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The Pre-incarnate Christ #144291
07/29/12 10:29 AM
07/29/12 10:29 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
The Bible has it all there but we must prayerfully look and ask Gods help to understand to fully grasp the nature of Christ.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon His shoulder. and His name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."

How can we understand this, the mystery of the pre-incarnate Jesus Christ, come in the flesh, and how a mere child, born like other children, could also be "The everlasting Father."

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

The pre-existence of Christ or personal existence of Christ before his conception is shown in the Bible, but the Holy Ghost has to guide us. For some reason, this concept of Christ pre-incarnate or the pre-existence of Christ is very controversial, as people somewhat get confused with the "Title" which refers to Jesus or how He is shown such as the "First and the Last", the "Alpha and Omega" the "Holy One", the "Angel of the Lord". Now we must be clear, Jesus is NOT a created Angel. He is fully Man, fully God, the Messiah, the Christ, and Lord and Saviour. Jesus is Eternal. Jesus was never created. Jesus is Eternal as the Father and Holy Spirit are Eternal. Jesus has always been and always will be and scripture shows existed before He became the earthly child of Mary.

Let us begin with the birth of Christ and we see in Matthew one of the titles, 'God with us'.

Matthew 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Just as the prophecy in scripture fortold that from the house of David he would come of a virgin birth......
Isaiah 7:14
Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Here it is clear that Christ is God, but immediatly we are posed with a question that must be answered.
Did the Father create or "procreate" another "God?" If He did, This would mean it would be a sin to worship Jesus, because it would violate the first commandment!
“Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” Isaiah 43:10
The first commandment says,
"Thou shalt have no other gods before Me."
On two different occasions John was inclined to worship an angel. He was told by the angel, "See thou do it not: I am a fellow servant, and of they brethren that have the testimony of Jesus." (Revelation 19:10)
Worship of a creature was clearly prohibited in the Bible. Worship of the Creator was another matter and we see it time and time again that Jesus accepted worship and was worthy to be worshipped. Of the Canaanite woman it was said, "Then came she and worshipped Him..." (Matthew 15:25). When Thomas recognized Him as the risen Christ he said, "My Lord and my God." (John 20:28), and the four and twenty elders give worship to the Creator, "Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created."

Now in the resurrection the Bible tells us that men that are saved are equal to angels.“ Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.”(Luke 20:36 ) Jesus was not equal to the angels He was equal to God, scripture repeatedly shows us this.

“ Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:”(Php 2:6)
If we look further to the context in Philippians 2:5-8, we understand clearly what Paul is saying:

Talking of Jesus Christ, . . .who being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.

Clearly, Paul shows that he believes that Jesus had existed as a divine Being before His birth, and that He volunteered to divest Himself of much of His glory, power, and prerogatives to become a lowly human being and to die to redeem humanity from its sins. Then we see the following in Hebrews which shows of Christ, 'angels of God worship him' and God says to the Son or Christ, 'Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever', so scripture lays out the path that the Holy Ghost can guide us into understanding.

“4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. 5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? 6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. 7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. 8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.”(Heb 1:4-8 AV).

So you have to look at this issue of worship first, as God alone is entitled to supreme reverence and worship and man is forbidden to give to any other object the first place in his affections or his service or worship. So to worship any other is a sin, but then we have the mystery of the Godhead as Christ was not brought into existence, rather He always existed as one with the Father. We see Christ as the Creator, as Jehovah, as the Great I AM, and appeared in different ways more than fifty times in the Old Testament before coming as flesh in the New Testament.

For any creature to claim the right to be worshipped is blaspheme. In fact the Jews falsely accused Jesus of this.“ The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.”(John 10:33 ) Notice these scriptures that show Jesus was worshipped.

Matthew 2:11 And when they were come into the house, they saw the young child with Mary his mother, and fell down, and worshipped him: and when they had opened their treasures, they presented unto him gifts; gold, and frankincense and myrrh.

Matthew 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.

Matthew 9:18 While he spake these things unto them, behold, there came a certain ruler, and worshipped him, saying, My daughter is even now dead: but come and lay thy hand upon her, and she shall live.

Matthew 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the Son of God.

Matthew 15:25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.

Matthew 28:9 And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.

Matthew 28:17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

Mark 5:6 But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

Luke 24:52 And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:

John 9:38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

Rev 5:14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Then we have Jesus Himself showing us how He existed prior to the Incarnation and His role, it was not hidden, it is right there in the Bible. Speaking to the Jews, Jesus told them:

John 8:56
Your father Abraham rejoiced to see MY day: and he saw it, and was glad.

The Jews were absolutely amazed at what Jesus sad, because Jesus was only in His early thirties, they could not ponder how He possibly have been alive in Abraham’s day, so they reacted.

John 8:57-58
57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM.

The Jews understood what was being declared, Jesus equating Himself with the eternal “I AM.” Verse 59 says,

“Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him…”

Jesus was directly and actively involved in the creation of man. Indeed you find in Genesis, God said...

“Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness…” (Genesis 1:26)

Then there is a prediction of Christ’s redemptive work on the cross in Genesis 3:15 :
“And I will put enmity between you (the serpent) and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise you on the head, and you shall bruise Him on the heel.”

Christ was there at the beginning, from eternity, but there is more so lets continue the study...

Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: Rick H] #144292
07/29/12 10:31 AM
07/29/12 10:31 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
The preincarnate existence of Christ, and His preincarnate works, is important for several reasons. First, His preexistence is a necessary attribute to show who He was when He came as flesh. If Christ did not exist prior to His incarnation, then He cannot be God. Second, it is important that we have a firm understanding of the preincarnate Christ in order to discern what is false doctrine and what is the truth. Third, it gives the Christian a tremendous suriety in whom their faith is and the Bible. So it is essential that the preexistence of Christ be proven in order to prove His deity. Jesus is the angel of the LORD, the angel of God, the Archangel Michael, Jehovah who appeared time and again in the Old Testament to speak directly to His people, prior to the incarnation.

But then there is a second issue that presents itself, the Lord Himself told Moses that man could not be before the awesome glory that is God. Moses had asked to see God's glory as He was told in in Exodus 33 verse 20, "20But He said, "You cannot see My face; for no man shall see Me, and live." This awesome glory presented a problem. If men could not live after seeing Him then how could Christ interact with mankind and as the Bible says no man has ever seen God the Father. The Father is spirit. No one has ever seen His face. We first have the appearance of God walking in the garden in the story of Adam and Eve in Genesis 3:8, but this was after sin so they would have died if they had come before God. But the fact is that God has been seen by men! Enoch and Noah both "walked with God" (Genesis 5:24; 6:9)Then you have 'the Lord' appearing to Abraham in Genesis 18 as he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day, and we know the many sins of Abraham, but yet he lived. So who have they seen?

So we have to see how scripture clues us in, and the answer was that God placed Himself in veiled form when He came to the people, and it was Jesus Christ in preincarnate appearances. So, how can we know this, that Jesus existed before His incarnation? Well, In Isaiah 6, Isaiah goes to the Temple to mourn the death of his king, and when Isaiah goes there he suddenly sees the King of Kings and Lord of Lords lifted up high and glorious in the Temple as the angels cry 'Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory'. Ezekiel also saw that "upon the likeness of the throne was the likeness as the appearance of a man upon it.... This was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD (Ezekiel 1:26,28). Then, over in the New Testament, we are told that when Isaiah saw the Lord lifted up high and holy he saw Jesus Christ. John 12:41 tells us that what Isaiah saw was Jesus in "His glory" — the glory He had before He became incarnate (Philippians 2:5-8).

Looking back at Abraham with the three men that visited him while he was at the tent door we find first, that the leader talked with Abraham. Then He inquired about Sarah and made a promise:
Genesis 18
"9 And they said unto him, Where is Sarah thy wife? And he said, Behold, in the tent.
10 And he said, I will certainly return unto thee according to the time of life; and, lo, Sarah thy wife shall have a son. And Sarah heard it in the tent door, which was behind him
a promise to Abraham. 11 Now Abraham and Sarah were old and well stricken in age; and it ceased to be with Sarah after the manner of women.
12 Therefore Sarah laughed within herself, saying, After I am waxed old shall I have pleasure, my lord being old also?"

Later, in Genesis 21:1-2, we are told who the leader is.

“1And the Lord visited Sarah as he had said, and the Lord did unto Sarah as he had spoken.
2 For Sarah conceived, and bare Abraham a son in his old age, at the set time of which God had spoken to him..”

The One who spoke with Abraham at the tent, was the Lord Himself. But, because of her old age, Sarah had doubted and laughed at the Lord’s promise. The Lord makes a clear promise with a time line in Genesis 18 and fulfilled in Genesis 21, here is His promise.

“Is anything too difficult for the Lord? At the appointed time I will return to you, at this time next year, and Sarah shall have a son” (Genesis 18:14).

In Genesis 18:10, the central figure or leader of the men promised to return a year later. But, in verse 14, it makes it clear it is the Lord and He promised to return a year later. The leader and the Lord are one and he same. Now take a look at this...

“Then the men rose up from there and looked down toward Sodom; and Abraham was walking with them to send them off. And the Lord said, ‘Shall I hide from Abraham what I am about to do…’”(Genesis 18:16-17)

Abraham was walking with the three men in the direction of Sodom when the leader (the Lord) spoke to him.

“Then the men turned away from there and went toward Sodom, while Abraham was still standing before the Lord” (v.22).

There seems to be a problem. If the three men left for Sodom and the Lord remained with Abraham, is the Lord now appearing as a fourth person? Our answer is found in the first part of Genesis 19:1.

“Now the two angels came to Sodom…”

If two angels went to Sodom, then the third angel (or man) remained with Abraham. The third angel was the Preincarnate Son of God. Jesus did see Abraham as He declared in John 8:56-58.

Then in Genesis 32:24-32 we find Jacob wrestling with a man all night, but it is not just a man. The passage does not tell us directly, but Jacob records that he recognized who it was. Jacob told this man that he would not let him go until he blessed him. The man asked him what his name was and Jacob told him. The man then said in Genesis 32:28 “Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed.” This passage directly says that it was God that Jacob wrestled with all night.

The interesting part of the story is that Jacob clearly lets us know he recognized who he was wrestling with. He tells us in Genesis 32:30 : “So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

We also read that Christ in preincarnate also appears as what is called "the Angel of the Lord." That doesn't mean that Jesus is an angel, rather it means He is God's angel. This term means Jesus is a messenger of the Lord as angel means "messenger."

When Moses saw the burning bush, God spoke to him out of the burning bush and told him take his shoes off as that was holy ground. The next verse says, "And who spoke to him was the Angel of the Lord." (Exodus 3:2) Who was the angel? He clearly identifies Himself in these words:

"Moreover he said, I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God." (Exodus 3:6)

We also see, "the Angel of the Lord" who found Hagar by a fountain of water in the wilderness (Genesis 16:7), told her to return to her mistress (verse 8), and promised her that her seed would be multiplied (verse 11). Who was this angel, the Bible tells us.

"And she called the name of the Lord that spake to her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?" (Genesis 6:13)

The angel is identified as the "Lord" and "God", but lets go on. When Abraham was about to slay his son, "the angel of the Lord" called to him.

"And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time, And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son...." (Genesis 22:15, 16)

Judges 6:22 records, "When Gideon realized that it was the Angel of the Lord he exclaimed, 'O sovereign Lord, I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face,' but the Lord said to him, 'Peace do not be afraid you are not going to die.'" Gideon saw God incarnate, Jesus as the Angel of the Lord.

We also see the Angel of the Lord as the Preincarnate Son of God in Judges 13. It tells us that the Angel of the Lord appeared to Manoab’s wife and promised her that she would conceive and give birth to a son. He gives the instructions for the son who is Samson, note what He says about the child being a Nazarite from the womb:
"3 And the angel of the Lord appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not: but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son.
4 Now therefore beware, I pray thee, and drink not wine nor strong drink, and eat not any unclean thing:
5 For, lo, thou shalt conceive, and bear a son; and no razor shall come on his head: for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb: and he shall begin to deliver Israel out of the hand of the Philistines.
6 Then the woman came and told her husband, saying, A man of God came unto me, and his countenance was like the countenance of an angel of God, very terrible: but I asked him not whence he was, neither told he me his name:"

The Angel of the Lord appeared a second time to Manoah’s wife and she immediately called her husband.

“15 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, I pray thee, let us detain thee, until we shall have made ready a kid for thee.
16 And the angel of the Lord said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread: and if thou wilt offer a burnt offering, thou must offer it unto the Lord. For Manoah knew not that he was an angel of the Lord."

Burnt offerings are to be presented to God only, and we see it was the Angel of the Lord.

Then what Manoab asks and the answer which is very interesting...
"17 And Manoah said unto the angel of the Lord, What is thy name, that when thy sayings come to pass we may do thee honour?
18 And the angel of the Lord said unto him, Why askest thou thus after my name, seeing it is secret?"

Then the Angle of the Lord performed the wonders as described in verse 19 and 20:

“19... and the angel did wonderously; and Manoah and his wife looked on.20 For it came about when the flame went up from the altar toward heaven, that the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar. When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground.”

So Manoah and his wife fell on their faces in worship to Him, and we know only God can be worshipped, but now Manoah tells us who the Angel of the Lord who performed wonders is.

“Now the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah or his wife. Then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord (i.e. Deity). So Manoah said to his wife, ‘We shall surely die, foe we have seen God’” (vv. 21-22).

We also have the 'Son of God' appear and walk in the fiery furnace with Daniels three friends.
Daniel 3:23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Then In his sermon just before martyrdom, Stephen identifies the One that appeared to Moses.

"This is that Moses, which said unto the children of Israel, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear. This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sinai, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us. (Acts 7:37, 38)

The Angel of Jehovah is the One who appeared to Moses in the burning bush, whose name was "I Am." In the New Testament Christ identifies Himself as the great "I Am." (John 8:58)

Exodus 3 13 And Moses said unto God, Behold, when I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What is his name? what shall I say unto them? 14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

John 8 56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. 57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. 59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Jesus Christ himself was telling the Jews that He was the angel in the burning bush speaking to Moses, and therefore was God. This the Jews understood, which is why they picked up rocks to stone him. It was the angel of the Lord within the burning bush who applied the title of I AM to himself, Christ applied the same title to himself.

This Angel of the Lord that appeared was the pre-incarnate Christ, and shown as the Lord. But Christ is clealy not a created angelic being. The divinity of Christ is clearly spelled out in Scriptures. Hebrew the first chapter clearly differentiates between Jesus and those supernatural beings called angels.

"Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they". (Hebrews 1:4)

Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: Rick H] #144293
07/29/12 10:32 AM
07/29/12 10:32 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
We find In many places in the Old Testament it refers to the evelasting attribute of God, we see this with Abraham when he called upon the Lord.

Genesis 21:33
And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.

God is constantly refered to and His protection, and law, in the Bible but most importantly, His existence is shown as eternal.

Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

Proverbs 8:23
I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

Then we see how the prophecy of Christ as the Messiah describe Him as everlasting and points to His existence from eternity past.

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
And many verses confirme the everlasting God as the Creator.

Isaiah 40:28
Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding

Then prophecy states that Messiah would come from Bethlehem, and He is described as He "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."

Micah 5:2
But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

This states not only His preexistence but the fact that He has existed from eternity. So then we look at the appearance of God in a physical form and see that it was none other than Christ Himself. If He appeared before His incarnation, then He obviously existed before His incarnation.

In John 1:14, it is written that "the Word became flesh." Now that He became flesh implies that He was not always flesh, i.e., that He existed before His incarnation. In John 3:13, Jesus said that He came down from heaven. Mortal men do not come down from heaven! This implies a previous existence. In John 17:18, we see that the Father sent Him into the world. In Hebrews 2:14 we read that He partook of flesh and blood. All of these things imply that He existed prior to His incarnation.

As we have seen, Christ as the angel of the Lord appears on numerous occasions throughout the Old Testament. And yet it is clear that He is something more than other angels.The Angel of the LORD is often identified as Jehovah.

While the Angel of the LORD is identified as Jehovah, He is also distinguished from Jehovah. In Gen. 24:7, we read of Jehovah sending his angel. Zech. 1:12-13 is the clearest revelation of the distinction, for there we see the Angel of the LORD speaking with Jehovah.
So scripture presents that the Angel of the LORD is identified as Jehovah and yet distinct from Him. This would mean that He is one of the members of the Godhead.
Here are reasons why the Angel of the LORD should be identified as the second person of the Godhead.

First, the second person is the visible God of the New Testament. The Father has been heard, but never seen. The Spirit has been seen only in the form of a dove, and only in one instance. But Christ, indwelt by the fullness of the Godhead, walked among men, visible and touchable. It therefore seems logical to conclude that the Angel of the LORD would be the second person of the Godhead.

Second, the Angel of the LORD no longer appears after the incarnation of Christ. It seems logical to conclude that the reason why He appears no longer is because in the New Testament He appears as the incarnate Christ.

Third, both the Angel of the LORD and Jesus Christ were sent by the Father. In the Trinitarian relationship, it is the Father Who sends the other two persons.

Fourth, the Angel of the LORD could not be either the Father or the Spirit. He could not be the Father because John 1:18 tells us that "No man hath seen God at any time." He could not be the Spirit, since the Spirit is immaterial. Therefore, He must be the Son. Some of these same arguments apply to the other theophanies which scripture gives us.

We go back to Genesis 18, to look at the three men that appear to Abraham. It is apparent that one of them is Jehovah (the other two are probably angels), since the text actually says so (v. 13). Furthermore, He knows of Sarah's laughter within herself, and we see Abraham praying to Him. Like the Angel of the LORD, this is a physical manifestation of Jehovah, and must therefore be a preincarnate appearance of Christ.

In Joshua 5:13-15, we read of a man whom Joshua meets near Jericho. The man identified Himself as "captain of the host of the LORD." He accepted Joshua's worship, and told Joshua to remove his shoes because he was on holy ground, just as Moses had to do when the Angel of the LORD spoke to him from the burning bush (Ex. 3). This demonstrates the deity of the Captain, which leads us to the conclusion that this is another preincarnate appearance of Christ. As the Angel of the LORD, He stopped Abraham when He was about to slay Issac. Also as the Angel of the LORD, He stood between the camp of Egypt and that of Israel while the Red Sea was parting. He was with Israel in the wilderness, and provided water from out of a rock on two occasions (Ex. 17, Num. 20, cp. I Cor. 10:4). Christ, in the form of a cloud by day and a pillar of fire by night, guided the children of Israel in the wilderness.

The scripture in the New Testament also has direct assertions of Christ's preexistence. The first is John 1:1-4,14. In v.1 we read, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." It was later that "the Word became flesh (v. 14)." If the Word was with God before He became flesh, than He obviously existed before His incarnation. The second is John 6:33-62. There is no need to examine this whole passage. For our purposes, it will suffice just to look at v. 62, where Jesus said to His disciples, "What if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?" The third is John 8:58, where Jesus said to the Jews, "Before Abraham was, I am." Jesus is obviously stating here that He existed before Abraham. The fourth is John 17:5, where Jesus was praying to the Father and said, "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." This, too, is an obvious assertion of Christ's preexistence. The fifth is Phil. 2:6, where Paul, speaking of our Lord, says, "Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God." This passage is one of the most difficult to interpret, but for our purposes all we need see is that there was a time, before He took on the form of a man, that Christ existed in the form of God. This, too, is an obvious assertion of Christ's preexistence.

Christ's works as scripture shows, include Creation, the preservation of the universe, and the sustaining of the children of Israel in the wilderness. In order for Christ to have done these things, which happened prior to His incarnation, He had to have existed. Christ's work in creation is plainly revealed in the New Testament. In John 1:3 we read, "All things were made by him, and without him was not anything made that was made." In Col. 1:16, we read, "By him were all things created," and in Hebrews 1:10 "And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:"

Therefore, His work in creation is obvious, compare this with Psalm 102:25
"Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands."
He is the Creator.

So we begin to understand, that whenever the omnipresent, invisible God has deigned to appear to men, He has done so in the person of His eternal Son, who is "the image of the invisible God" (Colossians 1:15).Since the Son is, indeed, "in the form of God—equal with God" (Philippians 2:6), He is omnipotent and thus shows Himself as an angel or a man or even a burning bush. Christ was involved, even before His incarnation, with man's salvation. Scripture does not give us a great amount of detail as to the nature of His saving ministry before the incarnation, but we are told in 2 Cor. 5:19 that "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them."

On the basis of the evidence from both Old and New Testaments, anybody who honors the testimony of Scripture must conclude that Jesus Christ has existed from "the beginning" along with God the Father, and is included in the Godhead. The doctrine of the eternity of Christ is most important as if Christ was not eternal, then He came into existence in time and is a created being and vastly different in being and attributes from God Himself. If Christ is eternal, it is affirming that He has no dependence upon another for His existence, that He is in fact self-existent, which is what I accept and believe. Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God, divine, infinite and omnipotent, in union and oneness with the Father. He is the Logos or Word, and before men or angels were created, the Word was with God, and was God, King of Kings, our Lord and Saviour.

Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: Rick H] #144294
07/29/12 10:37 AM
07/29/12 10:37 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Now lets look at Christ as the Archangel Michael in scripture, which as Adventist we need firmly believe so I will go over ground I have gone over previously. The Greek word archaggelos is compounded from archi, a prefix denoting "chief" and the word aggelos, "messenger." He is the chief messenger. He is not an angel, but rather the commander of angels. In the ancient hebrew language names had meaning, often prophetic in nature. In Hebrew the name Michael (Mee-kah-el) means "who is God-like" and just as Immanuel means "God in the flesh/ God with us" and given unto Jesus the Christ, he name "Michael" clealy means 'Who is like God'.

Michael is just another "Title" to refer to Jesus just as Lamb and Lion is. Michael is not a created Angel. Michael the Archangel is only a name or title, but it shows us that Christ has always been there with the Father implementing the plan of salvation. Lets begin with this study from my friend Amo on this...
'The earlier Protestant scholars usually identified Michael with the preincarnate Christ, finding support for their view, not only in the juxtaposition of the "child" and the archangel in #Re 12, but also in the attributes ascribed to him in Daniel (for a full discussion see Hengstenberg, Offenbarung, I, 611-22, and an interesting survey in English by Dr. Douglas in Fairbairn’s BD).
John A. Lees (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia)

ARCHANGEL

This world is only twice used in the Bible, #1Th 4:16 Jude 1:9. In this last passage it is applied to Michael, who, in #Da 10:13,21 12:1, is described as having a special charge of the Jewish nation, and in #Re 12:7-9 as the leader of an angelic army. So exalted are the position and offices ascribed to Michael, that many think the Messiah is meant. ( American Tract Society Bible Dictionary)

The Rabbinical traditions about Michael are very numerous. They oppose him constantly to Sammael, the accuser and enemy of Israel, as disputing for the soul of Moses; as bringing the ram the substitute for Isaac, which Sammael sought to keep back, etc., etc.: they give him the title of the "great high- priest in heaven," as well as that of the "great prince and conqueror;" and finally lay it down that "wherever Michael is said to have appeared, there the glory of the Shechinah is intended." It is clear that the sounder among them, in making such use of the name, intended to personify the Divine Power, and typify the Messiah (see Schoettgen, Hor. Hebr. i. 1079, 1119, ii. 8, 15, ed. Dresd. 1742).( Smiths Revised Bible Dictionary)'

and as to evidence of Michael the Prince creating the universe as Christ the Creator, here are some verses that make the connection....

6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. 7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this. Isaiah 9:6-7 (KJV)

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Dan 9:25 (KJV)

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: Dan 12:1 (KJV)

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:14-15 (KJV)

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31 (KJV)

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, Rev 1:5(KJV)'

Now lets look at Michael the Archangel in the verse in Jude.

(Jude 1:9) Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

In verse 8 Jude denounced false prophets who crept into the church, claiming to be messengers of Christ, which he tells us,“despise dominions.” That is to say, they despise the fact that God is God, despise and refuse to bow to Christ the Lord. It appears he is talking about the Gnostic sects who are sowing confusion even at this time about the diety of Christ.

Jude then goes on in verse 9 to show Christ pre-incarnate who as Michael shows up in the Bible in direct conflict with Satan.

But there is more...lets look at Zechariah 3.

(Zechariah 3:1-5) And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the LORD, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.(2) And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?(3) Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.(4) And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.(5) And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the LORD stood by.

Here, he stands before the Lord God conscious of his guilt and sin. Joshua is here said to be “standing before the Angel of the Lord”(v. 1). In verse 3 we read, “Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the Lord.”— In verse 5 Zechariah says,“and the Angel of the Lord stood by.”

The Angel of the Lord standing by is Jesus Christ, the Son of God. Now, he is not one of the angelic hosts that he created. He is called “the Angel of the Lord,” because he is Jehovah’s Messenger, the Angel of the covenant.

The One who is called,“the Angel of the Lord” in verse 1, is Jehovah himself. We know that because he is called,“the Lord”(Jehovah) in verse 2. This Man who is God, the Angel of the Lord, the Lord Jesus Christ, is our almighty Advocate and effectual Intercessor (Heb. 7:24-27; 1 John 2:1-2).

Notice that again he says the same words as Christ "And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan"

Joshua said nothing. Joshua did nothing. He stood in silence before the Angel of the Lord; and the Lord pleaded his cause, and he definitely shows the Angel as “one who is God”.(Micah 7:8-9, 18-20).

In both Jude 9 and Zech 3:1-2 it is Jesus, the *angel of the LORD* who is also Michael the archangel, contending with Satan for both Moses and Joshua.

If you look carefully you see that Jude is quoting from Zechariah 3:2. "And the Lord said to Satan,'the Lord rebuke you".
Zechariah and Jude have both the Lord and Michael the archangel say the exact same thing, "the lord rebuke you".. This identifies both beings for us...

Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: Rick H] #144295
07/29/12 10:38 AM
07/29/12 10:38 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Now Daniel was told by the angel Gabriel,“The angel prince of the kingdom of Persia opposed me for twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief angels, came to help me… Now I have to go back and fight the guardian angel of Persia. After that the guardian angel of Greece will appear. There is no one to help me except Michael, Israel’s guardian angel. He is responsible for helping and defending me.” Daniel 10:13,20; 11:1

Later Daniel refers to him as “the great prince” Daniel 12:1 and as we see in Jude he is called “the archangel” when he disputed with Satan over the body of Moses. It is the voice of the archangel, this title given to Michael, who is associated with the raising of the dead at the 2nd coming.“There will be the shout of command, the archangel’s voice, the sound of God’s trumpet, and the Lord himself will come down from heaven. Those who have died believing in Christ will rise to life first…” 1 Thessalonians 4:16

The relationship between the resurrection and Michael is reinforced in Daniel when,“the great angel Michael, who guards your people, will appear…many of those who have already died will live again…” Daniel 12:1,2

But scripture tells us that it is Christ's voice that will raise the dead.“The dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear it will come to life…the time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice and come out of their graves…” John 5:25,28,29

Again we see the connection as to who is Michael the Archangel “one who is God”, and here are some verses that make the connection between Christ as Prince and Messiah....

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. Dan 9:25 (KJV)

14 But ye denied the Holy One and the Just, and desired a murderer to be granted unto you; 15 And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses. Acts 3:14-15 (KJV)

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts 5:31 (KJV)

In Revelation 12, Michael is shown as the leader of the angels in the fight against Satan, and then later in Revelation 19, it says it is Jesus who leads the charge as “The armies of heaven followed him.”

The work described in Revelation 12:7-9 is the work of Christ himself, and look at this...

Revelation 20
1And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

2And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

3And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

and compare who fights with the dragon...

(Revelation 12:7-9)
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,(8) And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.(9) And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Then in the Old Testament you can find where God is referred to as an angel. It was “the angel of the LORD” that helped Hagar in the desert, but yet she would say,“Have I really seen God and lived to tell about it?” Genesis 16:7,13

It was “the LORD’s angel” who came to Gideon, but during the conversation it was “the LORD” who answered Gideon, and Gideon asked,“Give me some proof that you are really the LORD.” Judges 6:11,16,17.

Finally, who led the Israelites through the desert?“My angel will go ahead of you and take you into the land of the Amorites…”(Exodus 23:23) But yet Paul says that the One who led the Israelites through the desert was none other than Jesus!“They drank from the spiritual rock that went with them; and that rock was Christ himself.”(1 Corinthians 10:4)

Now Scripture is clear, that there is only one God, who is, who was, and who is to come as we see in the Old Testament.

Deuteronomy 6:4-5
The Lord is our God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God, with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.

Now, God does not allow worship to anyone but Him.

Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:

Twice in Revelation, John was forbidden to fall at the feet of the angel (Revelation 19:10 and Revelation 22: 8-9).
However, when Joshua met the angelic general (Joshua 5:3-15), he was not forbidden from performing this act of worship. Instead, just like the encounter of Moses with God at the burning bush, Joshua was told to take off his shoes because he was standing on holy ground. This leader of the angels was God.

Jesus Christ is the preeminent Angel of the Lord, the Chief Messenger of God, and is called “the angel of his presence”(Isa. 63:9), and the Angel of the covenant (Mal. 3:1). But Jesus is not a created Angel, but the eternal “angel of his presence,” who is himself our God.

Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: Rick H] #144296
07/29/12 10:38 AM
07/29/12 10:38 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Finally lets look at the Second Coming, in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 it states that at the second coming the Lord shall descend with a shout, with the voice of the Archangel. If he shouts with a voice it must be his voice. The Lord is the Archangel. Furthermore, this voice raises the dead and only God can raise the dead.

Paul frequently refers to Jesus as `Lord' in 1 Corinthians in such a way as to identify him as, or equate him with, the Lord Jehovah of the Old Testament.... Paul says that Christians hope to be found `blameless on the day of our Lord Jesus Christ '(1:8; see also 5:5), whereas the Old Testament spoke of that judgment day as the day of Jehovah (e.g., Joel 1:15; 2:1, 11, 31).... Paul's language clearly refers to Jesus as if he were Jehovah.

Thus Jehovah shows Himself in the position as leader of the angelic host at the day of judgement, or second coming the Lord. It all comes together, Michael represents the pre-existent Jesus in angelic form, the Lord of the Host, before He came down, and as the One who gave Himself for salvation after sin came in, He also in scripture reveals Himself as the Messiah or Christ, as seen in the Second Coming...

Scripture clearly shows that Christ is God, the great I AM, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, Jehovah...but he also the Angel of the Lord, the Angel of the Host, and Michael the Arch Angel and there is no conflict here. This is his title when He threw out Satan and when He comes to take the saints and put Satan away forever. Scripture, if you look closely, clearly reveals this and shows us who He is....

Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: Rick H] #144297
07/29/12 10:39 AM
07/29/12 10:39 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Lets take this a next step to see how peoples faith is destroyed by beliefs which deny the deity of Christ. Now we see that Christ lays claim to the great I AM, this is Jehovah. So those who deny Christ as the great I AM are rejecting the eternal, self existing one, who is in fact the "Yahweh" (Jehovah) of the whole Bible. "Yahweh", or Jehovah means literally, “the self-Existent or Eternal” יְהֹוָה Y@hovah {yeh-ho-vaw'} Strong’s Concordance Hebrew #3068, the name Jehovah = "the existing One".

Now there are three claims of the Bible which Satan hates most:
!. The Bible claims that the Son of God has legitimate right to be worshipped.
2. The Bible claims the Son of God is our Creator.
3. The Bible claims that the Son of God possesses authority as the great I AM to give the Law.

So scripture makes clear these points:
1. Only Almighty God should be worshipped.
2. Only Almighty God is our Creator.
3. Only Almighty God is the Lawgiver of the universe.

We see in scripture, “There is one lawgiver.” James 2:12. “ For the LORD (Jehovah) is our judge, the LORD (Jehovah) is our lawgiver, the LORD (Jehovah) is our king (Jesus is our King, Rev 19:16; John 1:49); he will save us (Jesus will save us from our sins ( Matthew 1:21).” (Isa 33:22

Through rejection of the diety of Christ, Satan tried to overthrow the Son of God’s legitimate right to be worshipped. Thus when those do not believe in the diety of Christ, that Christ is the great I AM, Jehovah, the eternal, self existing one, that believer worships a Jesus they believe is NOT self-Existent and Eternal. So they are unknowingly in fact breaking the first commandment. It is unlawful to worship ANY being other than Jehovah God. Then Satan tries to lay doubt to what the Creator did and laid out from the begining including the Sabbath. And we see how Satan has worked hard to make people belive that the Law, the Ten Commandments are null and void, and done away with.

This becomes more serious when we recognize that it was Christ who gave the Law, the Ten Commandments which He wrote with His own finger. He is the LORD mentioned in the first four of the Ten Commandments.

We also see that Satan envied the Son of God for receiving the worship of angels, and said in his heart,“I will exalt my throne above the stars (angels; see Rev 1:20) of God” Isaiah 14:13. In this Lucifer coveted the right to be worshipped. That throne he sought to exalt was a symbol of authority. He also wanted to exalt his laws above God’s Law. Lucifer cannot create, he can only clone or amalgamate and mutate. Lucifer seeks to deceive men into losing sight of the Son of God’s rightful position of Authority as our Lawgiver and Creator. He hated most bitterly above all of God’s commandments the Law which shows the Creator and Lord of the Sabbath.

Their are those who reject the deity of Christ and basically follow the false teachings of Arianism in their belief of Christ and teach that Jesus was the Word who “was a god” John 1:1 (New World Translation of the bible.) They accept the scriptures, which teach that Jesus was the Creator. However they interpret this as Jesus being a created being of angel who was with Jehovah HELPING Jehovah as Jehovah created the heavens and the earth. What does the Bible teach about this?

“ Thus saith the LORD (Jehovah), thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD (Jehovah) that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens ALONE; that spreadeth abroad the earth BY MYSELF;” (Isa 44:24)

No one helped Jehovah make the heavens and earth, JEHOVAH did it alone,BY MYSELF'. The New Testament is clear that Jesus created all things.

“1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” (Joh 1:1-3)

“13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.” (Col 1:13-17)

“ Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the LORD (Jehovah), the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding.” (Isa 40:28)

“The world was made by him, "and without him was not anything made that was made." If Christ made all things, he existed before all things. The words spoken in regard to this are so decisive that no one need be left in doubt. Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, and Christ was one with the Father before the foundation of the world was laid.

Now everywhere where the English Bible refers to The Son in the familiar name "Jesus", it uses the Greek word "Iesous" (#2424). Here is the Strong's definition.

2424 Ihsouv Iesous ee-ay-sooce'
of Hebrew origin 03091 ewvy; TDNT-3:284,360; n pr m
AV-Jesus 972, Jesus (Joshua) 2, Jesus (Justus) 1; 975
Jesus="Jehovah is salvation"
1) Jesus, the Son of God, the Saviour of mankind, God incarnate

The name Jesus means Jehovah or self-Existent Eternal One.
Hosea 13:4
Yet I am the LORD (Jehovah) thy God from the land of Egypt, and thou shalt know no god but me: for there is no saviour beside me.

If the Son of God were NOT Jehovah the self-Existent, Eternal One he would not be the Saviour of the world.

Again lets look at Isaiah 43:11.

“ I, even I, am the LORD (Jehovah); and beside me there is no saviour.” (Isa 43:11)

But if Christ is the Lord God Jehovah, it all comes together...

Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: Rick H] #144298
07/29/12 03:51 PM
07/29/12 03:51 PM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec

"When the law was spoken,

the Lord, the Creator of heaven and earth, stood by the side of His Son,

enshrouded in the fire and the smoke on the mount."


1 BC 1103 (ST Oct. 15, 1896)

Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: gordonb1] #144300
07/29/12 04:02 PM
07/29/12 04:02 PM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec

"Christ was not only the leader of the Hebrews in the wilderness —
the Angel in whom was the name of Jehovah, and who, veiled in the cloudy pillar, went before the host —
but it was He who gave the law to Israel. Amid the awful glory of Sinai,
Christ declared in the hearing of all the people the ten precepts of His Father’s law.
It was He who gave to Moses the law engraved upon the tables of stone."


Patriarchs & Prophets 366

Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: gordonb1] #144301
07/29/12 04:12 PM
07/29/12 04:12 PM
G
gordonb1  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Veteran Member
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec

"This is he [Moses], that was in the church in the wilderness
with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina,
and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:"


Acts 7:38

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Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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