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Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148385
12/25/12 12:23 PM
12/25/12 12:23 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Quote:
This distinction demonstrates the difference between rebirth and conversion. Nevertheless, there are times when Ellen White uses the two words interchangeably. Context is important.

Rebirth refers to the first time you are truly converted. But Ellen White is clear that we should experience conversion every day.

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: kland] #148391
12/25/12 04:30 PM
12/25/12 04:30 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Kland
M: Did Jesus command us not to eat in accordance with the dietary laws in the Bible?

K: Your question seems awkward, "command us not to eat". Could you re-word it?

Is there conflict between what is written in the Bible and what is written in the SOP? Does the Bible allow what the SOP disallows? Is it a sin to eat meat in accordance with the Bible?

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Rosangela] #148392
12/25/12 04:34 PM
12/25/12 04:34 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
M: This distinction demonstrates the difference between rebirth and conversion. Nevertheless, there are times when Ellen White uses the two words interchangeably. Context is important.

R: Rebirth refers to the first time you are truly converted. But Ellen White is clear that we should experience conversion every day.

Amen! Do you make a distinction between beginning the process of converting to obeying everything Jesus commanded and completing the process? If so, which Bible and SOP passages do you use?

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148410
12/26/12 03:03 PM
12/26/12 03:03 PM
K
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Kland
M: Did Jesus command us not to eat in accordance with the dietary laws in the Bible?

K: Your question seems awkward, "command us not to eat". Could you re-word it?

Is there conflict between what is written in the Bible and what is written in the SOP? Does the Bible allow what the SOP disallows? Is it a sin to eat meat in accordance with the Bible?
No there isn't. Do you think there is? Do you think the Bible is not the spirit of prophecy? The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: kland] #148500
12/29/12 03:15 AM
12/29/12 03:15 AM
asygo  Offline
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Thus it is with the truly righteous man. He is unconscious of his goodness and piety. Religious principle has become the spring of his life and conduct, and it is just as natural for him to bear the fruits of the Spirit as for the fig tree to bear figs or for the rosebush to yield roses. His nature is so thoroughly imbued with love for God and his fellow men that he works the works of Christ with a willing heart. SL 13.1


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: asygo] #148510
12/29/12 04:11 PM
12/29/12 04:11 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Those who are really seeking to perfect Christian character will never indulge in the thought that they are sinless. {RH, January 18, 1881 par. 2}

True sanctification is an entire conformity to the will of God. Rebellious thoughts and feelings are overcome, and the voice of Jesus awakens a new life, which pervades the entire being. {RH, January 18, 1881 par. 7}

True sanctification is a daily work, continuing as long as life shall last. Those who are battling with daily temptations, overcoming their own natural tendencies, and seeking for holiness of heart and life, make no boastful claims of holiness. They are hungering and thirsting for righteousness. Sin appears to them exceedingly sinful. {RH, January 18, 1881 par. 9}

Self-denial, self-sacrifice, benevolence, kindness, love, patience, fortitude, and Christian trust are the daily fruits borne by those who are truly connected with God. {RH, January 18, 1881 par. 12}

Thus it is with the truly righteous man. He is unconscious of his goodness and piety. Religious principle has become the spring of his life and conduct, and it is just as natural for him to bear the fruits of the Spirit as for the fig-tree to bear figs, or for the rose-bush to yield rose. His nature is so thoroughly imbued with love for God and his fellow-men that he works the works of Christ with a willing heart. {RH, January 18, 1881 par. 15}

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148511
12/29/12 04:18 PM
12/29/12 04:18 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Ellen White writes eloquently about truly converted, genuinely sanctified people. She freely writes about them. But therein lies a dichotomy. She never described herself in such terms. I have no problem applying to her what she writes about converted, sanctified people; but she never does. Neither should we.

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Mountain Man] #148512
12/29/12 05:55 PM
12/29/12 05:55 PM
E
Elle  Offline
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I did not read all this thread but did read the Biblical texts and comments related to it that was brought in this discussion. Very few -- only two posts quoting scriptures.

To find any truth of any matter we need to go to the Law(Torah) and see what the Lord has define in the plan of salvation and has establish as a foundation of truth. This is what we need to hear/obey, meditate, compare, test against, and recognize that this is the Lord’s heart and ways at work in man and world events throughout history.

Recently, I read a very good post by Myron on Adventist Online pertaining to this discussion. He was answering a sister's struggle with her husband taking up smoking shortly after baptism and being fully indoctrinated prior. Myron basically addresses conversion with the 3 baptisms(justification, sanctification, and becoming perfect) according to the TYPE shown in the Laws of Moses.

A proper understanding of sanctification by which is the process how the Lord removes sin from us... is what we fail to grab and apply in our own struggles.

Here's how Joyce formulated her question on AO
Originally Posted By: Adventist Online Question
"what do you do when your mate, (husband/wife), is baptized, takes the vows, which include denying harmful substance to the body, and after baptism some time shortly after baptism, takes up again the very thing they pledged in front of the pastor, congregation and God, they would denounce for their life."
The following is Myron's reply. I have added the Titles to ease up the reading and for quick references.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I wrote a response to this on the first day you posted it but did not post that response because it was too negative. I'll try again because there are some things that are just too important to this and do not appear to have been addressed.

Sanctification is a Process
First off, sanctification is a process, and that process will last your entire life in this corrupt flesh. You do not get fully sanctified, then be baptized as a witness to that sanctification and you do not come up out of the water perfected either. The idea that we can be perfect in this life comes from taking certain statements out of context from the writings of Paul, James and John. All three make some mention of the fact that it is impossible for the spirit of God within us to sin. We are to identify with that spirit because once we have accepted Jesus into our lives that is who we are; we are no longer the man of sin. However, that man of sin is still within us, and at first is much stronger than the spirit which is within us, which is born in us as an infant, if we believe the types God has given us. Furthermore, Paul tells us in Galatians 4 that this spiritual child is under the supervision of the soulish servants of God until such time as it is mature enough to inherit. So in a sense, the man of sin is very much in charge of us even after we have been converted.

A short digression is necessary here because of the way we are taught these things. Much tradition of men is in place in our doctrines, and these traditions cause us a great deal of difficulty. The Bible teaches that we are three part beings, body, soul and spirit. Spirit and soul are NOT the same thing as so many Christians believe, and the Bible is extremely clear about this. We are not truly alive unless all three parts are present in us, and at our physical birth we do not really possess the spirit of God, at least, not in its fullness. We gain a greater measure of this spirit when we are born again, and later at other major steps in our life, but until we are fully mature "sons" of God when the feast of Tabernacles is fulfilled in us (see 2 Corinthians 5) we may be alive spiritually, but we do not yet have the abundant life that Jesus speaks of.

3 Levels of Baptism:
There are three levels of baptism, illustrated by the three major feasts of Israel, as well as other symbols God gave us. Two of the three are discussed at length in scripture, the third is not discussed in as much detail, but it is there as well.

#1 Baptism of John = Passover = Unleavened bread = Justification = Circumcision of the Heart = Infant
The first is called the baptism of John in the New Testament. It is also called the baptism of repentance in the New Testament. It is illustrated in the feast days by Passover. The main lesson of Passover is justification by faith in the blood of the lamb. At this time we are born again, and receive a very low level anointing of the Holy Spirit, but many of the other biblical symbols for this show that the spirit does not actually indwell us at this time. That comes later, and this later anointing was the main emphasis of teaching in the New Testament.

The circumcision ceremony on the eighth day after birth is closely related to Passover since circumcision was the symbol showing the son was justified. It is the first of the sonship ceremonies. Since the Christian must be circumcised in his heart all Christians go through this spiritual process when they are born again, but the son being circumcised is an infant spiritually, no matter his physical age. This is part of the importance of this ceremony being done on the eighth day, even if that is the Sabbath day. There was no higher priority.

#2 Baptism of Holy Spirit = Pentecost = Leaven bread = Hearing God voice for ourself = process Laws written on our Hearts = Child
The second level of baptism is illustrated by the day of Pentecost (the Feast of Weeks). In the New Testament it is called the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It commemorates the day God came down to speak to Israel at Sinai. It is also illustrated by the Bar Mitzvah (son of the law) ceremony. It is at this point that the Holy Spirit comes down as a tongue of fire and indwells us, but at this time we only receive a down-payment of the spirit, not its fullness. It is at this point where we begin to hear God's voice, and we will continue to hear it if we obey it. At Sinai Israel refused to hear and ran from God telling Moses to go up the mountain to hear God's voice and come tell them what God said. So the ten commandments they did hear were written on the stone of their hearts and placed inside the ark, but the rest of the law, which was written on flesh, remained outside their hearts (the ark), and only a very few received the heart of flesh before Pentecost was fulfilled in 33 AD. They still had only the heart of stone when God commented on this through the prophet Ezekiel (Ezekiel 11 and 36)

By hearing God's voice and obeying the word that is heard the law is written on your heart and the heart of stone is removed and replaced with a heart of flesh. This is the work of Sanctification.

#3 Baptism of the Fullness of the Holy Spirit = Feast of Tabernacle = Father reveals His chosen Sons and gives them authority = Receiving our inheritance
The third baptism is seen with Jesus baptism. It is illustrated by the Feast of Tabernacles, the dedication of the priests and the adoption ceremony at which the father declares publicly that his son is now fully mature and has the full authority to do anything in his fathers name because he knows his father and his father' business so well that he would not do anything that his father would not do. Jesus put it this way, "I only do that which I see my father do and say that which I hear my father say." When the Father gave Jesus the signet of his power he put it this way, "This is my beloved son in whom I am very pleased." Later, on the mount of transfiguration, God repeated this ceremony saying, "This is my beloved son; obey him."

The feast of Tabernacles prophesies of receiving the inheritance, the glorified body, as well as the revealing of the sons of light. The dedication of the priests prophesies of the revealing of the sons of light and of the pouring of the fullness of the Holy Spirit over them (having a half gallon or more oil poured over their heads.) Only Jesus has received this level of baptism so far. The rest of us await this when the feast of Tabernacles is fulfilled at or after the second coming.

1st and 2nd Baptism does not remove the Mortal Body
One other side issue that is important to understand in this matter is the source of sin. There is bad translating in Romans and it makes many things harder to understand. English translations of Romans 5:12 tell us that we will all die because we have sinned. This is not what Paul actually said, and the rest of the discussion in this passages point out that error. Paul has told us that because of Adam's sin we all have inherited mortality. We are all born mortal. In verse 12 what Paul really says is because we are mortal therefore we sin.

Baptism does not take the mortal body away, at least, not the first two levels of baptism, therefore, we cannot expect to be sinless after baptism. No matter how much we fight the Old Man of Sin, he will always be connected to this body and will seek to be its ruler. Because the new man of the spirit is not born fully mature he is not able to rule the body at first against the strength of the old man of sin. Thus we will always be fighting our sinful nature and though our spiritual nature will gain in strength and keep us from sinning more and more often, until we die or are changed, we will fall prey to the flesh.

Sanctification is a Learning Process
The second point is that Sanctification is a learning process. The more you know about how people learn the more effective your witness will be in these matters, but you can still work adequately without extensive training in educational theory. Another poster spoke at about rehabilitation from addiction. This is also a learning process; this is why talk therapy is considered such an important part of any rehabilitative process. But there is a difference between the two approaches. Basic education is about going from a state of general ignorance to a state of knowledge; in most cases the person with an addiction has one or more issues that are best described as lies which must be unlearned before we can learn the truth and gain a more abundant life. Either way, we are going from a lack of knowledge about God and his creation to a fuller knowledge of the truth, and the truth sets us free.

To live by every Word of G-d
In this regard, it becomes very important to understand biblical teaching regarding Sanctification, and that is something Christianity has largely rejected. It is also important to understand the meaning of the phrase "every word which proceeds from the mouth of God." This is not limited to the written word, which is the bread that is to be a part of every meal. The first recorded word God spoke is light, yet Isaiah 45:7 tells us that the darkness we see already there in Genesis 1 was also created by God, so light was not actually the first word he spoke.

We are to live by every word God speaks, not simply the words he spoke in the past or limited further, those he had the prophets write down. All of creation is the word of God and is to be studied as such. Science studies a huge portion of God's word that the church ignores or, in many cases, actively denies. Science does not always properly study creation, but they do have a greater understanding of this truth than the church does much of the time, so this portion of God's word must be studied as well when we look for answers to the matters God brings before us during our sanctification. However, for our purposes here I will look at biblical teaching, not science. I simply point out science because it will be included in the path to overcoming many addictions, including the addiction to nicotine.

Pentecost and the Bronze Serpent = Sin needs to be EXAMINE so to be removed from us
There are a number of symbols for sanctification in scripture, and they shed quite a bit of light on the process if we study them and understand them. The main ones I wish to look at are Pentecost and the bronze serpent. In different ways these both show us the same thing.

The primary sacrifice on the day of Pentecost is not the ram; it is the two loaves of Leavened Bread. Pentecost is the First Fruits offering of the wheat harvest, so the bread is the primary sacrifice. This is the only sacrifice in which leaven in allowed, and in this one it is required. That alone makes this ceremony strange and should tell us that it deserves special study. God does not make exceptions lightly. We already know that leaven represents sin, which is why it was banned from all offerings except this one. In this one the leaven had first been exposed to the fire and killed before the offering was acceptable to God.

The fire represents God’s law and God’s character. There are a number of texts that support this symbolism and they are easy enough to find that I will only list a few. First, in Deuteronomy 4 and 32 Moses makes reference to the fire being God’s law. Deuteronomy 4 makes numerous reference to this saying God was in the fire, God spoke from the fire, that his word comes out of the fire and even saying he is the fire. Deuteronomy 32 says his law is fiery. Strangely enough, considering how our theologians view the law, it is interesting that this verse tells us God is holding his fiery law in his right hand. Traditionally we symbolize blessings as coming from the right hand, and cursing or other negative judgments coming from God’s left hand. Thus the fiery law is the source of his blessings.

In Jeremiah 5 God tells Jeremiah that his word in Jeremiah’s mouth will be a fire. In Jeremiah 23 he once again tells us that his word (law) is a fire. And years earlier, the angel purified the words of Isaiah making him a suitable vessel to be a prophet of God by placing a coal from the altar in his mouth. God’s word is his fire as well as his sword, and it refines us, burning away the flesh, cutting the bone from the marrow, leaving the good and solid things of the spirit and killing and burning up the flesh, wood, hay and straw – the old man of sin.

So on the day of Pentecost, leaven is reintroduced to the camp, but it is dead leaven. The people had to remove all leaven from the camp for the seven days of the feast of unleavened bread. The rabbis tell us the purpose of the unleavened bread is the same as if you were eating soup and crackers because you have an upset stomach. It is healing. But once the digestive system is healed we start eating more substantial foods again. And on the day of Pentecost we begin eating leavened bread, but it is bread that has been baked, killing the leaven, not dough with live leaven still in it. This is very significant.

Leaven (sin) becomes an important part of our spiritual food at this point, but that does not mean we are to actively sin. Instead we examine the sins of our past and the sins in other people’s lives, not to glorify it, but to discover why sin is so exceedingly sinful. Not only does eating leavened bread show us this examination of sin, but the bronze serpent shows this as well. Pentecost is about removing sin from us; the bronze serpent is about healing us from the effects of the sin. In both cases we must examine the thing that makes us sick. If we do not we will not get well.

Yes we are told in the Bible that the serpent represents Jesus. These are Jesus own words. This is because it is Jesus and him only that can remove sin from our lives, and him only who can heal us from the effects of sin. But we find this healing by following the process he teaches. With the serpent the process was Moses made a representation of the serpent that was biting the people and they were then required to look upon it (examine it) in order to be healed. It is here where so many fail.

Removing all Leaven(sin) at Passover and Covering our Sins
We know well the admonition to remove all leaven from the camp for Passover (justification.) The problem is we attempt to bury our past sins (atonement is a covering, and it is necessary that they be covered at first.) However, at some time we have to actually start dealing with the sins and remove them from our lives. That we fail to do so is a problem for us. Those covered over sins (or other issues from childhood) fester and cause greater problems if they are not brought out into the light and properly dealt with.

Doctrine of G-d Forgetting our sins : Cognitive or Legal
There is a big problem with Christian doctrine concerning God forgetting our sins. We consider this to be a cognitive issue, when it is actually a legal issue. As soon as we are justified God forgets our sins and will never hold them against us again, but this is a legal matter, not a cognitive matter. God does not forget our sins cognitively, and as part of the sanctification process will eventually bring every one of them up before us again. Perhaps he does not bring up every individual act, but he does show us the state of our mind. If we have not truly repented of something that is brought out from under the covering and set before us. Yet even if we have truly repented, those past issues must also come out into the light once we are healthy enough to deal with them. If they are not the sins are not actually removed from us.

This is the kind of thing that talk therapy deals with on a regular basis and, in fact, is the primary purpose of talk therapy. Not all the sins dealt with in this manner will be our own sins; they will often be the sins of others against us, sins we thought were forgiven long ago. Yet even these need to be dealt with in the proper manner. If sin, whether our own or those of others against us, are simply covered over they will eventually cause problems at some point in the future. These problems often manifest themselves as some form of addiction that we are unable to overcome until the root problems are discovered and dealt with appropriately. Thus there is a need to study the temple rituals and the stories that also illustrate the proper means of dealing with sin, and to study them through New Covenant eyes in order to see the processes that are applicable to us today and not simply rituals of killing animals and putting blood here or there in the temple. Let’s not forget that we are that temple, the altar is our hearts and the blood is the soul of Jesus.

It is not my intention to do a deep study of these things here; this post is already very long. However, I can be of assistance if you wish to do a general study of this type of thing later. I do not intend to tell you specifically how to deal with your husband’s problems because he would need to be directly involved in such a study. But there are general things you should know and can teach your husband. They will also help you understand your obligations to him in this matter, the first if which is don’t nag, which others have already addressed. The second is to hold him responsible for his behavior, which when done in a fleshly manner ends up involving a considerable amount of nagging. I would suggest you study Ezekiel 3 and 33 for more specific counsel on how to balance these requirements.

Paul’s thorn and Grace
There is one more thing I wish to point out before closing this. Paul gives us some very specific instruction that God gave him regarding these things. In 2 Corinthians 12 he tells us of his own struggle with some on-going sin in his life. Most Christians refuse to admit that Paul had such struggles, and since Paul did not name the specific sin he was struggling with most people try to find other things that may have been this thorn in the side he had to struggle with, very often naming a specific person that gave him much difficulty for a period of time. This misses the point of his discussion completely and also points out the poor level of understanding of specific legal terminology God uses in scripture. Paul was setting out a general principle, and probably if we knew the full details of his life we would be able to identify a great number of specific thorns in his side, no matter how we define it.

The term grace speaks of favor and when used in a legal/moral context refers to a state of not being under penalty for sin. It does not necessarily mean what the church teaches, and church teaching misses a great deal of what this term does mean. Both the Hebrew and Greek terms translated grace mean favor, and that is a very common translation for those words in scripture. So a simple definition of grace is favor. A simple definition of when that favor is granted is not quite so easy. Of course, it is granted when there never has been any sin, but it is also granted when the full penalty of sin has been paid.

Debt and Liabilities Laws
Here we must get into God’s equivalent of criminal law which is his debt and liability laws. All sins are counted as debt, so in God’s system it does not matter if you borrowed money and can’t pay it back or if you stole the money. There is no separate means of handling the problem if it is defined (by man) as a civil problem or a criminal problem. The means of dealing with the problem is exactly the same and involves monetizing the value of the damage done and repaying double. This is not a hard and fast rule since there are a few sins that require a death penalty where a person cannot repay a debt double. If I kill you I cannot restore two lives to you; if I kidnap you I have stolen your life, and once again, though I can restore you to your family, I cannot restore a second one of you to them. If I commit adultery with someone’s wife, I cannot restore double her love to her husband. These are matters which man cannot adjudicate so God tells us to delay adjudication of them to the great white throne judgment where He will judge the most difficult matters himself. In addition to these difficult things there are also some sins that require four and five times the restitution of what has been taken, and admission of guilt always brings a minimum factor of mercy into the matter. That minimum factor of mercy means the restitution is reduced from 200% to 120% of what was taken.

Redeemer and Payment of the Debt
Payment for this debt is due at the time of adjudication. If the debtor is not able to repay at that time his property is confiscated and sold off. If that is not enough to repay the debt he and his family are sold into bond servitude. The bond is created for the value of the remaining debt and the bond is then auctioned off. The bond defines the amount of time you must work for the person who has purchased the bond. The limiting factor here is the Jubilee. We will not discuss that much at this point. The person who bought your bond is the redeemer. You must work for your redeemer until the bond is paid off or the year of Jubilee, whichever comes first.

Redeemer’s Right to be the Victim and cannot extend Grace to you
The redeemer in this case is not necessarily a kinsman. A kinsman redeemer is more likely to allow you to remain on your own property and work that property for him. More importantly, the kinsman is also more likely to forgive a portion or all of your debt; most definitely you can expect better treatment from a kinsman than from someone who has redeemed you for his own profit. The redeemer is simply the person who bought your debt. At this point the victim is paid, and since he has been paid must now forgive you and extend his grace to you. The redeemer has bought the right to be the victim and is the only person who is not allowed to extend his grace to you. Anyone else holding you responsible for this sin is sinning against you.

Under the Law and Under Grace and Forgiveness
During the time you are working off this bond you are considered to be under the (penalty) of the law. This is what under the law means. Only your victim (or your redeemer) can keep you under the law. In your relationships to everyone else you are supposed to be under grace since you have not given them cause against you. If they refuse to grant you their grace they are sinning against you as I said above. God, being the creator of all things owns all things. By this definition any sin against any part of his creation is a sin against him. This is why all our sins are sins against God regardless of who or what else may be a victim of that sin. This is also why he is able to forgive all our sins, even when there are other victims, but by becoming our redeemer as well, he is given the right by repaying our victims, and by becoming our kinsman-redeemer he increases his obligation to forgive.

First Types of Forgiveness : Forbearance = Sabbath days and Years
There are multiple types of forgiveness seen in the Bible. The most common is what we would call forbearance. This is the type of forgiveness seen in the Sabbath days and years. At those times we are forgiven the need to work to repay our debts. The time is ours to spend with God and working for the benefit of others. The highest level of Sabbath is the Jubilee. In that Sabbath all debts are forgiven in their entirety. At the end of the Sabbath day or Sabbath year the bondservant is to return to his master and go back to working off his debt. In the Jubilee, the bondservant is set free permanently, and returns to his own inheritance. This is the ultimate goal of the Sabbath and sets the type apart from the reality. Since the reality is not seen in the Sabbath day the day cannot be the antitype as SDA’s wish to teach. It remains a very important type that sets us free for one day out of every seven to keep our eyes on the ultimate goal of the Sabbath rest.

Separating forbearance from forgiveness (using man’s definitions) there are two primary types of forgiveness found in the bible. The first is the forgiveness which must be given when a debt has been paid in full. Once a debt is paid in full it is as if the debtor has never had a debt and even the victim-redeemer must grant him grace. To fail to do so would be a theft from him. So the sinner is no longer under the law and is now under grace, and it is as if he has never sinned.

Second Type of Forgiveness: Mercy
The second type of forgiveness also defines mercy. In this forgiveness the debt is forgiven without repayment, or can be forgiven in part without repayment. This is mercy. God requires that there be no judgment without mercy, but he also requires that no mercy be given to the unmerciful. This is the meaning behind the parable in Matthew 18 in which the king first forgave, then rescinded the forgiveness of the servant owing 10,000 talents. Because that servant refused to be merciful the mercy already granted to him was revoked. This principle adds emphasis to my earlier statement that when God forgets our sins it is a legal matter, not a cognitive matter. If God had cognitively forgotten the debt of this servant he would not have been able to reinstate that debt when the servant proved himself unmerciful. The debt had been forgotten, and the servant was under grace as if he had never owed a debt; but that debt was then reinstated, showing there was still a record of it in some way.

Grace is not Forgiveness – Back to Paul’s Thorn
Both kinds of forgiveness return us to a state of being under grace and we are treated as if we had never sinned, so we see that grace though grace is not forgiveness because it is something more, it is like forgiveness where there has been. So let’s look at Paul’s statement in light of this. Paul asked God three times to remove this thorn from his side. God’s answer was, “My grace is sufficient.” There would have been no need for God’s grace if this thorn in Paul’s side were some person who was tormenting him in whatever way. The grace was necessary because Paul was struggling with a sin.

At this point we get into what most people here will call opinion since it is not easily proven with scripture and I don’t know how. But I have seen this played out in my own life and in the lives of others. Science has also tended to agree with much of this, but some has not been studied scientifically so even there I am on shaky ground.

Temptations not removed until we Pass the Test in Learning -- Examining Sin without succumbing
As I said before, most Christian teaching in these matters has considerable trouble moving beyond the Feast of Unleavened Bread and into Pentecost. We have no trouble telling everyone to just say no to sin, but once they are healed enough to examine the problem without succumbing to it we still refuse to tell them to examine the sin and learn from it. I have found that when this happens a relapse is much more likely because God does want us doing this detailed examination of our sins. It is the only way to learn from them. For most people their deep bible study when faced with temptation is an effort to shift the attention away from that test, not to examine scripture regarding what it has to say about that area in which we are being tested (also translated tempted).

The temptation is not taken away until we have passed the test. Ignoring the material is not how we pass a test. In Hosea 4:6 God says, “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge.” Because they refuse to gain this knowledge God keeps the test before them until they do. The longer the test remains with them the more likely they are to succumb to the sin. In my opinion this is what was happening with Paul. Whether he actually succumbed or not is not the point, but since God’s grace was necessary it is apparent that he did succumb from time to time just as your husband does. But he was not learning the lesson or had still more to learn about that area, so God refused to remove the temptation.

It becomes very easy to justify all of our sins in this way. I know this all too well, and yes, I am guilty. We are not supposed to succumb to the temptations. It is possible to learn the lesson by observing the sin in others or by observing our own past sins. But I have seen in my own life and in the lives of others, the return of sins that seemed to have been overcome, and I have seen that the reason was because I had to study my relationship with God in light of the area being tested. Only when there is adequate understanding, and the eradication of many of the lies the church has taught us since the beginning are those temptations once again removed from me. And it is never necessary that I succumb to the temptation. When it happens that is my own weakness, or worse, refusal to be obedient.

Finally there is the matter of what we teachers call the learning spiral. We can never learn everything about a subject all at once. We must learn a portion, then be given time to assimilate the knowledge that we are given. A math teacher will teach a young child addition before he teaches anything else, and counting had to be learned before that. There is a sequence that must be followed. The basics must be learned first or you are wasting your time trying to teach the more advanced knowledge. Additionally, if the child has been taught that 2+2=3, and has not been taught to verify his results by counting for himself, there will be numerous other problems in his learning until he has unlearned this knowledge and been taught the correct value of 2+2.

The learning spiral, which God also uses, means we will visit the same material many times over, but that there will be differences and greater revelation each time we visit it. Subtraction is just addition in reverse. Multiplication is just an advanced form of addition, and division is just the reverse of multiplication. We simply keep adding to the tools in our pouch and the more advanced tools greatly simplify our tasks.

Understanding the Cause of our Sins with Scripture
Applying this to your husband’s smoking may not be easy. A major problem with medicine, mental health treatment and spirituality is our preference to treat symptoms rather than actual causes of problems. Smoking is a symptom, as is any other form of substance abuse including over eating. The trick is to discover the cause and study what God has to teach us regarding that cause in all his words, not just in scripture, although it is dangerous to ignore scripture when doing this study.

During Struggles G-d’s Grace is sufficient
All this takes time, and during that time the temptation may well stay before you and seem overwhelming. The weakness of the flesh guarantees that we will sometimes give in to these temptations even though God always provides the means of escape with them. That means is often not what we think it is, and always takes some work to discover. So while we struggle with this temptation God’s grace is sufficient, and you need to remember this at all times when dealing with your husband’s difficulties. If you do not, you will succumb to the temptation to nag him, and then you become a stumbling block to his efforts, not a helpmeet at his side. You do not want to be counterproductive in this way.

Pray[Meditate] Without Ceasing
Good luck and continue in prayer. But remember, prayer involves so much more than the church teaches us. Paul told us to pray without ceasing. The Old Testament included this instruction as well but there a different term was used – meditation.

Deuteronomy 6 4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[a] 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be upon your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them on your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

Joshua 1 6 “Be strong and courageous, because you will lead these people to inherit the land I swore to their forefathers to give them. 7 Be strong and very courageous. Be careful to obey all the law my servant Moses gave you; do not turn from it to the right or to the left, that you may be successful wherever you go. 8 Do not let this Book of the Law depart from your mouth; meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do everything written in it. Then you will be prosperous and successful. 9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. Do not be terrified; do not be discouraged, for the Lord your God will be with you wherever you go.”


Blessings
Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Elle] #148673
01/02/13 04:04 PM
01/02/13 04:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Too bad this thread got sidelined.

Re: Do We Really Understand Conversion? [Re: Elle] #148701
01/03/13 06:19 PM
01/03/13 06:19 PM
asygo  Offline
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Active Member 2023

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Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Elle
In 2 Corinthians 12 he tells us of his own struggle with some on-going sin in his life.

I haven't finished reading the post, but this one jumped out at me.

Though I doubt that Paul had no sin, I also doubt that his thorn was sin. He said, "Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ’s sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong." I doubt he would boast or take pleasure in sin.

I am reminded of another statement from Paul, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!"


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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