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Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: jamesonofthunder] #150427
03/06/13 05:04 PM
03/06/13 05:04 PM
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kland  Offline
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Quote:
Would you say that satan(the adversary) is the spiritual father or the physical father or both?
I can't remember if she said Jesus was a physical son of God in the past or if this is about to be the next topic.

Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: jamesonofthunder] #150429
03/06/13 06:09 PM
03/06/13 06:09 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: jamesonofthunder
GC this was the perfect quote and I mean it in the way you meant it.

"Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." (John 8:44)

The devil is the Father of all those born into sin, all of the descendants of Adam are born slaves to sin, and Jesus came to set us free from this prison of death.

So this quote proves that Satan, though not the creator, is the father of the wicked if they want to believe it or not. They are the seed of the devil, which goes to the beginning in Eden when the curse was pronounced. When God said "I will put enmity between your seed and her seed" this is the two classes that are spoken of as the 'Son's of God' and the 'son's of men'.
Would you say that satan(the adversary) is the spiritual father or the physical father or both?


Though we have fallen and are in corrupted flesh, we will ever only have one creator, thank you Father for this foundation, amen.

It's all about the connect between heaven and earth.

Without connection to the Father, we are dead spiritually, so this fallen condition, so unsatisfying, is the realm of Satan.

He cuts us off from heaven through our parents, and then through sin if we let him.

Satan controls the flesh if we are unrepentant, but God is still the owner. That is why HE has the right to destroy to cleans.


GOD DESTROYS NO MAN.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: APL] #150430
03/06/13 06:51 PM
03/06/13 06:51 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
GOD DESTROYS NO MAN.


Uh Oh. Now we do have another topic.

Men destroy themselves, but God still has to execute justice. Haven't you heard of God's strange act? You do not know God as you should yet claim to be a teacher!

"To sin, wherever found, “our God is a consuming fire” (Hebrews 12:29). In all who submit to His power the Spirit of God will consume sin. But if men cling to sin, they become identified with it. Then the glory of God, which destroys sin, must destroy them.—The Desire of Ages, 107 (1898). {LDE 279.1}

If God allowed His Son to suffer His wrath for our sins, what makes you think He would not destroy us?

"To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. “As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked.” Ezekiel 33:11.... Yet He will “by no means clear the guilty.” “The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked.” Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord’s reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God’s account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {FLB 338.5}
After God has done all that could be done to save men, if they still show by their lives that they slight offered mercy, death will be their portion; and it will be a dreadful death, for they will have to feel the agony that Christ felt upon the cross. They will then realize what they have lost—eternal life and the immortal inheritance. {FLB 338.6}

You do know that fire rains down out of heaven to destroy the wicked don't you?

"When the first beams of the morning dawn, the inhabitants of Sodom are not aware of the departure of Lot and the angels. They were determined to abuse the strangers, but as they come to the house of Lot, it is found vacant, and the hour of doom comes upon them. And the Lord rains fire and brimstone upon the city, and the beautiful plain that looked like Paradise when the angels passed over it, now looks like a parched and blackened desert. The smoke of the burning goes up like the smoke of a great furnace, and the whole heaven is illuminated with the flames of the great conflagration. Sodom has become a place of desolation and ruin. {ST October 16, 1893, par. 5}


Ezekiel 9 (KJV)
9 He cried also in mine ears with a loud voice, saying, Cause them that have charge over the city to draw near, even every man with his destroying weapon in his hand.

2 And, behold, six men came from the way of the higher gate, which lieth toward the north, and every man a slaughter weapon in his hand; and one man among them was clothed with linen, with a writer's inkhorn by his side: and they went in, and stood beside the brasen altar.

3 And the glory of the God of Israel was gone up from the cherub, whereupon he was, to the threshold of the house. And he called to the man clothed with linen, which had the writer's inkhorn by his side;

4 And the Lord said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.

5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:

6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

8 And it came to pass, while they were slaying them, and I was left, that I fell upon my face, and cried, and said, Ah Lord God! wilt thou destroy all the residue of Israel in thy pouring out of thy fury upon Jerusalem?

9 Then said he unto me, The iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The Lord hath forsaken the earth, and the Lord seeth not.

10 And as for me also, mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity, but I will recompense their way upon their head.

11 And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me."

Didn't the Father send the angel of death? I suppose you think it was Satan?

"Next morning a message was brought by the prophet Gad: “Thus saith the Lord, Choose thee either three years’ famine; or three months to be destroyed before thy foes, while that the sword of thine enemies overtaketh thee; or else three days the sword of the Lord, even the pestilence, in the land, and the angel of the Lord destroying throughout all the coasts of Israel.” {EP 543.3}

"And they were required to separate themselves and their children from the Egyptians, and gather them into their own houses; for if any of the Israelites were found in the houses of the Egyptians, they would fall by the hand of the destroying angel. They were also directed to keep the feast of the passover for an ordinance, that when their children should inquire what such service meant, they should relate to them their wonderful preservation in Egypt: That when the destroying angel went forth in the night to slay the first-born of man, and the first-born of beast, he passed over their houses, and not one of the Hebrews that had the token of blood upon their door-posts was slain. And the people bowed their heads and worshiped, grateful for this remarkable memorial given to preserve to their children the remembrance of God’s care for his people. There were quite a number of the Egyptians who were led to acknowledge, by the manifestations of the signs and wonders shown in Egypt, that the God of the Hebrews was the only true God. They entreated to be permitted to come to the houses of the Israelites with their families upon that fearful night when the angel of God should slay the first-born of the Egyptians. They were convinced that their gods whom they had worshiped were without knowledge, and had no power to save or to destroy. And they pledged themselves to henceforth choose the God of Israel as their God. They decided to leave Egypt, and go with the children of Israel to worship their God. The Israelites welcomed the believing Egyptians to their houses. {1SP 200.1}

I have gone through this argument with the leaders of our conference and they wouldn't listen so I suppose you will be just like them APL?


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: APL] #150435
03/06/13 08:39 PM
03/06/13 08:39 PM
Johann  Offline
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Quote:
God destroys no man. Everyone who is destroyed will have destroyed himself. Everyone who stifles the admonitions of conscience is sowing the seeds of unbelief, and these will produce a sure harvest. By rejecting the first warning from God, Pharaoh of old sowed the seeds of obstinacy, and he reaped obstinacy. God did not compel him to disbelieve. The seed of unbelief which he sowed produced a harvest of its kind. Thus his resistance continued, until he looked upon his devastated land, upon the cold, dead form of his first-born, and the first-born of all in his house and of all the families in his kingdom, until the waters of the sea closed over his horses and his chariots and his men of war. His history is a fearful illustration of the truth of the words that “whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.” Galatians 6:7. Did men but realize this, they would be careful what seed they sow. {COL 84.4}


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: Johann] #150449
03/07/13 03:22 AM
03/07/13 03:22 AM
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So APL do you agree that your use of that quote was in error?

If you look at the whole quote you borrowed that statement from as posted by Johann, "GOD DESTROYS NO MAN", it is obvious you were trying to use that statement in error, because that same paragraph later mentions the first born slain by the angel of God and the chariots and men of war being swallowed up by the Red Sea, did God not have something to do with those events?

Pharaoh and the disobedient first born chose their destruction but God executed the sentence by swallowing them up in the Red Sea or destroying them by the angel of death.

"Those who do not choose to accept of the salvation so dearly purchased, must be punished. But I saw that God would not shut them up in hell to endure endless misery, neither will He take them to heaven; for to bring them into the company of the pure and holy would make them exceedingly miserable. But He will destroy them utterly and cause them to be as if they had not been; then His justice will be satisfied. He formed man out of the dust of the earth, and the disobedient and unholy will be consumed by fire and return to dust again. I saw that the benevolence and compassion of God in this matter should lead all to admire His character and to adore His holy name. After the wicked are destroyed from off the earth, all the heavenly host will say, “Amen!” {EW 221.1}

So, if this is taken seriously, it is saying if you don't appreciate this issue you will not be lead to admire His character and adore His name.

"When Sennacherib, the haughty Assyrian, reproached and blasphemed God, and threatened Israel with destruction, “it came to pass that night, that the angel of the Lord went out, and smote in the camp of the Assyrians an hundred fourscore and five thousand.” There were “cut off all the mighty men of valor, and the leaders and captains,” from the army of Sennacherib. “So he returned with shame of face to his own land.” 2 Kings 19:35; 2 Chronicles 32:21. {TA 10.2}

125,000 men in one night killed by the angel of the Lord.

"Angels of God were sent to do the work of destruction, —Manuscript Releases 21:66. {TA 241.2}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: jamesonofthunder] #150468
03/07/13 04:45 PM
03/07/13 04:45 PM
APL  Offline
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The law of Jehovah was burdened with needless exactions and traditions, and God was represented as severe, exacting, revengeful, and arbitrary. The very attributes that belonged to the character of Satan, the evil one represented as belonging to the character of God. Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature. {ST, January 20, 1890 par. 6}

[ALL] Sickness, suffering, and death are work of an antagonistic power. Satan is the destroyer; God is the restorer. {MH 113.1}

The words spoken to Israel are true today of those who recover health of body or health of soul. "I am the Lord that healeth thee." Exodus 15:26. {MH 113.2}

The desire of God for every human being is expressed in the words, "Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth." 3 John 1:2. {MH 113.3}

He it is who "forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases; who redeemeth thy life from destruction; who crowneth thee with loving-kindness and tender mercies." Psalms 103:3-4. {MH 113.4}

When Christ healed disease, He warned many of the afflicted ones, "Sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." John 5:14. Thus He taught that they had brought disease upon themselves by transgressing the laws of God, and that health could be preserved only by obedience. {MH 113.5}


Read the Scriptures carefully, and you will find that Christ spent the largest part of His ministry in restoring the suffering and afflicted to health. Thus He threw back upon Satan the reproach of the evil which the enemy of all good had originated. Satan is the destroyer; Christ is the Restorer. {13MR 213.2}

It is written:
Exodus 12:23 For the LORD will pass through to smite the Egyptians; and when he sees the blood on the lintel, and on the two side posts, the LORD will pass over the door, and will not suffer the destroyer to come in to your houses to smite you.

Psalms 78:49 He cast on them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.

Hebrews 11:28 Through faith he kept the passover, and the sprinkling of blood, lest he that destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

Hosea 11:8 How shall I give you up, Ephraim? how shall I deliver you, Israel? how shall I make you as Admah? how shall I set you as Zeboim? my heart is turned within me, my repentings are kindled together.

Romans 1:18-32
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it to them.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.
24 Why God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonor their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up to vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenant breakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: APL] #150470
03/07/13 07:11 PM
03/07/13 07:11 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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It's difficult for people to understand this because it is true that every sinner is destroyed by his or her own choice, but not by his or her own power. The power is in the hands of One who is greater--the same One who empowered them with their freedom to choose for themselves their own way and end. While they have chosen destruction, God gives them their choice.

The sinner does not have the power to bring about his or her own final death. This is the interesting thing. For example, consider the following:

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. (Revelation 9:6)


Now, let's get back to the topic. smile

It is interesting that at the time of the Flood, sinners also did not wish to die, but were given the choice before the door closed. They chose their destruction, but they did not administer it to themselves. At that point, they wished to be free from the consequences of their choice, but it was too late. This will be repeated.

This is why Jesus came to set people free--to preach to the captives of sin. The first step is to know the truth. John 14:6, John 8:32, and John 17:17 give us the sequence. Once we know the truth, it sets us free, then sanctifies us. It is this truth that saves. The truth is that Jesus has paid our penalty and we may accept salvation of Him as a free gift, merely by choosing to place our faith in Him, and by surrendering our will to His. This is the gospel.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: Green Cochoa] #150471
03/07/13 08:08 PM
03/07/13 08:08 PM
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No soul is ever finally deserted of God, given up to his own ways, so long as there is any hope of his salvation. "Man turns from God, not God from him." Our heavenly Father follows us with appeals and warnings and assurances of compassion, until further opportunities and privileges would be wholly in vain. The responsibility rests with the sinner. By resisting the Spirit of God today, he prepares the way for a second resistance of light when it comes with mightier power. Thus he passes on from one stage of resistance to another, until at last the light will fail to impress, and he will cease to respond in any measure to the Spirit of God. Then even "the light that is in thee" has become darkness. The very truth we do know has become so perverted as to increase the blindness of the soul. {MB 93.1}

We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: APL] #150472
03/07/13 08:22 PM
03/07/13 08:22 PM
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The Lord cometh out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity” Isaiah 26:21.

"A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits. There are forces now ready, and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere. {GC 614.2}

I have used this quote dozens of times to defend the truth from men in our church that have no idea how righteous our God is to be able to make these commands. God has the right to destroy the unrighteous, He can do it through His angels, wicked angels or directly from His own hand if He wanted.

When Uzzah put forth his hand to steady the ark when it looked as if it would fall who struck him dead? Was it Satan? Look it up!

Are you going to say, like certain very influential leaders in our flock, that the plagues are sent by demons ?

The righteous angels of heaven hold the seven vials in heaven and one of them spoke to John. Are you going to say these were demons? I have fought in the name of the lord to defend the church from such heresy!!!!

God has shown me that it is wicked for men who claim our faith to do the surmising that you just did. You take a piece of scripture from the midst of a quote that obviously does not support your theory yet you are bold enough to pull it out of context and not be scorched by your conscience when you see what you are doing. How can you do that?

Case in point... You quoted Heb 11:28 and you quoted this much...

"By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel."

So in this quote you are obviously believing that the destroying angel in Egypt was Satan correct? Well it wasn't.

"They entreated to be permitted to come to the houses of the Israelites with their families, upon that fearful night when the angel of God should slay the first-born of the Egyptians. They were convinced that their gods whom they had worshiped were without knowledge, and had no power to save or to destroy. And they pledged themselves to henceforth choose the God of Israel as their God. They decided to leave Egypt, and go with the children of Israel to worship their God. The Israelites welcomed the believing Egyptians to their houses. {3SG 223.1}

"By faith he left Egypt, not fearing the king’s anger; he persevered because he saw him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the application of blood, so that the destroyer of the firstborn would not touch the firstborn of Israel. 29 By faith the people passed through the Red Sea as on dry land; but when the Egyptians tried to do so, they were drowned.

So who drowned the Egyptians? Was it the devil?

Exodus 15(KJV)

Then sang Moses and the children of Israel this song unto the Lord, and spake, saying, I will sing unto the Lord, for he hath triumphed gloriously: the horse and his rider hath he thrown into the sea. 2 The Lord is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.
3 The Lord is a man of war: the Lord is his name.
4 Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea. 5 The depths have covered them: they sank into the bottom as a stone. 6 Thy right hand, O Lord, is become glorious in power: thy right hand, O Lord, hath dashed in pieces the enemy. 7 And in the greatness of thine excellency thou hast overthrown them that rose up against thee: thou sentest forth thy wrath, which consumed them as stubble. 8 And with the blast of thy nostrils the waters were gathered together, the floods stood upright as an heap, and the depths were congealed in the heart of the sea.
9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy them.

So who drowned them? The invisible God before Israel held the waters through the command of Moses and the rod of Power, then when the people made it safely through the Egyptians who were pursuing them were drowned by GOD! So the Egyptians destroyed themselves by not repenting of their sins and God executed judgment. God destroyed them in righteousness to save the righteous.

Who drowned the world by flood? Did Satan? He thought he was going to be die in the turmoil, so it wasn't him.

"The plea may be made that a loving Father would not see His children suffering the punishment of God by fire while He had the power to relieve them. But God would, for the good of His subjects and for their safety, punish the transgressor. God does not work on the plan of man. He can do infinite justice that man has no right to do before his fellow man. Noah would have displeased God to have drowned one of the scoffers and mockers that harassed him, but God drowned the vast world. Lot would have had no right to inflict punishment on his sons-in-law, but God would do it in strict justice. {LDE 241.2}

How can you harmonize your understanding with this statement Brother?

Who killed Jesus? Was it Satan?

And then you quote Romans 1:18-32 obviously in condemnation of someone trying to correct you.

"Who will say God will not do what He says He will do?" {LDE 241.3}

You do.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Who were the 'spirits in prison'? [Re: APL] #150473
03/07/13 08:25 PM
03/07/13 08:25 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: The Bible
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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