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Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144529
08/11/12 09:22 PM
08/11/12 09:22 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Could you share why you would think that I might be anti-trinity?

Because when Waggoner uses the word "begotten," he refers to literal begetting, that is, to birth. He says in Christ and His righteousness:

“But the point is that Christ is a begotten Son and not a created subject. He has by inheritance a more excellent name than the angels; He is 'a Son over His own house.' Heb. 1:4; 3:6. And since He is the only-begotten son of God, He is of the very substance and nature of God and possesses by birth all the attributes of God, for the Father was pleased that His Son should be the express image of His Person, the brightness of His glory, and filled with all the fullness of the Godhead.”

Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: Rosangela] #144538
08/12/12 02:43 AM
08/12/12 02:43 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Posts: 3,613
USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Could you share why you would think that I might be anti-trinity?

Because when Waggoner uses the word "begotten," he refers to literal begetting, that is, to birth.


Yes, and he was right. Not only in the fact that Jesus was "born" as man on earth, but first He was born as God before there was a heaven. If Jesus came forth from the Father before anything was created, then that is a form of birth. This would also mean Jesus was part of the Father as His seed before coming forth, so He is beyond eternal also.

Beyond the heavenly birth, in the lineage of Christ here on earth the promised messiah was the "seed" that Satan wanted to destroy before He could be born. But the "word" of God MUST be fulfilled. There is no way to stop what God speaks. Jesus is the extension of the Fathers thoughts, put into words, manifested in the flesh.

God was the first to use those words 'begotten Son'. Waggoner was just putting it into context.

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Spirit of Prophecy says...

"The world was made by Him, “and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3). If Christ made all things, He existed before all things. The words spoken in regard to this are so decisive that no one need be left in doubt. Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. {1SM 247.3}
The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. This was no robbery of God. “The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way,” He declares, “before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: while as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth” (Proverbs 8:22-27). {1SM 247.4}
There are light and glory in the truth that Christ was one with the Father before the foundation of the world was laid. This is the light shining in a dark place, making it resplendent with divine, original glory. This truth, infinitely mysterious in itself, explains other mysterious and otherwise unexplainable truths, while it is enshrined in light, unapproachable and incomprehensible. {1SM 248.1}
“Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God” (Psalm 90:2). “The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up” (Matthew 4:16). Here the pre-existence of Christ and the purpose of His manifestation to our world are presented as living beams of light from the eternal throne. “Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek. But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting” (Micah 5:1, 2). {1SM 248.2}

God the Father and His Son have been together since before anything was created. God the Father conceived of our existence, and in this conception He brought forth His Son to be His companion and safeguard for our future. Jesus is not only a perfect companion for the Father, He is the ultimate contingency plan against sin. Before anything could be created God had to have an heir. God is love; and love must have a circuit that is ever expanding, ever giving, ever creative.

"The Sovereign of the universe was not alone in His work of beneficence. He had an associate—a co-worker who could appreciate His purposes, and could share His joy in giving happiness to created beings. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.” John 1:1, 2. Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father—one in nature, in character, in purpose—the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. “His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6. His “goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” Micah 5:2. And the Son of God declares concerning Himself: “The Lord possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting.... When He appointed the foundations of the earth: then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him.” Proverbs 8:22-30. {PP 34.1}
The Father wrought by His Son in the creation of all heavenly beings. “By Him were all things created, ... whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him.” Colossians 1:16. Angels are God’s ministers, radiant with the light ever flowing from His presence and speeding on rapid wing to execute His will. But the Son, the anointed of God, the “express image of His person,” “the brightness of His glory,” “upholding all things by the word of His power,” holds supremacy over them all. Hebrews 1:3. “A glorious high throne from the beginning,” was the place of His sanctuary (Jeremiah 17:12); “a scepter of righteousness,” the scepter of His kingdom. Hebrews 1:8. “Honor and majesty are before Him: strength and beauty are in His sanctuary.” Psalm 96:6. Mercy and truth go before His face. Psalm 89:14." {PP 34.2}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144539
08/12/12 03:36 AM
08/12/12 03:36 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
2 Chronicles 2:6 But who is able to build him an house, seeing the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain him?

All of heaven can not contain the Father. I believe there is a heaven beyond the heaven where angels dwell. The covering Cherub before the throne guard the gate to the dwelling place of the Father. He is protected from evil by the most sophisticated and powerful security defense system.

The true tabernacle made without hands is the body of Christ.

Jesus is the Father coming out to be a part of His creation. A part of God came out to be with us while protecting and keeping watch over the throne of His Father.

If you pray for light on this subject without prejudice He will show you the glory of the truth.

There is a place beyond 'heaven' and a time before 'eternity' where the Father has existed forever and ever.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144613
08/16/12 07:00 PM
08/16/12 07:00 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Yes, and he was right. Not only in the fact that Jesus was "born" as man on earth, but first He was born as God before there was a heaven. If Jesus came forth from the Father before anything was created, then that is a form of birth. This would also mean Jesus was part of the Father as His seed before coming forth, so He is beyond eternal also.

This puts you in the anti-trinitarian camp.

Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: Rosangela] #144614
08/16/12 07:06 PM
08/16/12 07:06 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
There is a place beyond 'heaven' and a time before 'eternity' where the Father has existed forever and ever.

Eternity is before time, but time is not before eternity. Existing forever and ever is what "eternity" means.

Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: Rosangela] #144627
08/16/12 11:37 PM
08/16/12 11:37 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,106
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
Yes, and he was right. Not only in the fact that Jesus was "born" as man on earth, but first He was born as God before there was a heaven. If Jesus came forth from the Father before anything was created, then that is a form of birth. This would also mean Jesus was part of the Father as His seed before coming forth, so He is beyond eternal also.

This puts you in the anti-trinitarian camp.
And private interpretation from what I see as I dont think any doctrine or Christian thought holds that 'God was born' in some place 'before there was a heaven'.

Last edited by Rick H; 08/16/12 11:39 PM.
Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: Rosangela] #144634
08/17/12 02:06 AM
08/17/12 02:06 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela

This puts you in the anti-trinitarian camp.


So you're speeking for me now? If you don't know me you should watch what you say. Just because you cannot fathom my answer does not mean you have the right speak for me. I am NOT anti-trinitarian sister. You saw my response and how I said I am NOT anti-trinitarian but you twist my words to say something else? How dare you.



Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: Will] #144635
08/17/12 02:32 AM
08/17/12 02:32 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
Originally Posted By: Rick H
And private interpretation from what I see as I dont think any doctrine or Christian thought holds that 'God was born' in some place 'before there was a heaven'.


Jesus was BORN of God before anything was created.

Private interpretation? Where do you people come from? Do you even take the time to read what is written?

This whole subject was brought up by my quoting E.J. Waggoner.

Listen closely you might learn something. I would trust the virility of Elder Waggoner during the 1888 message than over anyone on this website.

This writing "Christ and His righteousness" was written around the time of 1888 when Mrs White said that he and Jones were "sent by God", so how dare you contradict these words. This PROVES I am not presenting anything of a private interpretation! If you don't take the time to research this, shut your mouth in Jesus name.

"The Scriptures declare that Christ is "the only begotten son of God." He is begotten, not created. As to when He was begotten, it is not for us to inquire (But we know it was before anything was created), nor could our minds grasp it if we were told. The prophet Micah tells us all that we can know about it, in these words: "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall He come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity." Micah 5:2, margin. There was a time when Christ proceeded forth and came from God, from the bosom of the Father (John 8:42; 1:18), but that time was so far back in the days of eternity that to finite comprehension it is practically without beginning."

Especially to finite, argumentative, unsanctified minds like yours!

“before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth" Proverbs 8:23

Why would He be called the "only Begotten of God" if He was not begotten, which means BORN? He is the SEED of God, perfectly in the FATHERS image. Go figure.



Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: Rosangela] #144636
08/17/12 02:46 AM
08/17/12 02:46 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
There is a place beyond 'heaven' and a time before 'eternity' where the Father has existed forever and ever.

Eternity is before time, but time is not before eternity. Existing forever and ever is what "eternity" means.


Everlasting, eternity, forever, etc., these are mortal words to give dimension to things we barely comprehend, but He is beyond all of it.

That statement was used to illustrate the extreme dimension of eternity, and to look beyond it.

Do you know the concept of God being beyond time? Look it up, beginning with Aristotle, there are literally hundreds of papers related to this issue and I have read every one I can get my hands on. What is "time" to Him?

How is it He can see every thing in every moment all at once like He is OUTSIDE of our time space continuum?

Do you know that right now, physicists are saying that if you go deep enough into the molecular elements that time does not exist? They say it all becomes white noise. I disagree, but this is similar to the concept that God does not live in our time.

If Nothing truly existed in our universe at one 'time', including space, (the deep) and time, (everlasting) then God MUST be outside of our sphere of space and time.

That means 'eternity' within our space and time must have had a beginning. That means God existed before eternity... do you think you can grasp that? I have debated this issue with some the most brilliant minds on our planet. Thank you Jesus for everything you have taught me, amen.

He showed me a vision of the glory of God, outside of a bubble which holds everything within God's universe, which has multiple universes inside of that all encompassing Universe (wheels within a wheel) , which holds all of our time within it's sphere. He is outside of it all and can witness everything all at once. This is what He showed me and what I have been trying to wrap my mind around but it is impossible. I will be thrilled to see more when He wants to show me.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: The Pre-incarnate Christ [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144637
08/17/12 03:25 AM
08/17/12 03:25 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
1 Kings 8:12-13 Then Solomon spoke:
God has told us that he lives in the dark
where no one can see him;
I've built this splendid Temple, O God,
to mark your invisible presence forever.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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