HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested a One Time Yearly $20 or Higher Donation Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading. We need at least $20 X 10 yearly donations.
Donations accepted: Here
ShoutChat Box
Newest Members
ekoorb1030, jibb555, MBloomfield, Dina, Nelson
1323 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums118
Topics9,189
Posts195,525
Members1,323
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

7 Top Posters(30 Days)
Rick H 16
kland 15
Daryl 4
March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Member Spotlight
Kevin H
Kevin H
New York
Posts: 625
Joined: November 2004
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
3 registered members (Karen Y, 2 invisible), 2,795 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
New Reply
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
The Birth of Jesus. #144649
08/18/12 02:41 AM
08/18/12 02:41 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
I love this quote from Brother Waggoner who was truly in Christ when he wrote 'Christ and His righteousness' just after the meeting in Minneapolis MN in 1888. Many people who believe Waggoner was anti-trinitarian by writing this statement do not know the complexities of what is being said.

Mrs White, just after the Minneapolis general conference in 1888, is quoted as saying that Jones and Waggoner where sent by God in 1888, and scolded the leaders of our Church for not embracing them, so this is one of the most important writings in our church's history. Written at the peak of the Spirit led manifestations of God's grace through Mr Waggoner.

"The Scriptures declare that Christ is "the only begotten son of God." He is begotten, not created. As to when He was begotten, it is not for us to inquire, nor could our minds grasp it if we were told. The prophet Micah tells us all that we can know about it, in these words: "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall He come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from the days of eternity." Micah 5:2, margin. There was a time when Christ proceeded forth and came from God, from the bosom of the Father (John 8:42; 1:18), but that time was so far back in the days of eternity that to finite comprehension it is practically without beginning."

Jesus came from the Father, which IS a form of birth. The seed of God manifested for angels and men with every bit the same authority as the Father because He is His Son in perfection.
The heir apparent.

After Jesus was born of the Father, and He created the foundations of everything for the Father, I believe God gave us another glimpse that lets us peer in as far as God will allow on the origins of His divine Son. It shows us the revelation of the earthy body and persona of the minister from the Highest Heaven, Christ Jesus in human form before He came to earth to become a man.

The vision was given to Mrs White at the beginning of her ministry and it is recorded in Early Writings.

"Sorrow filled heaven as it was realized that man was lost and that the world which God had created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and that there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I then saw the lovely Jesus and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon His countenance. Soon I saw Him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, “He is in close converse with His Father.” The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with His Father. Three times He was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time He came from the Father ("from the bosom of the Father" John 8:42; 1:18) we could see His person. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with a loveliness which words cannot describe. He then made known to the angelic choir that a way of escape had been made for lost man; that He had been pleading with His Father, and had obtained permission to give His own life as a ransom for the race, to bear their sins, and take the sentence of death upon Himself, thus opening a way whereby they might, through the merits of His blood, find pardon for past transgressions, and by obedience be brought back to the garden from which they were driven. Then they could again have access to the glorious, immortal fruit of the tree of life to which they had now forfeited all right." {EW 126.1}

"...Paul to the Colossians. Speaking of Christ as the One through whom we have redemption, he describes Him as the One "who is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of every creature; for by Him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by Him, and for Him; and He is before all things, and by Him all things consist." Col. 1:15-17.
This wonderful text should be carefully studied and often contemplated. It leaves not a thing in the universe that Christ did not create. He made everything in heaven, and Christ And His Righteousness. everything on earth; He made everything that can be seen, and everything that cannot be seen; the thrones and dominions, and the principalities and the powers in heaven, all depend upon Him for existence. And as He is before all things, and their Creator, so by Him do all things consist or hold together. This is equivalent to what is said in Heb. 1:3, that He upholds all things by the word of His power. It was by a word that the heavens were made; and that same word
holds them in their place, and preserves them from
destruction."

EJ Waggoner, Christ and His Righteousness.

Would there be a need for a 'Christ' if there were no one to worship His Father? When He created men in His image, He also made a way of escaping the second death for anyone who would sin. Since He is the 'Lamb who was slain from the foundation of the world' He created the plan of salvation and the title and position of 'Christ', He did not create Himself.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Reply Quote
Re: The Birth of Jesus. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144650
08/18/12 02:45 AM
08/18/12 02:45 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
If Jesus came forth from the Father before anything was created, including time and space of our universe, then that is a form of birth. This would also mean Jesus was part of the Father as His seed before coming forth, so He is beyond eternal also. A perfect DNA match to the Father because Jesus did not have a heavenly mother. This is fully within the power of the Father to do, both for his glory and to secure the throne.

In the manifestation of the highest heavenly birth of Jesus He was made creator, in the earthly birth without an earthly Fathers DNA He became redeemer from sin...two births.

He was 'given' to the human race forever to be connected to us, the greatest mystery.

This does not mean that the God head is not to be considered three separate entities, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But before anything was created, Jesus "Came forth" from the bosom, or heart of the Father in a birth. This is half of the reason why He is called the 'Only BEGOTTEN Son of God'. God gave the power and authority to His Son to create us, and then to recreate us, through His sacrifice and the power of the Holy Spirit.

Beyond the heavenly birth and the creation of heaven and earth, in the lineage of Adam to Christ here on earth, the promised messiah was the "seed" that Satan wanted to destroy before He could be born. But the "word" of God MUST be fulfilled. There is no way to stop what God speaks. Jesus is the extension of the Fathers thoughts, put into words, manifested in the flesh.

Jesus was BEGOTTEN of the Father in this way when He came in the form of a baby in Bethlehem, carrying on the perfect line of birth, with studies ingrained in His earthly birth to understand His heavenly birth.

God was the first to use those words 'begotten Son'. Waggoner was just putting it into context.

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Spirit of Prophecy says...

"The world was made by Him, “and without him was not any thing made that was made” (John 1:3). If Christ made all things, He existed before all things. The words spoken in regard to this are so decisive that no one need be left in doubt. Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense. He was with God from all eternity, God over all, blessed forevermore. {1SM 247.3}
The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father. He was the surpassing glory of heaven. He was the commander of the heavenly intelligences, and the adoring homage of the angels was received by Him as His right. This was no robbery of God. “The Lord possessed me in the beginning of his way,” He declares, “before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: while as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth” (Proverbs 8:22-27). {1SM 247.4}
There are light and glory in the truth that Christ was one with the Father before the foundation of the world was laid. This is the light shining in a dark place, making it resplendent with divine, original glory. This truth, infinitely mysterious in itself, explains other mysterious and otherwise unexplainable truths, while it is enshrined in light, unapproachable and incomprehensible. {1SM 248.1}
“Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God” (Psalm 90:2). “The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up” (Matthew 4:16). Here the pre-existence of Christ and the purpose of His manifestation to our world are presented as living beams of light from the eternal throne. “Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek. But thou, Beth-lehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting” (Micah 5:1, 2). {1SM 248.2}

God the Father and His Son have been together since before anything was created. God the Father conceived of our existence, and in this conception He brought forth His Son to be His companion and safeguard for our future. Jesus is not only a perfect companion for the Father, He is the ultimate contingency plan against sin. Before anything could be created God had to have an heir. God is love; and love must have a circuit that is ever expanding, ever giving, ever creative.

"The Sovereign of the universe was not alone in His work of beneficence. He had an associate—a co-worker who could appreciate His purposes, and could share His joy in giving happiness to created beings. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God.” John 1:1, 2. Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father—one in nature, in character, in purpose—the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. “His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.” Isaiah 9:6. His “goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.” Micah 5:2. And the Son of God declares concerning Himself: “The Lord possessed Me in the beginning of His way, before His works of old. I was set up from everlasting.... When He appointed the foundations of the earth: then I was by Him, as one brought up with Him: and I was daily His delight, rejoicing always before Him.” Proverbs 8:22-30. {PP 34.1}
The Father wrought by His Son in the creation of all heavenly beings. “By Him were all things created, ... whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by Him, and for Him.” Colossians 1:16. Angels are God’s ministers, radiant with the light ever flowing from His presence and speeding on rapid wing to execute His will. But the Son, the anointed of God, the “express image of His person,” “the brightness of His glory,” “upholding all things by the word of His power,” holds supremacy over them all. Hebrews 1:3. “A glorious high throne from the beginning,” was the place of His sanctuary (Jeremiah 17:12); “a scepter of righteousness,” the scepter of His kingdom. Hebrews 1:8. “Honor and majesty are before Him: strength and beauty are in His sanctuary.” Psalm 96:6. Mercy and truth go before His face. Psalm 89:14." {PP 34.2}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Reply Quote
Re: The Birth of Jesus. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144653
08/18/12 03:14 AM
08/18/12 03:14 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
If believing that Jesus was born from the heart of the Father to create for Him everything in His heart for us through the power of the Holy Spirit is being an "anti-Trinitarion", which is what I am accused of, then I do not know God.

But if I am right, motivated by the Holy Spirit as I claim, and Jesus was born, both in the highest heaven where the Father dwells, so He could create us, and again on earth so He could save us, then some people owe my God a huge apology for the slander against His messengers. I am so blessed by this understanding. It answers so many questions. Many un-churched people find this answer very soothing to their souls hungering and thirsting after righteousness through truth. I KNOW it is not evil; this message IS Holy.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Reply Quote
Re: The Birth of Jesus. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144668
08/19/12 12:57 AM
08/19/12 12:57 AM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Most pioneers were anti-trinitarian, including James White and Uriah Smith. The Church, in 1888, still wasn't trinitarian, and although Waggoner made some progress in this respect, his position can't be classified as trinitarian, once trinitarianism pressuposes that Christ had no beginning, for the three persons of the Godhead are co-eternal and co-equal.

Reply Quote
Re: The Birth of Jesus. [Re: Rosangela] #144684
08/19/12 05:00 PM
08/19/12 05:00 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
So are you going to follow me around promoting arguments everywhere I go to shut this thread down too?

For one thing, the word 'trinity' is not scriptural so you can stop right there with all your arguing. Neither Jesus nor the apostles used the word and they lived in the time when that now dead language, Latin, was spoken in their area, and they spoke the Greek language that Latin took that word from, and this Greek word is not even used by them.

Are you going to quote the Nicaean counsel, the first ecumenical counsel directed by Constantine where the word was established also? You sound like a Catholic with your insisting on calling the Godhead the trinity.

Mrs White never used the word Trinity. Go to the E.G White estate and do a word search and you will not find it except by the editors of her books.

Of course Jesus is eternal, or before time. He is the seed, part of the Father who is eternal, but He was born from the heart of the Father to create everything, including the time and space that governs our universe and heaven also, so it is in this sense that He IS eternal. He is the express form of the Father. His form has been brought forth from the body of the Father to create everything for the Father, including time and space. He has also paved the way for men to reach and live forever in eternity.

I will ask you questions to see if you know the truth.

Did Jesus appear to the angels as their creator right away after their creation? When did God the Father tell His servants, the angels, that Jesus, Michael, is the creator and redeemer?

Answer; After the fall of Lucifer... "The King of the universe summoned the heavenly hosts before Him, that in their presence He might set forth the true position of His Son, and show the relation He sustained to all created beings. The Son of God shared the Father’s throne, and the glory of the eternal, self-existent One encircled both.—Patriarchs and Prophets, 36. {7ABC 438.3}

This happened after Satan had first rebelled, but before men were created.

So the angels were not aware of the divinity of Christ until the Father showed them.

Now here's the big one, does Jesus know everything that the Father knows, or is He dependent on the Father to teach Him?

Answer; "Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was One with the eternal Father,—one in nature, in character, in purpose,—the only being that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God." Patriarchs and Prophets, 34. {7ABC 437.2}

No, He doesn't know everything unless the Father shares it with Him...the proof is in the fact that Jesus pleads with the Father for us. If He knew the end from the beginning and who was going to make it, why would He plead? On earth He learned just like us, but since He had the character of His Father and was perfect, having never sinned, He learned perfectly.

Jesus is even seen pleading with Father in heaven before He took on an earthly body so why plead for us if He knew the Father was going to send Him? He knew the plan beforehand, but He talked with His Father who was reluctant to let Him go, so Jesus plead with Him to let him go. This shows a definite distinction between Father and Son, and that Jesus knows what the Father tells Him.

You better pray about this before you answer sister. I have been blessed with these answers through the Spirit of Prophecy and scripture, so watch your response.

Isn't it funny that the same people who argue that Jesus is a separate and distinct entity in the Godhead (which is true) also argue that He knows everything like the Father. He knows everything the Father teaches Him, what the Father teaches Him He teaches us and the angels look to us to see the unfolding of the manifest wisdom of the Father.

1 Peter 1:12 (ESV) "It was revealed to them that they were serving not themselves but you, in the things that have now been announced to you through those who preached the good news to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, things into which angels long to look.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Reply Quote
Re: The Birth of Jesus. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144685
08/19/12 05:25 PM
08/19/12 05:25 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
“God has sent His Son to communicate His own life to humanity. Christ declares, ‘I live by the Father,’ My life and His being one. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him. ‘For as the Father hath life in Himself, so hath He given to the Son to have life in Himself; and hath given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of man.’ The head of every man is Christ, as the head of Christ is God. ‘And ye are Christ’s, and Christ is God’s.’” {LUH December 2, 1908, par. 6}

Jesus was born of the Father so He could live as a man and execute judgment in righteousness.

DO NOT MISUNDERSTAND MY INTENTIONS!!! There are three persons in the Godhead...

"The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight. {Ev 614.2}
The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested. The Word of God declares Him to be “the express image of His person.” “God so loved the world, that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” Here is shown the personality of the Father. {Ev 614.3}
The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.—Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905). {Ev 615.1}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Reply Quote
Re: The Birth of Jesus. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144687
08/19/12 05:43 PM
08/19/12 05:43 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
If you look at the word Godhead and see that the Father is the head of Christ, His SON, there is more than enough proof to take us to the next level of understanding who God is and who His Son is and who the Holy spirit is.

"Under the Holy Spirit’s working even the weakest, by exercising faith in God, learned to improve their entrusted powers and to become sanctified, refined, and ennobled. As in humility they submitted to the molding influence of the Holy Spirit, they received of the fullness of the Godhead and were fashioned in the likeness of the divine. {AA 49.3}

If you have done the word search for 'trinity', now do the 'word' search (pun intended) for 'Godhead' in those same writings.

https://egwwritings.org/

0 results for 'Trinity'...286 results for Godhead. Hmmm? Sounds like you need to learn before you speak eh?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Reply Quote
Re: The Birth of Jesus. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144690
08/19/12 06:50 PM
08/19/12 06:50 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
So are you going to follow me around promoting arguments everywhere I go to shut this thread down too?

I have participated in dozens of discussions about the Trinity in this forum, and we have several members here who are antitrinitarian, and therefore hold a view different from mine, and I never had to close any of these threads - in fact that one was the first thread I had to close in my 8 years as a moderator in this forum.

Quote:
For one thing, the word 'trinity' is not scriptural so you can stop right there with all your arguing.

The word "millennium" also can't be found in the Bible, and this doesn't mean it's wrong to use it.

The SDA Church is a trinitarian church. That is our FB#2:
Quote:
2. Trinity:
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-knowing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. He is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Deut. 6:4; Matt. 28:19; 2 Cor. 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Tim. 1:17; Rev. 14:7.)

Those who wish to join the SDA Church must be in agreement with this belief, otherwise they shouldn't be baptized.

It is true that Ellen White doesn't use the word "Trinity," perhaps because there are some differences between the SDA view and the common view of the Trinity held by some churches, but her writings substantiate the view that "there is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three co-eternal Persons."

The Godhead consists of three distinct persons. Ellen White calls it "the eternal Godhead" (UL 148.4), and speaks of "the eternal heavenly dignitaries" (Ev 616.4), mentioning, in both instances, the three persons, which means the eternal unity of these three distinct persons. But if there was a time when Christ didn't exist as a distinct person from the Father, this means there was a time when the eternal Godhead didn't exist. Or it means that the word "eternal," for Ellen White, doesn't mean "without beginning or end of existence," and that she used it in a new sense, in the same way as the word "underived." When I read her writings, I can find no evidence that this is the case, but if such evidence can be produced, I am willing to examine it.

As to the Holy Spirit, Ellen White is clear that He is a person. Did this person already exist before Christ came to existence as a distinct person, or He didn't?

Reply Quote
Re: The Birth of Jesus. [Re: Rosangela] #144701
08/20/12 02:56 PM
08/20/12 02:56 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
So you are motivated to follow and continue arguing. Shame on you.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Reply Quote
Re: The Birth of Jesus. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144710
08/20/12 08:24 PM
08/20/12 08:24 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
Millennium is a term for space and time, everything related to the Godhead is above this topic and should be used in a reverential manner, not common.

It is not apples to apples that you relate.

God does not use the word trinity for Himself, so in reverence we should use one of the many self declared titles or positions for Him. He has a title for every position and honor bestowed in Him and HE declared them in His word. why would we call someone by a name they do not call themselves? Especially someone who is your creator and who went to such extensive lengths to say "And His name shall be called..."?

Translation of all of His titles is honored, but use of a new title is common, not from the mouth of God.

This is faith, believing and relying upon every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. If He didn't say it, it's not Holy.

Instead of calling you Rosangelina how would you like to be called woman? But men of a different faith call God THE 'Trinity' every day.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Reply Quote
Re: The Birth of Jesus. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #144711
08/20/12 08:40 PM
08/20/12 08:40 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
In fact, if the word "trinity" was not coined by Constantine's counsel we probably wouldn't be in the problem we have today with the pagan understanding of the trinity warring against the Godhead inside His church as it is today. Every sin of the past is being revisited today.

What side do you want to be on?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Reply Quote
Re: The Birth of Jesus. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #152295
05/03/13 10:19 PM
05/03/13 10:19 PM
G
Gregory  Offline
SDA
Chaplain

Active Member 2022
Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,364
USA
Quote:
You better pray about this before you answer sister. I have been blessed with these answers through the Spirit of Prophecy and scripture, so watch your response.



I have read Rosangela for sometime. I may not always agree with everything that she saysl. But, it is clear to me that she has a greater sense of what scripture says than your claims.


Quote:
So are you going to follow me around promoting arguments everywhere I go to shut this thread down too?


I don't think that Rosangela, or any one else has a need to follow you arround. You simply show up where people are. People respond to you due to the content of your posts.


Last edited by Gregory; 05/03/13 10:23 PM.

Gregory
May God's will be done.
Reply Quote
Re: The Birth of Jesus. [Re: Rosangela] #152303
05/04/13 04:13 AM
05/04/13 04:13 AM
A
Augustus  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 13
UK
This is an Arian/luciferian fallacy and has no biblical or spirit of prophercy underpinning.
This is the esoteric teachings of secret societies and Catholicism[it being the mother of such beliefs].
One may find this quotation instructive:-
The Desire of Ages in 1898…she says 'In Him was life Original, Unborrowed, Underived.' In Desire of Ages…she quotes Jesus’ answer to the Jews in John 8:58 'Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was I AM'… 'He was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent…He is the eternal self-existing Son.'" (ms 101, 1897). The English language used here is self-explanatory, thereby forfeiting any ambiguity.
[I love this quote from Brother Waggoner who was truly in Christ when he wrote 'Christ and His righteousness' just after the meeting in Minneapolis MN in 1888. Many people who believe Waggoner was anti-trinitarian by writing this statement do not know the complexities of what is being said].As far as I am aware, Mr Waggoner was not given the gift of prophecy and his statements should be attested to by both The Greater Light and The Lesser light.

Thank You

Reply Quote
Re: The Birth of Jesus. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #152304
05/04/13 04:20 AM
05/04/13 04:20 AM
A
Augustus  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 13
UK
[In fact, if the word "trinity" was not coined by Constantine's counsel we probably wouldn't be in the problem we have today with the pagan understanding of the trinity warring against the Godhead inside His church as it is today. Every sin of the past is being revisited today]. This conclusion has all the hallmarks of Genetic Fallacy.

Thank You

Reply Quote
Re: The Birth of Jesus. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #152305
05/04/13 05:31 AM
05/04/13 05:31 AM
A
Augustus  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 13
UK
[If Jesus came forth from the Father before anything was created, including time and space of our universe, then that is a form of birth. This would also mean Jesus was part of the Father as His seed before coming forth, so He is beyond eternal also. A perfect DNA match to the Father because Jesus did not have a heavenly mother. This is fully within the power of the Father to do, both for his glory and to secure the throne. In the manifestation of the highest heavenly birth of Jesus He was made creator, in the earthly birth without an earthly Fathers DNA He became redeemer from sin...two births].
What's next...Hieros Gamos.
And what of The Holy Spirit?

Thanks

Reply Quote
Re: The Birth of Jesus. [Re: jamesonofthunder] #152306
05/04/13 06:05 AM
05/04/13 06:05 AM
A
Augustus  Offline
Posting New Member
Joined: Apr 2013
Posts: 13
UK
[Jesus was BEGOTTEN of the Father in this way when He came in the form of a baby in Bethlehem, carrying on the perfect line of birth, with studies ingrained in His earthly birth to understand His heavenly birth.
God was the first to use those words 'begotten Son'. Waggoner was just putting it into context]. Before attempting to exercise, export and indulge your ignorance on this topic; one ought to familiarise themselves with the Original Greek Text. Most biblical scholars agree that, the exegesis lends itself to Unique Son as oppose to birth son.
Discussion:-
For God so loveth the world,
that he hath given his only son,
that none that believe in him,
should perish:
but should have everlasting life.
—John 3:16, Tyndale translation, 1534 version (modern spelling).
Perhaps you know this verse from the Bible. Notice the words only son are emphasised. That is because they are the subject of this article. In the original Greek, that's μονογενης υιος, or monogenes huios, transliterated.
It is not generally known that ninety percent of the 1611 King James Version is from Tyndale's translation, which I quoted from above. Now, it just so happens that part of the ten percent where they differ is here in the words only son.
For God so loved the world,
that he gave his only begotten Son
that whosoever believeth in him
should not perish
but have everlasting life.
—John 3:16, King James Version (KJV), 1611.
The King James Version (KJV) was so influential that it became the standard translation for the next 300 years. And it is still in widespread use.
So where did this word begotten come from? The word that is being translated as only begotten by the KJV is monogenes. The KJV translators liked to translate word-for-word when it was possible. So when they came to monogenes they translated mono as only and genes as begotten. That is easy.
Can the word Son have a symbolic meaning? Yes. The word υιος (or huios, word #5207 in Strong's Concordance) has been used in a symbolic sense in these passages, among others:
to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder
—Mark 3:17
Adam, the son of God.
—Luke 3:38
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus
—Galatians 3:26
Currently the best-selling English translation of the Bible is the New International Version (NIV). Here is how the NIV renders John 3:16:-
For God so loved the world
that he gave his one and only Son,
that whoever believes in him
shall not perish
but have eternal life.
—John 3:16, New International Version (NIV), 1973.
The NIV adds as a footnote,
3:16 Or his only begotten Son
So now begotten is in the footnote and not in the main text. Why?
Begotten Or Not Begotten, That Is The Question
Reasons why monogenes should not be translated as only begotten:
The word monogenes also appears elsewhere in the New Testament:
By faith Abraham, when God tested him, offered Isaac as a sacrifice. He who had received the promises was about to sacrifice his one and only [monogenes] son, even though God had said to him, "It is through Isaac that your offspring will be reckoned." Abraham reasoned that God could raise the dead, and figuratively speaking, he did receive Isaac back from death.
—Hebrews 11:17-19 (NIV)
This time the NIV (1973) does not have an explanatory footnote offering only begotten as an alternate rendering, as it does for John 3:16, but it is the same Greek word monogenes. To say Isaac was Abraham’s only-begotten son would make no sense since according to the Bible, Abraham begat Ishmael as well as Isaac. But "one of a kind", "one and only", or "unique" would fit because Isaac was special. Abraham's wife, Sarah, was too old to have a child but she nevertheless became pregnant.
Dr. James R. White notes,
The key element to remember in deriving the meaning of monogenes is this: it is a compound term, combining monos, meaning only, with a second term. Often it is assumed that the second term is gennasthai/gennao, to give birth, to beget. But note that this family of terms has two nu’s, νν, rather than a single nu, ν, found in monogenes. This indicates that the second term is not gennasthai but gignesthai/ginmai, and the noun form, genos. G. L. Prestige discusses the differences that arise from these two derivations in God in Patristic Thought (London: SPCK, 1952), 37-51, 135-141, 151-156.
Genos means "kind or type", ginomai is a verb of being. Hence the translations "one of a kind," "one and only," "of sole descent." Some scholars see the -genes element as having a minor impact upon the meaning of the term, and hence see monogenes as a strengthened form of monos, thereby translating it "alone," "unique," "incomparable."
An example of this usage from the LXX is found in Psalm 25:16,
turn to me and be gracious to me,
for I am lonely (monogenes) and afflicted: (NASB)
(White, The Forgotten Trinity [Minneapolis, MN, Bethany House Publishers, 1998], pp. 201-202, fn. 27)
Note that the so-called LXX (mentioned above) is a Greek translation of the Hebrew Old Testament that existed in Jesus' day. Sometimes we can gain insight into Greek New Testament words by how Hebrew words were translated into Greek by the Jewish scholars. In this case, the Hebrew word for lonely was translated into Greek as monogenes. So this helps us justify that monogenes means "alone," "unique," or "incomparable."
Reasons why monogenes may be translated as only begotten:
From the discussion above, we see that the seemingly obvious translation of monogenes to only begotten may not be the most accurate. However, the Greek word monogenes does not have a single equivalent corresponding word in English.
[Courtesy http://www.answering-islam.org/Who/jesus_monogenes.html]
Thank You

Reply Quote
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Quick Reply

Options
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled
CAPTCHA Verification



Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y. 03/27/24 09:35 AM
Are the words in the Bible "imperfect"?
by Kevin H. 03/24/24 09:02 PM
The Story of David and Goliath
by ProdigalOne. 03/23/24 08:06 PM
Global Warming Farce
by kland. 03/22/24 10:17 AM
Carbon Dioxide What's so Bad about It?
by kland. 03/21/24 12:34 PM
The Value of Bible Types
by TruthinTypes. 03/17/24 06:22 PM
Orion Which Every One on the Globe Can See
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:26 PM
'Prophet' Summons UFOs
by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 02:19 AM
Will You Take The Wuhan Virus Vaccine?
by dedication. 03/11/24 06:31 PM
Get That Razor Wire Up!
by kland. 03/05/24 12:49 PM
Messages for This Time
by ProdigalOne. 03/04/24 05:54 AM
The Lake of Fire is Hell
by Rick H. 03/02/24 05:01 PM
Adventist Agriculture
by kland. 02/29/24 12:33 PM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
The Wound Is Healed! The Mark Is Forming!
by Rick H. 03/27/24 10:36 PM
Are we seeing a outpouring of the Holy Spirit?
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:50 PM
Time Is Short!
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:45 PM
Climate Change and the Sunday Law
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:42 PM
WHAT IS THE VERY END-TIME PROPHECY?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 06:03 PM
Digital Identity Control
by Rick H. 03/23/24 02:08 PM
A.I. - The New God?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 01:59 PM
Christian Nationalism/Sunday/C
limate Change

by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 08:38 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:30 PM
Is There A Connection Between WO & LGBTQ?
by Kevin H. 03/12/24 09:20 PM
A Second American Civil War?
by Daryl. 03/04/24 06:14 PM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter
Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com

Copyright 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1