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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: APL] #152545
05/20/13 01:17 AM
05/20/13 01:17 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Well there is no advantage if we have the same power to fill and sanctify and help us overcome, and we do...

John 3
King James Version (KJV)
1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Whether it happens at the womb or after you are born, we have the same power available to us. Thus Christ had no advantage..

1 Peter 1:23
Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Last edited by Rick H; 05/20/13 01:20 AM.
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Rick H] #152546
05/20/13 01:45 AM
05/20/13 01:45 AM
APL  Offline
SDA
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
And note the words in both John 3 and 1 Peter 1, being "born again", not of corruptible "seed", but incorruptible. And contrast that with Genesis 3:14-18.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Alpendave] #152558
05/20/13 03:51 PM
05/20/13 03:51 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Posts: 6,416
Midland
Originally Posted By: Dave Mullbock
At what point in our lives do we need Jesus' death on the cross to cover us? In other words, do newborns who die before committing acts of sin inherit eternal life on the basis of their innocence or on the basis of Jesus substitutionary death on their behalf? Had Jesus failed in His mission, would infants who died before sinning still inherit eternal life, or be lost with those whose sin, on the part of Jesus' hypothetical failure, could never be covered?
Of course if Jesus had failed, then do you think any one would be born? Do you think there would "be" anyone? Not sure the hypothetical question could possibly have a hypothetical answer.

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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: kland] #152562
05/20/13 06:30 PM
05/20/13 06:30 PM
APL  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
"Jesus' death on the cross" covers us? What? How does that happen? It does not. That might be true if we are in legal trouble. But we are not in legal trouble. We are in real trouble.

"The atonement of Christ is not a mere skillful way to have our sins pardoned; it is a divine remedy for the cure of transgression and the restoration of spiritual health. It is the heaven-ordained means by which the righteousness of Christ may be not only upon us, but in our hearts and characters."--Letter 406, 1906. {7ABC 464.2}

We must be born again. If Christ' death "covers us", then legally everyone is "off the hook". No need to be "born again". But that is not the case.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Rick H] #152579
05/21/13 09:56 PM
05/21/13 09:56 PM
asygo  Offline
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Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Rick H
So if man, though created perfect and in God's image, and placed in a perfect environment, through Adam and Eve became transgressors of Gods Law and inherited sin, how did Jesus who became fully flesh, not have sin at birth.

His Father was ... different from everyone else's.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: asygo] #152580
05/21/13 09:59 PM
05/21/13 09:59 PM
APL  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Rick H
So if man, though created perfect and in God's image, and placed in a perfect environment, through Adam and Eve became transgressors of Gods Law and inherited sin, how did Jesus who became fully flesh, not have sin at birth.

His Father was ... different from everyone else's.
That takes care of half of the issue. And knowing how mobile genetic elements move, that half would have been fully "infected" by the time He was born.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: asygo] #152581
05/22/13 12:23 AM
05/22/13 12:23 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Rick H
So if man, though created perfect and in God's image, and placed in a perfect environment, through Adam and Eve became transgressors of Gods Law and inherited sin, how did Jesus who became fully flesh, not have sin at birth.

His Father was ... different from everyone else's.
No, I strongly disagree, God is our Father also. Christ made that clear, and we are His children, so Christ was no different in that respect. Now, God in His great wisdom chooses as he pleases, and when the Holy Spirit comes and fills and makes strong even from the womb, who are we to question it.


Romans 11:33-34
King James Version (KJV)
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: Rick H] #152621
05/25/13 03:20 AM
05/25/13 03:20 AM
asygo  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Originally Posted By: Rick H
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Rick H
So if man, though created perfect and in God's image, and placed in a perfect environment, through Adam and Eve became transgressors of Gods Law and inherited sin, how did Jesus who became fully flesh, not have sin at birth.

His Father was ... different from everyone else's.
No, I strongly disagree, God is our Father also. Christ made that clear, and we are His children, so Christ was no different in that respect.

I strongly disagree with your disagreement. smile

John 8:39-47 is pretty clear that we do the deeds of our father. And remembering the days of my youth, and hearing the stories of my exploits as an infant and toddler, I can say with a fair amount of certainty that God was not my father. At least not for a significant portion of my life.

It is not correct to say, as many writers have said, that Christ was like all children. He was not like all children. Many children are misguided and mismanaged. But Joseph, and especially Mary, kept before them the remembrance of their child's divine Fatherhood. Jesus was instructed in accordance with the sacred character of His mission. His inclination to right was a constant gratification to His parents. {SD 134.3}

He talked and acted like other children and youth, except that He did no wrong. Sin found no place in His life. Ever He lived in an atmosphere of heavenly purity. . . . {TMK 30.4}


You may have had a vastly more positive experience, but I can say with certainty that Jesus was different from me.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: asygo] #152622
05/25/13 03:29 AM
05/25/13 03:29 AM
asygo  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2023

5500+ Member
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 5,583
California, USA
Plus, how many virgin births have there been? How many people have come into existence without the benefit of a human father and mother? I can only think of 3.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Was Jesus born without sin? [Re: asygo] #152626
05/25/13 06:20 AM
05/25/13 06:20 AM
Rick H  Offline OP
Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Rick H
Originally Posted By: asygo
[quote=Rick H]So if man, though created perfect and in God's image, and placed in a perfect environment, through Adam and Eve became transgressors of Gods Law and inherited sin, how did Jesus who became fully flesh, not have sin at birth.

His Father was ... different from everyone else's.
No, I strongly disagree, God is our Father also. Christ made that clear, and we are His children, so Christ was no different in that respect.

Originally Posted By: asygo
I strongly disagree with your disagreement. smile

John 8:39-47 is pretty clear that we do the deeds of our father. And remembering the days of my youth, and hearing the stories of my exploits as an infant and toddler, I can say with a fair amount of certainty that God was not my father. At least not for a significant portion of my life.

It is not correct to say, as many writers have said, that Christ was like all children. He was not like all children. Many children are misguided and mismanaged. But Joseph, and especially Mary, kept before them the remembrance of their child's divine Fatherhood. Jesus was instructed in accordance with the sacred character of His mission. His inclination to right was a constant gratification to His parents. {SD 134.3}

He talked and acted like other children and youth, except that He did no wrong. Sin found no place in His life. Ever He lived in an atmosphere of heavenly purity. . . . {TMK 30.4}


You may have had a vastly more positive experience, but I can say with certainty that Jesus was different from me.


By being born again we too can have the same 'inclination to right' and 'live in an atmosphere of heavenly purity', that is the key. Yet we don't ask for the transformation of the Holy Spirit, we don't seek the rebirth of the Spirit, we are too content to know about the 'theory' and don't put into action the 'gift' that we have available to be born again and be like Christ. Christ had the advantage from birth that we can also have and that is where we must choose just like Nicodemus..

Last edited by Rick H; 05/25/13 06:22 AM.
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