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Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #146307
10/26/12 08:22 AM
10/26/12 08:22 AM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno
Paul once believe he was perfect righteous and blameless against the law. ............"as to the righteousness before the law, blameless" (Phil. 3:6). This is said when he was a Pharisee named Saul.

After his conversion, he find out so many sins in him, which he came to know from the commandment "Do not covet". He thought he understood the law well as a Pharisee and thus stand perfect before the Law, but he admitted "I live apart from the law once".

After his conversion he JUST knew what sin is, and he found out that the law bring not life to him but death, because sin revive in him after his conversion and because of his sins he died. No wonder he admitted, as an apostle of God, "I am the chief of sinners." For sure he might feel so.

Romans 7.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid! Nay, I would not have known sin, but through the law; for I would not have known lust, except that the law had said, “Thou shalt not covet.”
8 But sin, taking occasion through the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence; for without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive apart from the law once, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died;
10 and the commandment, which was ordained to bring life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me and by it slew me.


The truth in this is very difficult for most people to comprehend, and yet it is a very important part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Jesus made it clear who will be counted righteous:

Luke 7
Quote:
36 Then one of the Pharisees asked Him to eat with him. And He went to the Pharisee’s house, and sat down to eat. 37 And behold, a woman in the city who was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at the table in the Pharisee’s house, brought an alabaster flask of fragrant oil, 38 and stood at His feet behind Him weeping; and she began to wash His feet with her tears, and wiped them with the hair of her head; and she kissed His feet and anointed them with the fragrant oil. 39 Now when the Pharisee who had invited Him saw this, he spoke to himself, saying, “This Man, if He were a prophet, would know who and what manner of woman this is who is touching Him, for she is a sinner.”

40 And Jesus answered and said to him, “Simon, I have something to say to you.”

So he said, “Teacher, say it.”

41 “There was a certain creditor who had two debtors. One owed five hundred denarii, and the other fifty. 42 And when they had nothing with which to repay, he freely forgave them both. Tell Me, therefore, which of them will love him more?”

43 Simon answered and said, “I suppose the one whom he forgave more.”

And He said to him, “You have rightly judged.” 44 Then He turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Do you see this woman? I entered your house; you gave Me no water for My feet, but she has washed My feet with her tears and wiped them with the hair of her head. 45 You gave Me no kiss, but this woman has not ceased to kiss My feet since the time I came in. 46 You did not anoint My head with oil, but this woman has anointed My feet with fragrant oil. 47 Therefore I say to you, her sins, which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little.

48 Then He said to her, “Your sins are forgiven.”

49 And those who sat at the table with Him began to say to themselves, “Who is this who even forgives sins?”

50 Then He said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you. Go in peace.”


Further in Luke 18:
Quote:
9 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #146321
10/26/12 03:40 PM
10/26/12 03:40 PM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Mr Saptenno,

This is a very important subject, and I want to be perfectly clear to you what you are doing...

You are accusing Paul of committing a sin, yet you have not produced what that sin is. This is contemptible in the heavenly court.

If you are correct, supply the evidence, if you are wrong, you are bearing false witness against an apostle.

Weigh your words carefully.

To my knowledge Paul was even the one to correct Peter for being two faced in front of other Jews and new converts of the Gentile origin. So Paul's clarity in truth was sharper, and when Peter realized his error, he supported what Paul said and repented for spearheading a revolt against the truth.

In the quote you use against Paul, when he said in 1 Timothy 1:15(ESV) "The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost" he was talking about his past. He was thanking Jesus in praise for saving him from himself. Giving him a new life, a new beginning.


If he was talking about his past, why did he say: "I am?" Why not "I was?" Saying "I am", when he wrote this letter, he was talking of his present condition, whatever sin or sins he had done and still doing it, make him could not say "I was."

Is there a miss-interpretation from the original Greek word?

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #146322
10/26/12 03:50 PM
10/26/12 03:50 PM
J
James Saptenno  Offline
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Active Member 2012
Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2000
Posts: 1,157
Jakarta, Indonesia
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno

Pauline epistle is all what grace could say for sinners saved by grace, a progressive walk with the Spirit to overcome sin.


You still have not given evidence that you claim that Paul was sinning after conversion.

The way you use Romans 7 is questionable beyond belief.

"Paul’s Marvelous Change —Paul says that “as touching the law”—as far as outward acts were concerned—he was “blameless”, but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, when he looked into the holy mirror, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by a human standard, he had abstained from sin, but when he looked into the depths of God’s law, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation, and confessed his guilt. He did not go away from the mirror and forget what manner of man he was, but he exercised genuine repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. He was washed, he was cleansed. He says, “I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.” {6BC 1076.5}
Sin then appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem was gone. He became humble. He no longer ascribed goodness and merit to himself. He ceased to think more highly of himself than he ought, and he ascribed all the glory to God. He was no longer ambitious for greatness. He ceased to want to avenge himself, and was no longer sensitive to reproach, neglect, or contempt. He no longer sought earthly alliance, station, or honor. He did not pull others down to uplift himself. He became gentle, condescending, meek and lowly of heart, because he had learned his lesson in the school of Christ. He talked of Jesus and His matchless love, and grew more and more into His image. He bent his whole energy to win souls to Christ. When trial came upon him because of his unselfish labor for souls, he bowed in prayer, and his love for them increased. His life was hid with Christ in God, and he loved Jesus with all the ardor of his nature. Every church was dear to him; every church member was a person of interest to him; for he looked upon every soul as the purchase of the blood of Christ (The Review and Herald, July 22, 1890). {6BC 1076.6}

Pauls was a true conversion. What he meant in Romans 7 is that he thought he was righteous until he met Jesus, then he could see where he was wrong and he repented. This is how sin was revived not that he started to sin, but the remembrance of his past sins caused him to repent in sincerity of heart.


This quotes from EGW is correct I can accept that, but the question with Paul, did he live a continuous sinless perfect life ever after his conversion or not? reading his epistle in Romans 7, I doubt about it, seeing that he still serving two masters, the law with his mind and sin with his body.

He shouted:"24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" Again in present tense.

But thanks God, through Jesus Christ, he was always forgiven and stand righteous in Him because of his faith.

Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: James Saptenno] #146324
10/26/12 04:28 PM
10/26/12 04:28 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: James Saptenno
[quote=jamesonofthunder]
If he was talking about his past, why did he say: "I am?" Why not "I was?" Saying "I am", when he wrote this letter, he was talking of his present condition, whatever sin or sins he had done and still doing it, make him could not say "I was."

Is there a miss-interpretation from the original Greek word?


There is no problem with the Greek here.

Paul's greatest weakness was his earnest desire for salvation, and gaining many with him. He had this strange notion, which he had learned from Christ, that he might remain a sinner for the first five thousand years in heaven, or there would not be any place for him there. Paul is hoping that you and I understand this as well.

I fear that in case anyone gets the notion that after a while in Heaven he can manage himself for the rest of eternity so he does not need a savior any more, he would go the same way as Lucifer. But there is not much danger of that, because nobody gets to Heaven unless he commits himself so fully to the Savior Jesus Christ, that his commitment will last for ever. But it helps to read the Gospels and the writings of Paul to understand that message. And Ellen White is of the same opinion.

Our eternal life is only obtainable through an eternal connection with the only source of LIFE, through Jesus Christ. Without that we remain lost sinners, but with that we are saved sinners.

I have not given any texts here. I expect the honest Bereans will look that up themselves. We need to study the Word for ourselves, and not rely on anybody else.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Johann] #146327
10/26/12 05:47 PM
10/26/12 05:47 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
Look at what Mrs White said about this exact quote "wretched man".

"Paul realized his weakness, and well he might distrust his own strength. Referring to the law, he says, “The commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.” He had trusted in the deeds of the law. He says, concerning his own outward life, that as “touching the law” he was “blameless”; and he put his trust in his own righteousness. But when the mirror of the law was held up before him, and he saw himself as God saw him, full of mistakes, stained with sin, he cried out, “O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?” {LHU 40.2}
Paul beheld the Lamb of God that taketh away the sin of the world. He heard the voice of Christ saying, “I am the way, the truth, and the life; no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” He determined to avail himself of the benefits of saving grace, to become dead to trespasses and sins, to have his guilt washed away in the blood of Christ, to be clothed with Christ’s righteousness, to become a branch of the Living Vine. He walked with Christ, and Jesus became to him—not a part of salvation, while his own good deeds were another part, but—his all in all, the first and last and best in everything. He had the faith that draws life from Christ, that enabled him to conform his life to that of the divine example. This faith claims nothing for its possessor because of his righteousness, but claims everything because of the righteousness of Christ. {LHU 40.3} (The Signs of the Times, November 24, 1890).

Paul was talking about his past sins, and after he was humbled he dwelt in Christ


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #146329
10/26/12 08:36 PM
10/26/12 08:36 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
It would be prudent for those who were wrong to repent for their indiscretion. But I wont hold my breath.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: jamesonofthunder] #146332
10/26/12 10:14 PM
10/26/12 10:14 PM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
It would be prudent for those who were wrong to repent for their indiscretion. But I wont hold my breath.


Good, my friend, because if you hold your breath too long it would be a serious sin!


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Johann] #146341
10/27/12 01:47 AM
10/27/12 01:47 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
To Mr Septanno; I was praying about this conversation and your assertion that Paul was sinning after conversion, and then I saw a friend of mine online giving a sermon and he in essence gave me the answer to our dispute.

Go to Romans chapter 8, just after the quote you insist details Paul's inability to stay away from sin. It says...
Romans 8 (ASV)
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus made me free from the law of sin and of death.

3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

4 that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

5 For they that are after the flesh mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

And the chapter ends with

39 ...nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Johann] #146342
10/27/12 01:55 AM
10/27/12 01:55 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline OP
Banned
SDA
Active Member 2015

3500+ Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 3,613
USA
Johann, are you serious? Your a retired pastor and you make jokes on these subjects against someone defending the message of truth? You sure have posted a lot this month out of no where and start taking me on like you have a mission?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: "How to attain Christian perfection" [Re: Johann] #146346
10/27/12 09:07 AM
10/27/12 09:07 AM
Johann  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2014

Retired Pastor
3000+ Member
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Quote:
you sin against God in thus using the time which should be spent in devotion to Him.19 {AH 416.3}


Quote:
Take time to arrange your room, and keep it in order. We do not wish you to apply yourselves too closely to your studies, neither do we wish you to work hard. But a life of idleness is a life of sin.


Jesus teaches us that we sin in our thoughts, even if there is no action.

We sin when we do not use our time right

We sin when we do not have order in our things.

Are we fully free from sin?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
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