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Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Daryl] #148124
12/11/12 03:11 AM
12/11/12 03:11 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: Daryl
How thoroughly converted was the thief on the cross?

As converted as Peter, Paul, and John.

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148127
12/11/12 05:51 AM
12/11/12 05:51 AM
asygo  Offline
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Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Taking a little peek...

Was Paul converted on the road to Damascus? Or was he converted after his 3-year study in Arabia?

To the desert of Arabia he went, there to study the Scriptures and to learn of God. He emptied his soul of prejudices and traditions that had shaped his life, and received instruction from the Source of truth. {Ed 65.3}


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148128
12/11/12 01:33 PM
12/11/12 01:33 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
I am impressed with the passages I posted above. Conversion is the fruit of thorough indoctrination. People who are not thoroughly converted are sources of perplexity at home and at church.

I know a lot of people who were thoroughly indoctrinated and are not converted. OTOH, when someone is converted, he/she will accept every ray of light which reaches him/her and walk in that light.

The light given me is, that instead of presenting the subject of health reform abruptly to a congregation of unbelievers, our laborers should first reach the hearts by presenting Christ and Him crucified. Many unbelievers know no more of health reform than do babies. True, the laborers must dwell on reforms; but let them first endeavor to touch and tender the hearts of the people and lead them to be converted. After conversion, men and women will be ready to receive instruction in regard to further reforms, and will permit their teachers to lead them along step by step into the full light of the present truth. {KC 142.8}

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: asygo] #148133
12/11/12 04:37 PM
12/11/12 04:37 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Posts: 22,256
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Taking a little peek...

Was Paul converted on the road to Damascus? Or was he converted after his 3-year study in Arabia?

To the desert of Arabia he went, there to study the Scriptures and to learn of God. He emptied his soul of prejudices and traditions that had shaped his life, and received instruction from the Source of truth. {Ed 65.3}

But God in His providence not only spared Saul's life, but converted him, thus transferring a champion from the side of the enemy to the side of Christ. {AA 124.2}

After his escape from Damascus, Paul went to Jerusalem, about three years having passed since his conversion. {AA 128.3}

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148134
12/11/12 05:02 PM
12/11/12 05:02 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
After conversion, men and women will be ready to receive instruction in regard to further reforms, and will permit their teachers to lead them along step by step into the full light of the present truth. {KC 142.8}

Good point. Conversion can occur before people learn everything there is to know about vegetarianism. Of course a diet in harmony with the Bible is not a sin. "The sins that were practised before conversion, are to be put off, with the old man. With the new man, Christ Jesus, are to be put on 'kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering.' {SD 300.3} "The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. {LHU 123.4}

Again, as you can see, the idea that people who experience true, genuine, thorough conversion in God's appointed way ignorantly retain some of their cultivated sinful habits is not supported in the Bible or the SOP. "All selfishness is covetousness, and is, therefore, idolatry. {CS 223.1} "All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. {YRP 289.3}

Quote:
No one can be omnipotent, but all can cleanse themselves from filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of the Lord. God requires every soul to be pure and holy. We have hereditary tendencies to wrong. This is a part of self that no one need carry about. It is a weakness of humanity to pet selfishness, because it is a natural trait of character. But unless all selfishness is put away, unless self is crucified, we can never be holy as God is holy. There is in humanity a tendency to suspicious imagining, which circumstances quicken into lively growth. If this trait is indulged, it spoils the character and ruins the soul. {FLB 140.4}

God requires moral perfection in all. Those who have been given light and opportunities should, as God's stewards, aim for perfection, and never, never lower the standard of righteousness to accommodate inherited and cultivated tendencies to wrong. Christ took upon Him our human nature, and lived our life, to show us that we may be like Him. . . . We ought to be holy even as God is holy; and when we comprehend the full significance of this statement, and set our heart to do the work of God, to be holy as He is holy, we shall approach the standard set for each individual in Christ Jesus. {FLB 140.5}

For "if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new" (2 Corinthians 5:17). That which was objectionable in the character is purified from the soul by the love of Jesus. All selfishness is expelled, all envy, all evil-speaking, is rooted out, and a radical transformation is wrought in the heart. "The fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law" (Galatians 5:22, 23). "The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace" (James 3:18). {YRP 289.3}

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148137
12/11/12 07:44 PM
12/11/12 07:44 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Away with cake. Persons may kill themselves with sweets. More harm is done to children by sweets than by anything else. {1SAT 12.2}

Is that a sin?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148138
12/11/12 07:46 PM
12/11/12 07:46 PM
Rosangela  Offline
5500+ Member
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 6,154
Brazil
Quote:
Good point. Conversion can occur before people learn everything there is to know about vegetarianism.

And about testing truths. And, according to EGW, it's not that it can occur, it's that it should occur.

Present Testing Truths After Conversion.--You should not feel it your duty to introduce arguments upon the Sabbath question as you meet the people. If persons mention the subject, tell them that this is not your burden now. But when they surrender heart and mind and will to God, they are then prepared candidly to weigh evidence in regard to these solemn, testing truths.--Letter 77, 1895. {Ev 485.2}

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Rosangela] #148139
12/11/12 08:25 PM
12/11/12 08:25 PM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
All acts of injustice that tend to shorten life; the spirit of hatred and revenge, or the indulgence of any passion that leads to injurious acts toward others, or causes us even to wish them harm (for "whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer"); a selfish neglect of caring for the needy or suffering; all self-indulgence or unnecessary deprivation or excessive labor that tends to injure health--all these are, to a greater or less degree, violations of the sixth commandment. {PP 308.5}

Converted people never do any of these, such as working too much at the office, or maybe staying up late to post on an online discussion? Is eating white bread "self-indulgence"? Is eating only whole wheat bread "unnecessary deprivation"?

Is it "self-indulgence" to eat too much salt and "unnecessary deprivation" to not eat enough? Do all converted people know exactly how much salt to eat?

Now change salt to ice cream. How about that?

Actually, that's easy. Converted people do not eat ice cream, unless it is vegan ice cream. And not very cold, because very cold food is bad for you.

Food should not be eaten very hot or very cold. If food is cold, the vital force of the stomach is drawn upon in order to warm it before digestion can take place. Cold drinks are injurious for the same reason; while the free use of hot drinks is debilitating. {CD 106.3}

This means that converted people do not drink ice water either.

So, if someone wants to be baptized, offer them ice water. If they take it, then they are not ready. Does that sound about right?


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: gordonb1] #148141
12/12/12 12:07 AM
12/12/12 12:07 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
[Baptismal] Candidates who have grown to manhood and womanhood should understand their duty better than do the younger ones; but the pastor of the church has a duty to do for these souls. Have they wrong habits and practices? It is the duty of the pastor to have special meetings with them. Give them Bible readings, converse and pray with them, and plainly show the claims of the Lord upon them. Read to them the teaching of the Bible in regard to conversion. Show what is the fruit of conversion, the evidence that they love God. Show that true conversion is a change of heart, of thoughts and purposes. Evil habits are to be given up. The sins of evil-speaking, of jealousy, of disobedience, are to be put away. A warfare must be waged against every evil trait of character. Then the believing one can understandingly take to himself the promise: "Ask, and it shall be given you." Matthew 7:7. 544 {CCh 297.3}

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148143
12/12/12 12:08 AM
12/12/12 12:08 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Somehow all the passages posted above harmonize with the truth.

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