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Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: jamesonofthunder] #143976
07/05/12 03:50 AM
07/05/12 03:50 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Oh yeah, Seriously, don't forget to pray that our flight does not have to be in winter!

(since the majority effected by winter are in the northern hemisphere, pray for when we have to leave our homes that it be in our summer.)


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: jamesonofthunder] #143978
07/05/12 06:04 PM
07/05/12 06:04 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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In case no one got it, Jesus said we should pray that our flight is not in winter, so this period of time could not possibly be longer than a season, not three and a half years.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: jamesonofthunder] #143982
07/05/12 06:26 PM
07/05/12 06:26 PM
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Did you just say the 144 thousand (or the majority of them) will only exist in the northern hemisphere?

Regarding only the 1 hour left, could you look at Revelation 12, look at the sequence and see if it is talking only about the past or the future, too?

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: kland] #143994
07/06/12 04:04 PM
07/06/12 04:04 PM
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And in Revelation 13, look at the sequence after the head was wounded and then healed. Even if you were to think the head was a recent individual pope, the time prophecy would still be future, right?

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: kland] #143997
07/06/12 09:54 PM
07/06/12 09:54 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Did you just say the 144 thousand (or the majority of them) will only exist in the northern hemisphere?

Regarding only the 1 hour left, could you look at Revelation 12, look at the sequence and see if it is talking only about the past or the future, too?


Sorry if it sounded like that Brother Kland.

No, the majority of people who are affected by winter are in the Northern Hemisphere, so we should pray that our (the remnants) flight (when the Sunday law is passed) is in the summer for the Northern Hemisphere. Not that the 144,000 are from the Northern Hemisphere.

The intent was to draw attention to that prophecy from Jesus (Matt 24:20), showing that this time to leave our homes does not take more than a season, not 3 1/2 years.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: kland] #143998
07/06/12 10:20 PM
07/06/12 10:20 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
And in Revelation 13, look at the sequence after the head was wounded and then healed. Even if you were to think the head was a recent individual pope, the time prophecy would still be future, right?


The head wound was in 1798 when General Berthier took the pope hostage and he died in exile.

“Power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.” And, says the prophet, “I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death.” And again: “He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.” The forty and two months are the same as the “time and times and the dividing of time,” three years and a half, or 1260 days, of Daniel 7 - - the time during which the papal power was to oppress God’s people. This period, as stated in preceding chapters, began with the supremacy of the papacy, A.D. 538, and terminated in 1798. At that time the pope was made captive by the French army, the papal power received its deadly wound, and the prediction was fulfilled, “He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity.” {GC 439.2}

There are three phases to the Roman beast.

Rev 12 deals with the Pagan Roman phase.

Rev 13 mainly deals with the Papal Roman beast during the 1260 years of the dark ages, but it also covers a little of this same beast after the head wound was healed in 1929. This shows that the next beast of Rev 17 is this same beast resurrected.

Rev 17 is the third phase of the beast after the head wound is healed, then the image to the beast is erected during the time of the eighth king, Satan appearing as a messenger from god.

The seven heads are symbolic on the first two phases, pointing forward to the third phase where the last seven Papal kings reign. The second phase (rev 13) shows that the heads are Popes, because the one who was led into exile was the papal head of the fallen church.

That afternoon Elder Bourdeau had us accompany him to the Cathedral in Valence, France and look upon the bust of Pius VI who was noted in prophecy, who was led into captivity and died in captivity. Here was the one marked in history who received the deadly wound. His heart is encased in the marble monument beneath where the bust is located. We felt rather solemn as we looked upon the monument of this man noted in prophecy.—Letter 110, 1886, p. 2. (To W. C. White and wife, November 4, 1886.) {8MR 354.1}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: kland] #144015
07/07/12 11:02 PM
07/07/12 11:02 PM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Regarding only the 1 hour left, could you look at Revelation 12, look at the sequence and see if it is talking only about the past or the future, too?
And in Revelation 13, look at the sequence after the head was wounded and then healed. Even if you were to think the head was a recent individual pope, the time prophecy would still be future, right?


Trying to impose the way the western mind understands sequence on the book of Revelation distorts the meaning of the passage.

You will find the author often states the RESULT first and then adds details, restates the result and then adds more details, moves on to the next RESULT and then adds details leading up to that result and so on.

Revelation 12 is a great example --

I starts with the beginning of the Christian church, Christ is born, and the devil (the dragon) is out to destroy Christ and his church.

VS 4 then jumps back to give a detail --
The devil took a third of the angels with him out of heaven.

VS 5 returns to the account of the devil who is out to destroy Christ and his church at its beginnings.
But the next verse assures us that Christ returned to heaven and the true church fled to the wilderness for 1260 years.

VS 7-11 connects us with vs 4 once more to tell us that the battle which began in heaven centuries earlier reached a decisive victory at the cross when salvation came to mankind, and people could overcome the dragon by the blood of the lamb.

VS 12 Even though this was a great victory the dragon is furious.

VS 13-16 Portrays the church as it is faced with the dragons fury. Persecuted and in hiding for 1260 years and finally fleeing to new territory (America) for religious freedom.

VS 17- Predicts the dragons last assault on the woman.


Chapter 12 shows the "dragon's" role
Chapter 13 goes over the same material but now focusing on the human elements that the dragon works through.

A beast after the likeness of the dragon arises with all the characteristics of Daniel 7's beasts. -- This is the beast the dragon uses to destroy the church during the church age. It takes for itself the worship due to God.

But before going on the Revelator assures us in VS 3 that this beast would suffer a severe set back (fatal wound and it will seem like it is dead) but don't relax because it will come back with a vengence and have even greater power than before.

VS 5 Takes us back to the beginning of the growing beasts power. It is he that drives the church into the wilderness those 1260 years-- we have the example of this beasts methods.
Surely people won't give him the power again?
And we can only marvel as we read that same power growing to world wide porportions and how the second beast (America, who once sheltered the persecuted) unites with the beast in setting up his image.




Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: dedication] #144016
07/07/12 11:25 PM
07/07/12 11:25 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Very well put dedication. I was speaking in general terms but this is more specific.

James White was first to use the "phases" of the beast and it is also a very powerful way of presenting this message. Here is the quote from "Life Incidents"

Quote:
THE THIRD MESSAGE.

"And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb; and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up forever and ever; and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus." Rev. xiv, 9-12.

This is the most solemn warning that the Bible contains. As the pen of inspiration has recorded this language* for our instruction, it will he wise for us to listen and obey. It is certain that church history presents no testimony that this message has been heard in the past. And the fact that the first and second angels of this series apply to the present generation, most clearly establishes the point that this message does not belong to past ages. Said J. V. Himes, in 1847: "But the fourteenth chapter [of Rev.] presents an astounding cry, yet to be made, as a warning to mankind in that hour of strong temptation. Verses 9-11. A denunciation of wrath so dreadful cannot be found in the book of God, besides this. Does it not imply a strong temptation, to require so terrific an admonition 1"

It is proper that I should here notice three symbols employed in this message, namely, the beast, his image and his mark, and call attention to four other distinct points embraced by it. These are, the patience of the saints, the commandments of God, the faith of Jesus, and the penalty threatened.

1. The Beast. The familiar manner in which the Beast, the Image, and the Mark, are introduced in this message, shows that they are symbols which are elsewhere explained in the prophetic word; for when a symbol is first introduced into prophecy, specifications and particulars are given sufficient to lead the humble seeker after truth to an understanding of it. We find no such particulars in this message respecting the symbols here introduced, and therefore look for them in other portions of the book of Revelation. In chapter 13:1, and onward, we find a power introduced under the symbol and name of " a beast." The time and manner of its use is given, its characteristics are pointed out, its work is described, the time of its duration is stated, and the termination of its career is foretold. That this is the beast mentioned in the third message is certain; for it is the only symbol in the book of Revelation which bears the unqualified title of " the beast." In verse 11 of chapter 13, another beast is introduced, but after being once named as another beast, it is ever after designated by the pronoun he. This other beast makes an image to the first beast, and causes all to receive the mark of that beast. No other image or mark as pertaining to any beast are anywhere introduced; hence these are the ones referred to in the third message. Therefore the symbols before us are all described in chapter xiii.

We now inquire, What power is represented by the beast? To learn this, we go still further back, to chapter 12, where we find a power symbolized by a great red dragon, which is the one next preceding the beast of chapter 13. The seven heads and ten horns upon both of these symbols, show that they represent two phases of the same power. By universal consent of Protestant expositors, the- great red dragon is considered a representative of Pagan Rome. The next phase presented by Rome after the Pagan form was the Papal. Rome Papal succeeded Rome Pagan. The dragon gave his seat, power, and great authority to the beast. Hence the beast can represent none other but Papal Rome.

This is further shown by the identity that exists between this beast and the little horn of Dan. vii, 8, 19-26, which Protestant commentators all agree is a symbol of the Papacy. If the reader will compare carefully the verses referred to in Dan. 7, with Rev. 13: 1-10, he will see, 1. That both these powers are blasphemous powers, speaking great words and blasphemies against God. 2. That they both make war with the saints, and prevail against, or overcome them. 3. That they both have a mouth speaking great things. 4. That they both succeed the Pagan form of the Roman empire. 5. That they both continue a time, times, and dividing of time, or 1260 years. 6. That both at the end of the specified period lose their dominion. Now here are points that prove identity j for when we have in prophecy two symbols, as in this instance, representing powers that come upon the stage of action at the same time, occupy the same territory, maintain the same character, do the same work, exist the same length of time, and at the end of that time meet the same fate, those symbols represent the same identical power. Now all these particulars do apply alike to the little horn of Dan. vii, and the beast of Rev. xiii, conclusively showing that they both represent the same power. No more need here be said to show that the beast is the Papacy. Those who wish to pursue the argument more at length, will find it presented in works published at the Review Office.


Well it must be obvious that if the Seven heads and Ten horns on the beast of Rev 12 & 13 show these beasts are different phases of the same power then it should be abundantly obvious that the seven headed ten horned beast of Rev 17 should be the next phase of this same power.

Mr White was in a dispute over this issue with Uriah Smith, and Mrs White told James not to address this issue publicly because it is an issue for the end times and it would divide the church. That is why the seven headed beast of Rev 17 is not mentioned here.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: dedication] #144043
07/09/12 09:57 AM
07/09/12 09:57 AM
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Charity  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Chapter 12 shows the "dragon's" role
Chapter 13 goes over the same material but now focusing on the human elements that the dragon works through.
Dedication, you have a point regarding the time periods being the same or similar in chapters 12 and 13 but from different perspectives. Do you apply the same line of reasoning to chapter 17? If so what different elements are covered there? Is the time synchronization the same?

Re: No Prophetic Time after 1844 [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144049
07/09/12 05:45 PM
07/09/12 05:45 PM
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kland  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: kland
Did you just say the 144 thousand (or the majority of them) will only exist in the northern hemisphere?

Regarding only the 1 hour left, could you look at Revelation 12, look at the sequence and see if it is talking only about the past or the future, too?


Sorry if it sounded like that Brother Kland.

No, the majority of people who are affected by winter are in the Northern Hemisphere, so we should pray that our (the remnants) flight (when the Sunday law is passed) is in the summer for the Northern Hemisphere. Not that the 144,000 are from the Northern Hemisphere.

The intent was to draw attention to that prophecy from Jesus (Matt 24:20), showing that this time to leave our homes does not take more than a season, not 3 1/2 years.


Quote:
No, the majority of people who are affected by winter are in the Northern Hemisphere,
This is what I'm trying to say, I've never heard of such a thing, unless you are saying the majority of the people are in the Northern Hemisphere and therefore the 144K. But, if you are talking about climate, what makes you think the Southern Hemisphere winters are a lot less sever than Northern? But, I notice that you aren't talking about severity, but "affected" by winter, so what about the Southern Hemisphere do you not think causes winter?

Regarding the bit about not more than a season, Jesus not only said to pray that our flight not be in winter, but also not on the Sabbath. Do you imply that this time to leave our homes not only does not take 3 1/2 years, but also does not take 7 days? That sounds more in line with MM's idea.

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