [Re: Mountain Man] #137370
11/08/11 07:14 PM
11/08/11 07:14 PM
asygo  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Arnold and Rosangela, I am beginning to believe you two believe born-again believers are incapable of experiencing "righteousness and true holiness".

They are capable, but only by receiving it from God. It is imputed righteousness and holiness.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
You seem to believe the fruit of abiding in Jesus and partaking of the divine nature is sinful.

I don't know if I would call it sinful, but it surely needs to be covered by Christ's righteousness in order to be acceptable to God.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
If so, how does it differ from other sins?

These sins are unavoidable, and are covered by Christ's blood if the sinner is making every effort to obey. Other sins are avoidable.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
And, where in the Bible does it say Jesus perfumes our sins?

The altar of incense, the morning and evening sacrifices.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith [Re: Mountain Man] #137371
11/08/11 07:19 PM
11/08/11 07:19 PM
asygo  Offline OP
SDA
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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Did Ellen mean to say the religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin of true believers are sinful and, therefore, require the covering blood and righteousness of Jesus to be acceptable to our heavenly Father?

That seems to be what she said. They are unacceptable to God and require Christ's covering.

Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
You wrote, "our righteousnesses . . . are tainted by sin". What do you mean by "sin"?

By "sin" I mean "selfishness" of some sort, including unknown selfishness.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Lesson #5 (4th Quarter 2011): Old Testament Faith [Re: Mountain Man] #137373
11/08/11 09:39 PM
11/08/11 09:39 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
And, where in the Bible does it say Jesus perfumes our sins?

Mike, the way you put it is hilarious.
Jesus doesn't perfume our sins, He perfumes our good works, which, although prompted by His Spirit, are tainted by our sinful (selfish) nature. Another EGW quote says:

The prayer and praise and confession of God's people ascend as sacrifices to the heavenly sanctuary. But they ascend not in spotless purity. Passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by the righteousness of the great High Priest, they are not acceptable by God. Christ gathers into the censer the prayers, the praise, and the sacrifices of his people, and with these he puts the merits of his spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the incense of Christ's propitiation, our prayers, wholly and entirely acceptable, rise before God, and gracious answers are returned. {YI, April 16, 1903 par. 12}

If these aren't sinful, why does she use the word "defiled" and says they are impure?

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