HOME CHAT ROOM #1 CHAT ROOM #2 Forum Topics Within The Last 7 Days REGISTER ENTER FORUMS BIBLE SCHOOL CONTACT US

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine Christian Family Fellowship Forums
(formerly Maritime SDA OnLine)
Consisting mainly of both members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church
Welcomes and invites other members and friends of the Seventh-day Adventist Church to join us!

Click Here To Read Legal Notice & Disclaimer
Suggested a One Time Yearly $20 or Higher Donation Accepted Here to Help Cover the Yearly Expenses of Operating & Upgrading. We need at least $20 X 10 yearly donations.
Donations accepted: Here
ShoutChat Box
Newest Members
ekoorb1030, jibb555, MBloomfield, Dina, Nelson
1323 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums118
Topics9,189
Posts195,525
Members1,323
Most Online5,850
Feb 29th, 2020
Seventh-day Adventist Church In Canada Links
Seventh-day Adventist Church in Canada

Newfoundland & Labrador Mission

Maritime Conference

Quebec Conference

Ontario Conference

Manitoba-Saskatchewan Conference

Alberta Conference

British Columbia Conference

7 Top Posters(30 Days)
Rick H 16
kland 15
Daryl 4
March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Member Spotlight
Kevin H
Kevin H
New York
Posts: 625
Joined: November 2004
Show All Member Profiles 
Today's Birthdays
No Birthdays
Live Space Station Tracking
Here is a link to show exactly where the Space Station is over earth right now: Click Here
Last 7 Pictures From Photo Gallery Forums
He hath set an harvest for thee
Rivers Of Living Water
He Leads Us To Green Pastures
Remember What God Has Done
Remember The Sabbath
"...whiter than snow..."
A Beautiful Spring Day
Who's Online
3 registered members (Karen Y, 2 invisible), 2,795 guests, and 4 spiders.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Previous Thread
Next Thread
New Reply
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 10 11
Was Jesus born without sin? #152521
05/18/13 10:21 PM
05/18/13 10:21 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
and how did it come about. We have the following to use as base for this discussion...

Man and woman were made in the image of God with individuality, the power and freedom to think and to do. Though created free beings, each is an indivisible unity of body, mind, and spirit, dependent upon God for life and breath and all else. When our first parents disobeyed God, they denied their dependence upon Him and fell from their high position under God. The image of God in them was marred and they became subject to death. Their descendants share this fallen nature and its consequences. They are born with weaknesses and tendencies to evil. But God in Christ reconciled the world to Himself and by His Spirit restores in penitent mortals the image of their Maker. Created for the glory of God, they are called to love Him and one another, and to care for their environment.—Fundamental Beliefs, 7

Adam's descendants share the sinfulness of his nature. In prayer, David said, "In Your sight no one living is righteous" (Ps. 143:2; cf. 14:3). "'There is no one who does not sin'" (1 Kings 8:46). And Solomon said, "Who can say, 'I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin'?" (Prov. 20:9); "There is not a just man on earth who does good and does not sin" (Eccl. 7:20). Job exclaims, "'Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? No one!'" (Job. 14:4). David said, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me" (Ps. 51:5). The New Testament is equally clear, stating that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23) and that "if we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8). And Paul stated that "the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Rom. 8:7, 8).

So if man, though created perfect and in God's image, and placed in a perfect environment, through Adam and Eve became transgressors of Gods Law and inherited sin, how did Jesus who became fully flesh, not have sin at birth.

Last edited by Rick H; 05/18/13 11:52 PM.
Reply Quote
Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Rick H] #152523
05/18/13 11:11 PM
05/18/13 11:11 PM
Alpendave  Offline
Banned Member
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 178
Deer Park, WA
At what point in our lives do we need Jesus' death on the cross to cover us? In other words, do newborns who die before committing acts of sin inherit eternal life on the basis of their innocence or on the basis of Jesus substitutionary death on their behalf? Had Jesus failed in His mission, would infants who died before sinning still inherit eternal life, or be lost with those whose sin, on the part of Jesus' hypothetical failure, could never be covered?

Reply Quote
Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Alpendave] #152527
05/18/13 11:49 PM
05/18/13 11:49 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Dave Mullbock
At what point in our lives do we need Jesus' death on the cross to cover us? In other words, do newborns who die before committing acts of sin inherit eternal life on the basis of their innocence or on the basis of Jesus substitutionary death on their behalf? Had Jesus failed in His mission, would infants who died before sinning still inherit eternal life, or be lost with those whose sin, on the part of Jesus' hypothetical failure, could never be covered?
Do not ALL human beings need salvation? ALL?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Reply Quote
Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: APL] #152529
05/19/13 01:13 AM
05/19/13 01:13 AM
Alpendave  Offline
Banned Member
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 178
Deer Park, WA
Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Dave Mullbock
At what point in our lives do we need Jesus' death on the cross to cover us? In other words, do newborns who die before committing acts of sin inherit eternal life on the basis of their innocence or on the basis of Jesus substitutionary death on their behalf? Had Jesus failed in His mission, would infants who died before sinning still inherit eternal life, or be lost with those whose sin, on the part of Jesus' hypothetical failure, could never be covered?
Do not ALL human beings need salvation? ALL?


The answer is obvious, I think. However, the implications of that answer are the main reason I cannot subscribe to the idea that Jesus was born with a sinful humanity if what is meant by that is that He possessed self-originating temptations to sin. If he, in His infancy, was just like every other human being as far as being predisposed to disobedience at birth, then either such a condition is exempt from the penalty of sin, or Jesus must have been exceptional in His innate humanity. Otherwise, He would need a savior.

Reply Quote
Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Alpendave] #152533
05/19/13 04:04 AM
05/19/13 04:04 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Jesus took on our sinful condition.
Isaiah 53:3-4 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely he has borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

Matthew 8:17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bore our sicknesses.

He literally bore our sickness.

John 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Reply Quote
Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: APL] #152538
05/19/13 05:57 PM
05/19/13 05:57 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
SDA
Charter Member
Active Member 2019

20000+ Member
Joined: Oct 2000
Posts: 22,256
Southwest USA
The fact Jesus did not sin during the age of non-accountability is a mystery left unexplained.

Quote:
His birth was a miracle of God; for, said the angel, "Behold thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name Jesus. He shall be great and shall be called the son of the Highest; and the Lord shall give unto him the throne of his Father David: And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing that I know not a man? And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God." {13MR 18.2}

These words are not addressed to any human being, except to the Son of the Infinite God. Never, in any way, leave the slightest impression upon human minds that a taint of, or inclination to corruption rested upon Christ, or that He in any way yielded to corruption. He was tempted in all points like as man is tempted, yet He is called that holy thing. It is a mystery that is left unexplained to mortals that Christ could be tempted in all points like as we are, and yet be without sin. The incarnation of Christ has ever been, and will ever remain a mystery. That which is revealed, is for us and for our children, but let every human being be warned from the ground of making Christ altogether human, such an one as ourselves: for it cannot be. The exact time when humanity blended with divinity, it is not necessary for us to know. We are to keep our feet on the rock, Christ Jesus, as God revealed in humanity. {13MR 19.1}

I perceive that there is danger in approaching subjects which dwell on the humanity of the Son of the infinite God. He did humble Himself when He saw He was in fashion as a man, that He might understand the force of all temptations wherewith man is beset. {13MR 19.2}

The expression "the force of all temptations wherewith man is beset" must necessarily include "the clamors of our fallen nature."

Quote:
In our own strength it is impossible for us to deny the clamors of our fallen nature. Through this channel Satan will bring temptation upon us. Christ knew that the enemy would come to every human being, to take advantage of hereditary weakness, and by his false insinuations to ensnare all whose trust is not in God. And by passing over the ground which man must travel, our Lord has prepared the way for us to overcome. It is not His will that we should be placed at a disadvantage in the conflict with Satan. He would not have us intimidated and discouraged by the assaults of the serpent. "Be of good cheer," He says; "I have overcome the world." John 16:33. {DA 122.3}

Jesus passed over the same "ground". That is, He was tempted from within in the same way we are.

Reply Quote
Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Mountain Man] #152541
05/19/13 10:07 PM
05/19/13 10:07 PM
Alpendave  Offline
Banned Member
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 178
Deer Park, WA
The problem is that people construe these quotes to mean that Jesus was born with an inclination to rebellion. When clear statements to the opposite are brought up, then fabricated ideas such as the "higher-lower nature" arguments are brought in.

The issue is not whether Jesus had a pre- or post-fall humanity. It was post fall because, holistically speaking, the humanity He lived in had tremendous circumstantial disadvantages (what we blame when we sin) to what Adam in his unfallen state had. But to say that Jesus had innate, self-generated inclinations to sin is treading on ground which Sister White has warned us against treading on.


Last edited by Dave Mullbock; 05/19/13 10:08 PM.
Reply Quote
Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Alpendave] #152542
05/19/13 10:27 PM
05/19/13 10:27 PM
Alpendave  Offline
Banned Member
Full Member
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 178
Deer Park, WA
Testimonies for the Church, vol. 2, pp. 508, 509:
Quote:
He was unsullied with corruption, a stranger to sin; yet He prayed, and that often with strong crying and tears. He prayed for His disciples and for Himself, thus identifying Himself with our needs, our weaknesses, and our failings, which are so common with humanity. He was a mighty petitioner, not possessing the passions of our human, fallen natures, but compassed with like infirmities, tempted in all points even as we are. Jesus endured agony which required help and support from His Father.

Reply Quote
Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Alpendave] #152543
05/19/13 10:46 PM
05/19/13 10:46 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Now lets look at the following.......

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Luke 1:15
For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.

How do you read these verses......

Reply Quote
Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Alpendave] #152544
05/19/13 10:52 PM
05/19/13 10:52 PM
APL  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2020

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Jesus had no advantage over us, otherwise we would have an excuse.

"He who triumphed over the adversary of souls in the wilderness of temptation, understands what the Christian has to meet; for he has conquered the enemy in our behalf, and as an overcomer, he has given us the advantage of his victory, that we may be able to resist the temptations of the evil one." {RH, September 23, 1890 par. 1}

Jesus was an "overcomer".

What does it mean to you that He had a "post fall" nature?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Reply Quote
Page 1 of 11 1 2 3 10 11
Quick Reply

Options
HTML is disabled
UBBCode is enabled
CAPTCHA Verification



Sabbath School Lesson Study Material Link
Here is the link to this week's Sabbath School Lesson Study and Discussion Material: Click Here
Most Recent Posts From Selected Public Forums
Seven Trumpets reconsidered
by Karen Y. 03/27/24 09:35 AM
Are the words in the Bible "imperfect"?
by Kevin H. 03/24/24 09:02 PM
The Story of David and Goliath
by ProdigalOne. 03/23/24 08:06 PM
Global Warming Farce
by kland. 03/22/24 10:17 AM
Carbon Dioxide What's so Bad about It?
by kland. 03/21/24 12:34 PM
The Value of Bible Types
by TruthinTypes. 03/17/24 06:22 PM
Orion Which Every One on the Globe Can See
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:26 PM
'Prophet' Summons UFOs
by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 02:19 AM
Will You Take The Wuhan Virus Vaccine?
by dedication. 03/11/24 06:31 PM
Get That Razor Wire Up!
by kland. 03/05/24 12:49 PM
Messages for This Time
by ProdigalOne. 03/04/24 05:54 AM
The Lake of Fire is Hell
by Rick H. 03/02/24 05:01 PM
Adventist Agriculture
by kland. 02/29/24 12:33 PM
Most Recent Posts From Selected Private Forums of MSDAOL
The Wound Is Healed! The Mark Is Forming!
by Rick H. 03/27/24 10:36 PM
Are we seeing a outpouring of the Holy Spirit?
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:50 PM
Time Is Short!
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:45 PM
Climate Change and the Sunday Law
by Rick H. 03/24/24 06:42 PM
WHAT IS THE VERY END-TIME PROPHECY?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 06:03 PM
Digital Identity Control
by Rick H. 03/23/24 02:08 PM
A.I. - The New God?
by Rick H. 03/23/24 01:59 PM
Christian Nationalism/Sunday/C
limate Change

by ProdigalOne. 03/16/24 08:38 PM
Perils of the Emerging Church Movement
by Rick H. 03/16/24 06:30 PM
Is There A Connection Between WO & LGBTQ?
by Kevin H. 03/12/24 09:20 PM
A Second American Civil War?
by Daryl. 03/04/24 06:14 PM
Forum Announcements
Visitors by Country Since February 11, 2013
Flag Counter
Google Maritime SDA OnLine Public Forums Site Search & Google Translation Service
Google
 
Web www.maritime-sda-online.com

Copyright 2000-Present
Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine).

LEGAL NOTICE:
The views expressed in this forum are those of individuals
and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.1