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Re: How "free" are we after all? #14942
07/09/05 05:24 PM
07/09/05 05:24 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
If they had accepted him, wouldn't that mean that there would be no sacrifice for us? Wouldn't that make salvation impossible? I think maybe we are taking a parable a little too literal.
That is another misconception.

Luk 19:41 And when he was come near, he beheld the city, and wept over it,
Luk 19:42 Saying, If thou hadst known, even thou, at least in this thy day, the things which belong unto thy peace! but now they are hid from thine eyes.

Re: How "free" are we after all? #14943
07/09/05 05:56 PM
07/09/05 05:56 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
If God hadn't already said that Jesus would be crucified perhaps the Father would have sacrificed Jesus on an altar. The story of Abraham and Isaac seems to imply this. Of course, it didn't turn out that way, and the Father knew in advance exactly how it would play out - in minute detail, as evidenced by the prophecies. Jesus played His role perfectly. He followed the prophetic blueprint to the "T". He didn't have a choice. He had to fulfill the prophecies to save us.

Mark
8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and [of] the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

John
12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

John
13:18 I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
13:19 Now I tell you before it come, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am [he].

John
15:25 But [this cometh to pass], that the word might be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause.

John
17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John
18:9 That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none.
18:32 That the saying of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying what death he should die.

John
19:24 They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did.
19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

Re: How "free" are we after all? #14944
07/09/05 11:38 PM
07/09/05 11:38 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
My mother-in-law tells me that “God knows” if she will be saved or not. Beyond that she has not given him ability to speak, and I think rightly so.

Why should she?

Re: How "free" are we after all? #14945
07/10/05 05:02 AM
07/10/05 05:02 AM
Ikan  Offline OP
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
" perhaps the Father would have sacrificed Jesus on an altar.

Whoa...This is not consistant with your pre-programmed concepts, MM Plus it's still a talisman of your visions of a very bloody pagan Father image. Sigh...but if you insist that the Father murdered Christ, that's your choice. Murder is pre-planned, correct?

You still have not expplain EGW's meaning of "risk."

Re: How "free" are we after all? #14946
07/11/05 03:56 AM
07/11/05 03:56 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Lay off the lashings, please. I asked about Ezekiel earlier in this thread, so, what about it - did he have a choice or not? And Jesus, did He have a choice? Was ditching man and the plan really an option? In what way did He risk all? You tell me. The idea that Jesus could have failed, or could have refused to save man, doesn't make sense to me. That would mean God lied to the prophets, who foretold nearly every major move Jesus made. And, how do you explain the following prophecy?

John
12:37 But though he had done so many miracles before them, yet they believed not on him:
12:38 That the saying of Esaias the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake, Lord, who hath believed our report? and to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
12:39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,
12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Re: How "free" are we after all? #14947
07/10/05 05:40 PM
07/10/05 05:40 PM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
Joh 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Who is the "He" and who is the "I"?

Re: How "free" are we after all? #14948
07/11/05 12:18 AM
07/11/05 12:18 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
Who? God, on both counts.

Isaiah
6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here [am] I; send me.
6:9 And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.
6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.
6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away, and [there be] a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
6:13 But yet in it [shall be] a tenth, and [it] shall return, and shall be eaten: as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance [is] in them, when they cast [their leaves: so] the holy seed [shall be] the substance thereof.

Re: How "free" are we after all? #14949
07/11/05 12:20 AM
07/11/05 12:20 AM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
quote:
I asked about Ezekiel earlier in this thread, so, what about it - did he have a choice or not? And Jesus, did He have a choice? Was ditching man and the plan really an option? In what way did He risk all? You tell me.

Re: How "free" are we after all? #14950
07/11/05 03:20 AM
07/11/05 03:20 AM
J
John Boskovic  Offline
Dedicated Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 1,196
Ontario
quote:
Ezekiel
3:17 Son of man, I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me.
3:18 When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
3:19 Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
3:20 Again, When a righteous [man] doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
3:21 Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous [man], that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ezekiel’s message tells us how important it is to God that the wicked be warned of his wickedness so that such may turn and be saved and not perish. This underscores the un-predetermined outcome, and responsibility. So much is hinged on “IF”. God uses “if” all the time; and you want to say there is no “if “ with God.

Ezekiel’s choices were no different than anybody else’s.

Re: How "free" are we after all? #14951
07/11/05 04:21 AM
07/11/05 04:21 AM
Ikan  Offline OP
Very Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,664
Plowing
MM No one is lashing you! I am presenting positions you have stated yourself. You still stand by them, and are responsible for them, correct? I cannot pretend you don't as everything you write is based on your own stated beliefs.

You hold me responsible for my thoughts and therefore I will not complain when called to answer for them.

How about answering my question, please:

"Murder is pre-planned, correct?"

Even my muslim friends see this clear distinction.

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