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Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #141590
04/25/12 04:21 PM
04/25/12 04:21 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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Did Jesus sin? No He didn't so he did not even deserve the first death. Jesus died both the physical and spiritual death that those resurrected in the second resurrection will die. He spent three days dying this death. First He was cut off dying the spiritual death, then He died physically, then He spent a day in the grave.

This is the three days and three nights sign of Jonah. This is the message for the wicked and adulterous generation and God is paying close attention to your response.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #141597
04/26/12 01:36 AM
04/26/12 01:36 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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James, Jesus didn't lay down His life on the Day of Atonement.

Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: Mountain Man] #141601
04/26/12 01:09 PM
04/26/12 01:09 PM
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MM, you mentioned something about the Day of Atonement more than once. I didn't see the relevance?

Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: kland] #141604
04/26/12 02:38 PM
04/26/12 02:38 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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That's the point, I suppose. It isn't relevant. That is, Jesus' death on the cross didn't occur on the Day of Atonement, the day associated with the scapegoat and the second death.

Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: Mountain Man] #141614
04/26/12 06:13 PM
04/26/12 06:13 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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Jesus didn't die on Atonement but pleads the merits of the shedding of His blood on our behalf on Atonement.

He died as the sacrifice on Passover in the court which represents His earthly ministry, then ascended to heaven and entered the Holy Place and became high priest on Pentecost, then entered the Most Holy Place on atonement to begin pleading His blood on each of our cases in the judgment. You should know this Brother.

The blood that He shed by sweating was on Passover, as was His being scourged and hung on the cross, all of the fulfillment of the literal blood sacrifices were complete in those 3 days. That is why elements of the atonement are found in the Red Heifer sacrifice and why the bodies were burned on that altar outside the eastern gate. This is to show they are connected.

The Red Heifer was a peculiar sacrifice like Melchizedek was a peculiar priest.

It was a miracle birth. It was a sign that the temple could be rebuilt. The ashes of the Red Heifer were for a cleansing from sin just as atonement was. The Heifer was burned to ashes on the same altar outside Jerusalem as the Atonement goat for the Lord. Burning to ashes illustrates that this was His hell. He didn't just slightly taste death for us, He drank the cup to the dregs.

The blood for atonement was cast to the east towards the Miphkad altar on Mt Olives and the blood for the Red Heifer was cast to the west in the direction of the temple. In other words the blood of both sacrifices were cast towards each other, like a bridge of blood, and in between was the bridge of the Red Heifer. Both trails of the blood cast by the finger fell in the direction of Gethsemane where Jesus was cut off from the Father Where our sins were upon His head.

“…Separation from His Father, the punishment for transgression and sin, was to fall upon Him in order to magnify God's law and testify to its immutability. And this was to settle forever the controversy between the Prince of God and Satan in regard to the changeless character of that law”.
EGW (2nd death)

(In Gethsemane) The disciples were suddenly aroused from their slumber by a bright light shining upon and around the Son of God. They started up in amazement, and beheld a heavenly being, clothed in garments of light, bending over their prostrate Master. With his right hand he lifted the head of the divine sufferer upon his bosom, and with his left hand he pointed toward Heaven. His voice was like the sweetest music, as he uttered soothing words presenting to the mind of Christ the grand results of the victory he had gained over the strong and wily foe. Christ was victor over Satan; and, as the result of his triumph, millions were to be victors with him in his glorified kingdom.{5Red 21.1}

He gained the victory over Satan in Gethsemane. He died the death we deserve by being cut off from the Father.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #141620
04/27/12 01:42 AM
04/27/12 01:42 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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So many important pieces of the puzzle are sewn in Gethsemane.
Mrs. White had a dream about a secret spring of water that flowed from the bottom of a stream, that was crossed by a bridge. She doesn’t mention where this bridge is, or give it a name as if it is supposed to be discovered by inspired believers who, like her, would be led to it. This spring had “Living Water” that flowed from it, as she entitled the dream…

"Living Water"; “…as we walked on, we came to a bridge over a stream of water, when he abruptly left me and plunged out of sight into the water. I was frightened; but he soon arose, holding in his hand a glass of sparkling water. He drank it, saying, "This water cures all manner of diseases." He plunged in again out of sight, brought up another glass of clear water, and as he held it up repeated the same words. I felt sad that he did not offer me some of the water. He said: "There is a secret spring in the bottom of this river which cures all manner of diseases, all who obtain it must plunge at a venture, no one can obtain it for another, each must plunge for it himself." As he drank the glass of water, I looked at his countenance. His complexion was fair and natural. He seemed to possess health and vigor. When I awoke, all my fears were dispelled…” CET Pg. 125

Well friends, if this water is so important, why would she not tell us where it is, or even the name of the bridge or stream? It is obvious that a very important message is connected to this overlooked dream of hers, and I know without shadow of a doubt, I have been led to discover it “…for the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and He will guide them to springs of living water…" Revelation 7:17.

The Prophets Jeremiah and Zechariah both prophesied about the ‘Living Water’ being the word of the LORD, but there are only TWO places in scripture that Jesus spoke directly about the living water. The first when He was talking to the Samarian woman at the well, and the last time was at the feast of tabernacles in His last year of earthly ministry. This quote from the Spirit of Prophecy mentions both of these incidents AND talks about the brook where the spring of healing water is. It’s in the chapter called…‘The Feast of Tabernacles’…

“The feast lasted one week, and during all that time the temple was a festal scene of great rejoicing. There was the pomp of the sacrificial ceremonies; and the sound of music, mingled with hosannas, made the place jubilant. At the first dawn of day, the priests sounded a long, shrill blast upon their silver trumpets; and the answering trumpets, and the glad shouts of the people from their booths, echoing over hill and valley, welcomed the festal day. Then the priest dipped from the flowing waters of the Kedron a flagon of water, and, lifting it on high, while the trumpets were sounding, he ascended the broad steps of the temple, keeping time with the music with slow and measured tread, chanting meanwhile: "Our feet shall stand within thy gates, O Jerusalem!" He bore the flagon to the altar which occupied a central position in the temple court. Here were two silver basins, with a priest standing at each one. The flagon of water was poured into one basin, and a flagon of wine into the other; and the contents of both flowed into a pipe which communicated with the Kedron, and was conducted to the Dead Sea. This display of the consecrated water represented the fountain that flowed from the rock to refresh the Hebrews in the wilderness. Then the jubilant strains rang forth: "The Lord Jehovah is my strength and song;" "therefore with joy shall we draw water out of the wells of salvation!"... The feast was drawing to a close. The morning of the last, crowning day found the people wearied from the long season of festivity. Suddenly Jesus lifted up his voice in tones that rang through the courts of the temple: "If any man thirst let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." The condition of the people made this appeal very forcible. They had been engaged in a continued scene of pomp and festivity, their eyes had been dazzled with light and color, and their ears regaled with the richest music; but there had been nothing to meet the wants of the spirit, nothing to satisfy the thirst of the soul for that which perishes not. Jesus invited them to come and drink of the fountain of life, of that which should be in them a well of water springing up into everlasting life.” The priest had that morning performed the imposing ceremony which represented the smiting of the rock in the wilderness and the issuing there from of the water. That rock was a figure of Christ. His words were the water of life. As Jesus spoke thus to the people, their hearts thrilled with a strange awe, and many were ready to exclaim, with the woman of Samaria, "Give me of this water, that I thirst not."
{Spirit of Prophecy Vol. 2 345-6}

The Brook Kedron is where the waters were taken from and re-deposited, mingled with the wine through the silver pipe. The priest had to exit the Eastern Gate of Jerusalem to get to the place where the water was taken from the Brook, the same rout Jesus took after His last supper. This place where the water was taken, is the exact same spot Jesus crossed the Brook Kedron to enter into the Garden of Gethsemane which was on a terrace immediately beneath ‘the Bridge of the Red Heifer’ on the east side of the Brook Kidron, in the Valley of Jehoshaphat, also known as the Valley of the shadow of death or Kedron, Kidron, or Cedron. This is where the ashes of all the sacrificial animals were thrown. On the Passover these waters were completely red from the blood of the sacrifices flowing into it.

The bridge Mrs. White had the dream about, where the spring of living water flowed, is the Bridge of the Red Heifer. We need to see the messages connected to Gethsemane and the Red Heifer, to discover the spring of "living water". Then we can sing "The Lord Jehovah is my strength and song;" "therefore with joy shall we draw water out of the wells of salvation!" as they did at the feast of Tabernacles.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #141634
04/27/12 03:30 PM
04/27/12 03:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Jesus didn't die on Atonement but pleads the merits of the shedding of His blood on our behalf on Atonement. He died as the sacrifice on Passover in the court which represents His earthly ministry, then ascended to heaven and entered the Holy Place and became high priest on Pentecost, then entered the Most Holy Place on atonement to begin pleading His blood on each of our cases in the judgment. You should know this Brother.

Amen! Yes, I am aware of these wonderful facts. Thank you, Jesus. As you know, the sins removed from the MHP on the Day of Atonement were placed upon the head of the scapegoat, which was then led into the wilderness to die the second death. Jesus paid our sin debt of death in the Outer Court - not in the wilderness after the Day of Atonement. It is Satan who will suffer the "full" and "final" penalty, which is the second death. Jesus experienced the bitter anguish sinners will sense in the lake of fire, but unlike the unsaved Jesus triumphed over the second death. Like the saved, Jesus got the victory over sin and the second death. Jesus symbolizes the saved - not the unsaved. It is Satan who symbolizes the unsaved and who will share their fate bearing the sins of the saved.

Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: Mountain Man] #141644
04/27/12 04:56 PM
04/27/12 04:56 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Jesus didn't die on Atonement but pleads the merits of the shedding of His blood on our behalf on Atonement. He died as the sacrifice on Passover in the court which represents His earthly ministry, then ascended to heaven and entered the Holy Place and became high priest on Pentecost, then entered the Most Holy Place on atonement to begin pleading His blood on each of our cases in the judgment. You should know this Brother.


Amen! Yes, I am aware of these wonderful facts. Thank you, Jesus. As you know, the sins removed from the MHP on the Day of Atonement were placed upon the head of the scapegoat, which was then led into the wilderness to die the second death. Jesus paid our sin debt of death in the Outer Court - not in the wilderness after the Day of Atonement. It is Satan who will suffer the "full" and "final" penalty, which is the second death. Jesus experienced the bitter anguish sinners will sense in the lake of fire, but unlike the unsaved Jesus triumphed over the second death. Like the saved, Jesus got the victory over sin and the second death. Jesus symbolizes the saved - not the unsaved. It is Satan who symbolizes the unsaved and who will share their fate bearing the sins of the saved.


Yes but in order for Jesus to secure the right to redeem anyone He had to pay the full price of their sins. He became sin for us. This gives Him the right to transfer the sins upon Satan and that is why Satan tried so hard to discourage Jesus in Gethsemane. You're getting very close to the truth here.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #141646
04/27/12 05:51 PM
04/27/12 05:51 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
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I saw the nominal church and nominal Adventists, like Judas, would betray us to the Catholics to obtain their influence to come against the truth. The saints then will be an obscure people, little known to the Catholics; but the churches and nominal Adventists who know of our faith and customs (for they hated us on account of the Sabbath, for they could not refute it) will betray the saints and report them to the Catholics as those who disregard the institutions of the people; that is, that they keep the Sabbath and disregard Sunday. {SpM 1.5}
Then the Catholics bid the Protestants to go forward, and issue a decree that all who will not observe the first day of the week, instead of the seventh day, shall be slain. And the Catholics, whose numbers are large, will stand by the Protestants. The Catholics will give their power to the image of the beast. And the Protestants will work as their mother worked before them to destroy the saints. But before their decree bring or bear fruit, the saints will be delivered by the Voice of God. Then I saw that Jesus’ work in the sanctuary will soon be finished. And after His work there is finished, He will come to the door of the first apartment, and confess the sins of Israel upon the head of the Scape Goat. Then He will put on the garments of vengeance. Then the plagues will come upon the wicked, and they do not come till Jesus puts on that garment, and takes His place upon the great white cloud. Then while the plagues are falling, the Scape Goat is being led away. He makes a mighty struggle to escape, but he is held fast by the hand that leads him. If he should effect his escape, Israel would lose their lives. I saw that it would take time to lead away the Scape Goat into the land of forgetfulness after the sins were put on his head. {SpM 2.1}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Jesus died our Second death. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #141705
04/28/12 09:23 PM
04/28/12 09:23 PM
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Charity  Offline
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MM, why make the distinction between Christ being destroyed in the lake of fire and the agonizing death He endured for us. Isn't the important point that His suffering was great beyond measure and his life blood was pour out for us - that it was a complete, perfect, infinite sacrifice for finite, polluted man?

The love that motivated the sacrifice was infinite so the sacrifice itself is on the same scale - infinite. And if it was infinite, why suggest that it lacked anything - like the lake of fire or any other kind of annihilation. The separation of Christ from the Father was complete and caused His death. His tender suffering on our behalf is a unique, one-off event - the water-shed divide of not only the history of this sinful world but the great divide of the history of the universe; In one sense it's like a black hole from which no light escapes - we can only partly fathom it. But in a greater sense it's like the creation of the universe when the Father and the Son commanded the light to shine out of darkness; that is from the greatest darkness - the separation of Christ from the Father for our sakes - comes the brightest light.

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