|
Forums118
Topics9,194
Posts195,567
Members1,323
| |
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
|
|
|
S |
M |
T |
W |
T |
F |
S |
|
|
1
|
2
|
3
|
4
|
5
|
6
|
|
7
|
8
|
9
|
10
|
11
|
12
|
13
|
|
14
|
15
|
16
|
17
|
18
|
19
|
20
|
|
21
|
22
|
23
|
24
|
25
|
26
|
27
|
|
28
|
29
|
30
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
|
|
|
3 registered members (ProdigalOne, 2 invisible),
2,886
guests, and 18
spiders. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#143275
06/11/12 07:20 AM
06/11/12 07:20 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2014
Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
|
|
I agree with some of what you write.
My concern is that several scholars have gotten away with a faulty interpretation of Scripture and they keep preaching it from our pulpits and writing abut it in their books and magazines. It is this mis-representation of the Word of God which places about one half of the mankind God has created on a level where they can use the others as a plaything to satisfy their carnal lust. I believe we can apply this Bible text to what these men are doing:
Revelation 22:19
King James Version (KJV)
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
That is the seriousness of this issue.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
|
|
|
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters
[Re: Johann]
#143276
06/11/12 08:04 AM
06/11/12 08:04 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
|
|
For beautiful language I love the old King James version. It was around 1958 I noticed what problems the KJV was causing the Seventh-day Adventist Church on a World scale. The Sabbath School lessons for a quarter were a study of the Psalms. The author of the lessons based the study on the KJV. It was beautiful in the English speaking world as long as you used the KJV. Then I noticed how translators of the lessons in other parts of the world struggled with these lessons in countries where the Bibles had a more correct rendering of the original text. They would insert in the text of the lessons explanations that such and such a verse in English was so different that the questions and references did not fit to the text in their Bibles.
Fortunately there seemed to be no doctrinal differences, but just completely different pictures in the poetic language. I remember thinking then, Why do the authors not realize that we are a world church with a membership even larger who do not speak English? Why give these people the impression that the good Americans are using a different Bible?
Some time after that the Germans took a drastic measure to avoid any more King Jamification of Adventism. Now they write their own Sabbath School lessons, but I understand some confusion still remains as some German speaking countries use our world edition.
It so happens that I functioned as a Director of Sabbath Schools for nine years in two different countries. During that time I attended a number of meetings where we also discussed the lesson material and tried to solve some of the problems.
Already around 1960 the Sabbath School Department of the General Conference came to the realization that we are a world movement,and since then the editors of the lessons have tried to avoid references that are based solely on the wording of the KJV - or any other particular Bible translation. Unfortunately we still have some staunch scholars who have not yet woken up to the fact that we are a world movement.
Personally I am still very old fashioned by wanting to follow the principles outlined by Ellen G White, and I will never accept a teaching that is not fully in agreement with her writings. This includes that we are not to launch a new interpretation of Scripture on our own before we have consulted with others and seen that a number of other Bible students see the same possibility. Johann, Perhaps during the lapses of time between your participations on this forum we have discussed in other threads the issues surrounding Bible versions. You might look up those topics and join in the discussion there. I think it would be of interest to you. Particularly, a recent discussion has pointed us to the debate over this topic that was in the church around the 1930s. A book was written by one of our theology professors on Bible versions titled "Our Authorized Bible Vindicated." HERE is a link to the post where this book is introduced online. As for the language issues, part of the problem is that all Bibles since about 1901 have been translated from the Codex Alexandrinus/Vaticanus, which is a corrupt manuscript. People say the translations are accurate, and they may be right. But they don't realize that the translations are not of the same text that the KJV has come from. I have no problem with translations from the Textus Receptus. But why should I accept a translation from a "more ancient manuscript" that was edited (Greek/Hebrew manuscripts) by the likes of Westcott and Hort and the Jesuits? Unfortunately, our church has turned a blind eye to the facts in the case because the leadership wanted to believe that being politically correct was best. The same attitudes of political correctness have colored a number of our other doctrines in today's world as well. Satan will use the downfall of God's servants to advantage. He will use it to discredit their prior teachings, so that the truth is not taken to heart by the people. Such was the case with Jones and Waggoner. The people did not immediately accept their message, and when they later apostatized, the people used it as an excuse to reject it altogether. The same might be true of Pipim. I'm not saying that everything he taught is to be taken as truth. But what I would caution is that one should not necessarily reject everything he taught just because of his later failure. Mrs. White informed us that Jones and Waggoner had the right message in 1888. She did not change her view of this even after they had apostatized. This should be a lesson to us. I don't understand your perspective on how Dr. Pipim's teachings would lower women to object status. Feel free to expound on your line of reasoning behind this. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
|
|
|
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#143277
06/11/12 11:02 AM
06/11/12 11:02 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2014
Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
|
|
I knew this debate on the Textus Receptus vs.Westcottt and Hort was going on here. I did not intend to take part in that debate here, rather point out that a substantial number of competent Adventist scholars and Church leaders read their Bibles and the writings of Ellen White and arrive at a conclusion quite different from Samuelle Bacchiocchi, Pipim, Batchelor, and others.
In my estimation their teaching is a non-Biblical degradation of womanhood which, in some cases, can lead to what we are discussing here.
Several years ago I met with Leslie Hardinge who then was writing his doctoral thesis at the University of London. He told me of his discoveries that some of the first settlers of Iceland fled from the Roman Catholic invaders because they were forcing these early Christians to abandon the Sabbath.
Further studies now indicate that these Celts came up through Europe bringing with them the primitive Christianity, including the Sabbath and furthermore a high esteem of womanhood, including the ordination of women as pastors and teachers.
The Roman Catholics followed them with their military power, forcing them to abandon the Sabbath in favor of Sunday worship - and their high esteem of women, which did not please the pope.
It appears like these Celtic primitive Christians fled to the Shetland Islands, and that those who survived when the Roman Catholic onslaught reached those islands, fled farther west and north to Iceland. We also know that after the arrival of pagan Norwegian Vikings in 874 AD there were still a number of Celtic communities in Iceland. In 1000 AD it was voted by the Assembly that the pagans would become Christian. Some of the pagans did not like to be baptized then in the ice-cold waters near the Assembly so they were baptized in a thermal pool where I sometimes take our visitors for a Sabbath ride. The Catholic church did not have full sway here so the priests and bishops had children who carried the name of the father, even if they fooled the pope by keeping their wives at a distance.
Some of the Apostolic/Celtic attitude towards women remains with us, perhaps one reason many foreign visitors claim we have the most beautiful women in the world. At least we don't have to hide them and de-valuate their God-given importance the way some are doing, including attempts to get the Lord on your side by the way you read His Word.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
|
|
|
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters
[Re: Johann]
#143279
06/11/12 11:46 AM
06/11/12 11:46 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2014
Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
|
|
OK Mr. Green, even if the KJV is a translation of the "better" Textus Receptus, the translators had to insert three words not in the original into the text of their translation: "must", "their", and "be". in order for the text to say what they wanted it to say. (1 Tim 3:11)
It seems to me it was more than 50 years ago our MINISTRY magazine had an article questioning the KJV rendering, written by a competent Greek scholar who was an expert at Greek grammar.
I suppose this did not please those among us who preferred the Roman Catholic interpretation.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
|
|
|
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters
[Re: Johann]
#143290
06/11/12 04:04 PM
06/11/12 04:04 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
|
|
Johann, One thing I like about the KJV is that when they have added words, either for grammar, or for clarity, they italicize them so that you know the words were added. The modern translations do no such thing, making you feel they are more accurate (as if they had not added anything), when in fact they have added or changed far more than the KJV ever hoped to. As for 1 Tim. 3:11, I don't see how it figures large in the women's ordination issue. Those added words change the meaning very little. What are you going to do with the other verses in that same chapter to which no words were added, like these: A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; (1 Timothy 3:2)
Let the deacons be the husbands of one wife, ruling their children and their own houses well. (1 Timothy 3:12) Regarding added words, the KJV is not impartial toward the women in that chapter either. As you may notice, the words "must" and "be" are added to the deacons in verse 8 before they are added to the wives in verse 11. They have done this to assist the grammar of the text, as proper English sentences need verbs. Without the verb added, it would not be a sentence. I hardly think one can fairly impugn the translators of the KJV for adding a verb, where no verb was in the original! The fact is, the modern versions will have added words here as well, they just don't italicize them, giving you a false sense of security. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
|
|
|
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#143296
06/11/12 06:01 PM
06/11/12 06:01 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2014
Veteran Member
|
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 936
Quebec
|
|
One thing I like about the KJV is that when they have added words, either for grammar, or for clarity, they italicize them so that you know the words were added. This is a common assumption, but only a general guideline. The KJV includes supplied words which are not italicized but which can alter meaning if one does not study carefully. ______________
|
|
|
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#143354
06/13/12 06:07 PM
06/13/12 06:07 PM
|
SDA
Active Member 2024
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
|
|
Am I the only one that on the link of the first post to his answer letter comes across as an advertisement for his website? Just something about his letter makes me think of Ernie. Maybe it's unfounded, but wondered if it struck anyone else as, sales must go on.
Maybe he's truly just trying to explain things, but lack of internet marketer, he ain't.
|
|
|
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#143372
06/14/12 09:30 AM
06/14/12 09:30 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2014
Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
|
|
Johann,
Unfortunately, our church has turned a blind eye to the facts in the case because the leadership wanted to believe that being politically correct was best. The same attitudes of political correctness have colored a number of our other doctrines in today's world as well.
Satan will use the downfall of God's servants to advantage. He will use it to discredit their prior teachings, so that the truth is not taken to heart by the people. Such was the case with Jones and Waggoner. The people did not immediately accept their message, and when they later apostatized, the people used it as an excuse to reject it altogether.
The same might be true of Pipim. I'm not saying that everything he taught is to be taken as truth. But what I would caution is that one should not necessarily reject everything he taught just because of his later failure.
Mrs. White informed us that Jones and Waggoner had the right message in 1888. She did not change her view of this even after they had apostatized. This should be a lesson to us.
I don't understand your perspective on how Dr. Pipim's teachings would lower women to object status. Feel free to expound on your line of reasoning behind this.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa. 1. Yes, Mr. Green, it is "politically" correct to follow the understanding of the majority of the fallen churches to avoid the severity of the persecution in the final battle for the truth. So, on that basis I understand your concern. This is definitely coloring the teachings of a number of our leaders as we are approaching the second coming. 2. It is interesting you should bring up the case with Jones and Waggoner. I have had to deal with that on the local level in one of my churches where some of my members seem to regard some of the writings of these men produced after their downfall as even more sacred than Scripture and Ellen White. 3. Pipim's present defense of his actions are to me a clear sign that his hermeneutics are weak and faulty. One of the strongest arguments voiced against Pipim's faulty theology is found in the reasons given by former president Jimmy Carter for leaving his own Southern Baptist church recently and also in Billy Graham's reasons for being in disagreement with his own church. Billy Graham states that he finds no reason in the Bible to go against the ordination of women. What is even more important to me is how many solid Seventh-day Adventist Bible teachers have shown on the basis of the Bible how faulty the arguments against the ordination of women are. But if you choose to side with the Pope, who does not care what the Bible says, that is your choice.
Last edited by Johann; 06/14/12 09:33 AM.
"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
|
|
|
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters
[Re: Johann]
#143479
06/18/12 03:33 AM
06/18/12 03:33 AM
|
SDA
Active Member 2021
5500+ Member
|
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
|
|
Johann,
Regarding the last point you made, I must say that there are times when I side with the devil himself, because the devil will speak truth when it suits his purposes. If the pope speaks truth, we must be prepared to agree with it, if not with the man himself.
Blessings,
Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
|
|
|
Re: Samuel Pipim Getting Rebaptized - Please Read these Letters
[Re: Tammy Roesch]
#145139
09/08/12 07:43 PM
09/08/12 07:43 PM
|
SDA
Chaplain
Active Member 2022
Most Dedicated Member
|
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 2,364
USA
|
|
I take it you don't believe in forgiveness, mercy, or the power of God to convert and to use us again when we've committed grave errors. Forgiveness does not require reliefe from consequences. A church treasurer who steals funds can be forgive, but that person should never handle denominational funds again. They have demonstrated a weakness and the chruch should protect them from being placed again in that situation.
Gregory
May God's will be done.
|
|
|
|
|
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
|
|
|
