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Evangelicals Turning to Roman Catholic Contemplative Spirituality ... #153089
06/10/13 05:09 PM
06/10/13 05:09 PM
Rick H  Offline OP
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Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,100
Florida, USA
I came across this on one of the forums, which says comes from a article by David Cloud, but am having a hard time digging it up as it seems to have other articles included. Well here is the part that was posted...

"...Everywhere we look evangelicals are turning to Roman Catholic styles of contemplative spirituality (which in many cases were borrowed from pagan sources), such as ritualistic rote prayers, chanting, meditation, mindless centering prayer, the use of prayer beads, the Stations of the
Cross, lectio divina, labyrinths, and "the daily office."
The cover story for the February 2008 issue of Christianity Today was "The Future Lies in the Past," and it describes the "lost secrets of the ancient church" that are being rediscovered by evangelicals. The ancient church in question happens to be the Roman Catholic, beginning with the so-called "church fathers" of the early centuries. The article observes that many young evangelicals dislike both
"traditional" Christianity" and the seeker sensitive churches.
Traditional Christianity is described as too focused on "being right," too much into "Bible studies" and "apologetics materials." Instead, the young evangelicals are lusting after "a renewed encounter with a God" that goes beyond "doctrinal definitions." This, of course, is a perfect definition of mysticism. It refers to experiencing God beyond the boundaries of Scripture.

Christianity Today recommends that evangelicals "stop debating" and just "embody Christianity." Toward this end they should "embrace symbols and sacraments" and dialogue with "Catholicism and Orthodoxy"; they should
"break out the candles and incense" and pray the "lectio divina" and learn the Catholic" ascetic disciplines" from "practicing monks and nuns."

Christianity Today says that this "search for historic roots" will lead "to a deepening ecumenical conversation, and a recognition by evangelicals that the Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox are fellow Christians with much to teach us."
This is a no holds barred invitation to Catholic mysticism, and it will not lead to light but to the same darkness that has characterized Rome throughout its history, and it will lead beyond Rome to the paganism from which Rome originally borrowed its "contemplative practices."

The January 2001 issue of Christianity Today contained a lengthy description by Mennonite pastor Arthur Boers of his visit to four ecumenical religious communities-Taize, Lindisfarne, Iona, and Northumbria--and HIS INCREASING LOVE FOR LITURGICAL PRACTICES. Boers testifies: "About two decades ago, on a whim, I bought a discontinued book by a famous Catholic priest. As a convinced evangelical Anabaptist,
I was skeptical. But I was also curious. As it turned out, this book became the starting point in my recovery of a fuller prayer life through the daily office."

THE TAIZE APPROACH
The mystical movement is strongly influenced by Taize (pronounced teh-zay). This is a religious community that was formed in southeastern France during World War II by Roger Schutz, a Swiss Protestant pastor who went by the name of "Brother Roger" and who led the community until his death in 2005. Its goal is to work for world peace and ecumenical
unity. The Taize monastic order includes some 100 allegedly "celibate brothers" from different countries and denominations, including Roman Catholic, Lutheran, Anglican, and Reformed. While the Taize community itself is very small, the Taize philosophy has influenced churches throughout the world. Taize is a major force for non-doctrinal ecumenism. Thousands of people per week make a pilgrimage to Taize. These include Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and the unaffiliated. The Roman Catholic connection is very
strong. Schutz participated in the Catholic Vatican II Council, and Pope John Paul II visited Taize in October 1986. Since Schutz's death, Taize has been led by a Roman Catholic priest named Alois Loeser. The Taize services are non-dogmatic and non-authoritative. There is no preaching. "It does not dictate what people must believe. No confessions
of faith are required. No sermons are given. No emotional,
evangelical-style testimonials are expected. Clergy are not required."

Schutz described the philosophy of Taize as, "Searching together--not wanting to become spiritual masters who impose; God never imposes. We want to love and listen, we want simplicity" ("Taize," Religion and Ethics Newsweekly, Sept. 20, 2002).

Taize's non-doctrinal ecumenical Christianity is fueled by mysticism. A "shadowy medieval" atmosphere is created with the use of such things as candles, icons, and incense (Vancouver Sun, April 14, 2000). The goal is to bring the "worshipper" into a meditative state, "to a place beyond
words, a place of just being." There is a lot of repetition, with "one-line Taize harmonies repeated up to 15 times each." The Taize web site promotes the use of icons. The Taize community is heavily involved in the same type of
"social-justice" issues that are popular with evangelicals today.

A DESCRIPTION OF ONE OF THE CONTEMPLATIVE PRACTICES
To illustrate how unscriptural and spiritually dangerous the
contemplative practices are we will look at the most popular one called Centering Prayer. Centering prayer is also called centering down. It involves quieting the mind and emptying it of conscious thoughts about God with the objective of entering into a non-verbal experiential communion with God in the center of one's being and thereby achieving direct revelation from God.

Thomas Merton, one of the modern fathers of centering prayer, claims that "the simplest way to come into contact with the living God is to go to one's center and from there pass into God" (Finding Grace at the Center, p. 28).

Here is how he describes it:
"Then we move in faith to God, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, dwelling in creative love in the depths of our being. This is the whole essence of the prayer.... All the rest of the method is simply a means to enable us to abide quietly in this center, and to allow our whole being to share in this refreshing contact with its Source" (Finding Grace at the
Center, 2002, p. 32).
"... savor the silence, the Presence..." (p. 35).
"As soon as we move in love to God present in our depths, we are there... we simply want to remain there and be what we are" (p. 39).
"We might think of it as if the Lord Himself, present in our depths, were quietly repeating His own name, evoking His presence and very gently summoning us to an attentive response. We are quite passive. We let it happen" (p. 39).
"... to enter into our Christ-being in the depths" (p. 42).
"... we want immediate contact with God Himself, and not some thought, image, or vision of him..." (p. 42).
"... open yourself interiorly to the mystery of God's enveloping presence" (p. 48).
"... interior silence is the proximate goal of this prayer" (p. 52).
"... our theme is the center, that is, the place of meeting of the human spirit and the divine Spirit" (p. 80).
The practice is called "this union, this face-to-face encounter" (p. 15), "passive meditation" (p. 20), "a fourth state of consciousness" (p.34), "savoring the silence" (p. 35), "this nothing" (p. 49), "the deep waters of silence" (p. 52), "deep tranquility" (p. 54).

The practice of centering prayer requires entering into a non-thinking mode. Basil Pennington said: "In a meditation like Centering Prayer, you leave the rational mind and emotions behind, open yourself to rest in the Divine. St. Thomas Aquinas says,'Where the mind leaves off, the
heart goes beyond'" (interview with Mary NurrieStearns published on the Personal Transformation website,
http://www.personaltransformation.com/Penning... ).

In The Signature of Jesus, Brennan Manning says centering prayer requires three steps.
The first step is to quiet down and "stop thinking about God" (p. 212).
The second step is to choose a "sacred word" and "without moving your lips, repeat the word inwardly, slowly, and often" (p. 218). The word might be "love" or "God" or something else. This is to be done until the mind is dwelling upon that one word without distraction and is carried
by that practice into a non-thinking communion with God at the center of one's being. The mantra is the key to entering the non-thinking mode.

Ray Yungen explains:
"When a word or phrase is repeated over and over, after just a few repetitions, those words lose their meaning and become just sounds....
After three or four times, the word can begin to lose its meaning, and if this repeating of words were continued, normal thought processes could be blocked, making it possible to enter an altered state of consciousness because of hypnotic effect that begins to take place. It really makes no difference whether the words are 'You are my God' or 'I
am calm,' the results are the same" (A Time of Departing, p. 150). The mantra, or repetition of a word, produces a mindless hypnotic state. The actual meaning of the word quickly becomes lost to the mind, and that is the objective. The mantra allows the practitioner to put aside thinking in order to reach an altered state of consciousness called "the
silence place" in which one allegedly experiences God directly. Practitioners of eastern religions recognize the power of the mantra in entering this state. Deepak Chopra, for example, says: "A mantra ... has little or no meaning to distract us. Therefore it is an easier vehicle for going inward than prayer or verbal contemplation"
(How to Know God, p. 94).

Amazingly, Chopra, who is a New Age Hindu who believes in the divinity of man, recommends the ancient Catholic contemplative manual The Cloud of Unknowing. He considers the centering prayer techniques to be the same as Hindu yoga.
"There is no doubt that people resist the whole notion of God being an inner phenomenon.... Yet its importance is stated eloquently in the medieval document known as 'The Cloud of Unknowing,' written anonymously in the fourteenth century.... The writer informs us that ANY THOUGHT IN THE MIND SEPARATES US FROM GOD, because thought sheds light on its object.... Even though the cloud of unknowing baffles us, it is
actually closer to God than even a thought about God and his marvelous creation. We are advised to go into a 'cloud of forgetting' about anything other than the silence of the inner world. For centuries this document has seemed utterly mystical, but it makes perfect sense once we realize that THE RESTFUL AWARENESS RESPONSE, WHICH CONTAINS NO THOUGHTS,
is being advocated....
"We aren't talking about the silence of an empty mind ... But the thought takes place against a background and nonthought. Our writer equates it with KNOWING SOMETHING THAT DOESN'T HAVE TO BE STUDIED. The mind is full of a kind of knowing that could speak to us about anything, yet it has no words; therefore we seek this knowingness in the background" (Chopra, How to Know God, 2000, pp. 94, 95, 98).
In this same book, Chopra says, "I believe that God has to be known by looking in the mirror" (p. 9). Thus Chopra is describing meditative methods whereby the individual can allegedly come into contact with his "higher self" or divinity, yet he is using Catholic mysticism to get
there! And the same manual, The Cloud of Unknowing, is one of the most popular manuals among contemplative evangelicals. Chopra says that mantra-induced mind-emptying centering prayer techniques result in non-verbal revelation.

This is a loud warning to those who have ears to hear.
Richard Foster says repetitious prayers such as "breath prayers" "BIND THE MIND" (Prayer: Finding the Heart's True Home, p. 124). Tricia Rhodes, in her book The Soul at Rest, which is "a step-by-stepjourney of learning contemplative prayer, suggests: "Make every effort to stop the flow of talking going on within you--to slow it down until it comes to a halt" (The Soul at Rest, 1996, p. 28).

The third step is to return one's mind to the sacred word when
distractions come. Manning suggests ending the session by quoting the Lord's Prayer in a rote manner. He recommends two 20-minute centering sessions per day.
The result of centering prayer is supposed to be mystical knowledge obtained through communion with God in one's being.
"For in this darkness we experience an intuitive understanding of everything material and spiritual without giving special attention to anything in particular" (The Cloud of Unknowing, chapter 68)."To know God in this way is to perceive a new dimension to all reality"
(Finding Grace at the Center, p. 60)...."

And to think this is what is finding its way into the Adventist church is very troubling...

Re: Evangelicals Turning to Roman Catholic Contemplative Spirituality ... [Re: Rick H] #176584
09/04/15 01:04 AM
09/04/15 01:04 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Blessings everyone,

I do hope my post will be on point with this thread as it does deal with evangelicals looking to Rome.

Personally, I believe 1888 was a huge year for evangelicals. After Alonzo T. Jones delivered his precious message at the GC Session earlier that year, on December 13, 1888 he also delivered a very powerful message to a Senate Committee on Labor and Education that was trying to develop bill for a National Sunday Law.

Being a Senate Committee and not a sub-committee, these men were hoping to get a bill proposing a National Sunday Law to the floor of the United States Senate for a vote. Every religion present at this meeting were supporting this legislation. Even the Sabbath keeping churches; the Jews and Seventh-day Baptists had cut a deal to be grand-fathered in per this legislation.

The lone dissension came from the Seventh-day Adventist Church represented by Alonzo T. Jones. God used this man in a mighty way that year and that day. Because of the stance made by Jones the support from that committee fell apart and a National Sunday Law has never come that close in the United States Congress again.

I believe evangelicals remember this and have sold their souls to get a National Sunday Law in this country. As the evangelicals came to realize they were going to need support from the Roman Catholic Church to accomplish their goal, they have made many concessions since then.

The two I find worth mentioning now are;

1) Their change in prophetic interpretation. They have come to favor the Roman Church much more these days since they don't consider the Papacy the anti-Christ anymore.

2) Now, it seems they are now compromising their stance on gay marriage as well.

I expect to see much more activity from the evangelicals if Pope Francis I promotes a National Sunday Law later this month when addressing the United States Congress. It would mark the most powerful support before the US Congress in the history of the United States for a National Sunday Law.

This is how I believe it anyway.

Re: Evangelicals Turning to Roman Catholic Contemplative Spirituality ... [Re: Alchemy] #176783
09/10/15 05:50 PM
09/10/15 05:50 PM
J
James Peterson  Offline
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Active Member 2019

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,195
Canada
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
The lone dissension came from the Seventh-day Adventist Church represented by Alonzo T. Jones. God used this man in a mighty way that year and that day. Because of the stance made by Jones the support from that committee fell apart and a National Sunday Law has never come that close in the United States Congress again.

What was Jones advocating? A National Saturday Law instead? Or was he defending the freedom of conscience? It fell apart because most saw the wisdom in refraining from imposing a state religion, given the plurality of beliefs inherent in American society. The problem is not worshiping on either Saturday or Sunday, but on being FORCED to worship on either day instead of the other. Do you see my point?

In any case, consider:
  • Roe vs Wade (410 U.S. 113, 1973),
  • Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. vs Dover Area School District, et al. (400 F. Supp. 2d 707 M.D. Pa., 2005), and
  • Obergefell v. Hodges (576 U.S. 14-556, 2015)
Does a National Sunday Law mean anything at all in light of those three? Is God VERY angry because you worship Him on Sundays and not at all against those more entrenched legal requirements that have already taken root in the American psyche? It's a question for which SDA have no answer; otherwise, they would have already run to the mountains as they are wont to do. But an SNL looms large in their eyes so that they do not see the evil that is already present, in the midst of which, because of the wealth, they delight to walk still.

///

Re: Evangelicals Turning to Roman Catholic Contemplative Spirituality ... [Re: James Peterson] #176786
09/10/15 11:17 PM
09/10/15 11:17 PM
A
Alchemy  Offline
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Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
The lone dissension came from the Seventh-day Adventist Church represented by Alonzo T. Jones. God used this man in a mighty way that year and that day. Because of the stance made by Jones the support from that committee fell apart and a National Sunday Law has never come that close in the United States Congress again.

What was Jones advocating? A National Saturday Law instead? Or was he defending the freedom of conscience? It fell apart because most saw the wisdom in refraining from imposing a state religion, given the plurality of beliefs inherent in American society. The problem is not worshiping on either Saturday or Sunday, but on being FORCED to worship on either day instead of the other. Do you see my point?

In any case, consider:
  • Roe vs Wade (410 U.S. 113, 1973),
  • Tammy Kitzmiller, et al. vs Dover Area School District, et al. (400 F. Supp. 2d 707 M.D. Pa., 2005), and
  • Obergefell v. Hodges (576 U.S. 14-556, 2015)
Does a National Sunday Law mean anything at all in light of those three? Is God VERY angry because you worship Him on Sundays and not at all against those more entrenched legal requirements that have already taken root in the American psyche? It's a question for which SDA have no answer; otherwise, they would have already run to the mountains as they are wont to do. But an SNL looms large in their eyes so that they do not see the evil that is already present, in the midst of which, because of the wealth, they delight to walk still.

///
(bold emphasis mine)

A.T. Jones stood for Liberty of Conscience! This is what the Seventh-day Adventist Church has stood for and help protect around the world.

He stood against a National Sabbath (Saturday) Law as well as a National Sunday Law. And his reasoning was such that many of those in attendance changed their minds and refused to support a National Sunday Law, which would have been FORCED worship.

Re: Evangelicals Turning to Roman Catholic Contemplative Spirituality ... [Re: Rick H] #176817
09/13/15 12:52 AM
09/13/15 12:52 AM
dedication  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,411
Canada
Spiritual Formation has invaded the Evangelical world.
And yes, it is Roman Catholic contemplative Spirituality.

It was Richard Foster’s 1978 book, "The Celebration of Discipline" that started the "fire" and it has spread throughout the Evangelical World. The practices come from eastern religions and have long been practiced and taught by Catholic orders both male and female.

The induction into spiritual formation usually begins with appeals to ones emotions.

" “Are you not tired of the Christian life you have been living? Don’t you grow weary of reading the Bible, praying, and going to church? Wouldn’t you really like to enter into the very depth of your soul and encounter God in indescribable experiences that will radically change you forever? If so, then you must learn and live out the disciplines that have been used by the historic church "

The arguments then lead on to saying that Bible reading and normal prayer is part of "reason". But we are not to rely upon "reason" as such, though it does alert us that the supernatural exists, however, so the argument goes, we need more than intellectual knowledge, we need an encounter with the supernatural.

The argument then claims that this is a "return" to primitive Christianity -- that these spiritual formation exercises go back a long way and that we need to return to them to escape the superficial Christianity in our world today.

Now-
There are several strong "hooks" in these arguments.
-- the longing for something "deeper"
-- the dissatisfaction with the superficial religious experience
-- the appeal that this was the "better" way which was lost

But the major flaw is that this method is not looking to the right source for the answers.

The church that reigned during the middle ages is not our example of true worship. The rapid slide into apostasy and departure from scripture of the post apostolic church should not now be duplicated by the protestant churches.

Five hundred years ago -- we see two men emerge from this medieval church setting.
Both were agonizing over their sins and seeking solutions in church ordained methods like "self torture".

1. Martian Luther turned to scripture and found the answers in "righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ"

2. Ignatius Loyola turned to mysticism, induced visions, spiritual "exercises"

1. The first led much of Europe out of Rome pointing them to scripture and our Savior Jesus Christ.

2. The other led the masses deeper into Rome, away from scripture, into occulted practices, and establishing an order to wage war against the Protestants,


Now many protestants, instead of looking in scripture as Luther did, are looking to the Loyola source for solutions to spiritual fulfillment.

Something that was basically confined to esoteric Roman Catholic circles less than 50 years ago is now being promoted as the essential means to a spiritual life, in evangelical churches.

What has changed?
The doctrines and teachings of Catholicism have not budged, but the willingness of evangelicals to compromise with the theology and practices of Rome have.

As one author wrote:
"As a matter of fact, even those who are soundly in conservative evangelical camps are willing to ignore huge doctrinal differences in order to experience a vitality of life that they, for whatever reason, have come to believe the Catholic contemplatives have to offer."

Re: Evangelicals Turning to Roman Catholic Contemplative Spirituality ... [Re: dedication] #176820
09/13/15 01:54 AM
09/13/15 01:54 AM
ProdigalOne  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024
Supporting Member 2023

Dedicated Member
Joined: Jun 2015
Posts: 1,168
Alberta, Canada
Originally Posted By: dedication
Spiritual Formation has invaded the Evangelical world.
And yes, it is Roman Catholic contemplative Spirituality.

It was Richard Foster’s 1978 book, "The Celebration of Discipline" that started the "fire" and it has spread throughout the Evangelical World. The practices come from eastern religions and have long been practiced and taught by Catholic orders both male and female.

The induction into spiritual formation usually begins with appeals to ones emotions.

" “Are you not tired of the Christian life you have been living? Don’t you grow weary of reading the Bible, praying, and going to church? Wouldn’t you really like to enter into the very depth of your soul and encounter God in indescribable experiences that will radically change you forever? If so, then you must learn and live out the disciplines that have been used by the historic church "

The arguments then lead on to saying that Bible reading and normal prayer is part of "reason". But we are not to rely upon "reason" as such, though it does alert us that the supernatural exists, however, so the argument goes, we need more than intellectual knowledge, we need an encounter with the supernatural.

The argument then claims that this is a "return" to primitive Christianity -- that these spiritual formation exercises go back a long way and that we need to return to them to escape the superficial Christianity in our world today.

Now-
There are several strong "hooks" in these arguments.
-- the longing for something "deeper"
-- the dissatisfaction with the superficial religious experience
-- the appeal that this was the "better" way which was lost

But the major flaw is that this method is not looking to the right source for the answers.

The church that reigned during the middle ages is not our example of true worship. The rapid slide into apostasy and departure from scripture of the post apostolic church should not now be duplicated by the protestant churches.

Five hundred years ago -- we see two men emerge from this medieval church setting.
Both were agonizing over their sins and seeking solutions in church ordained methods like "self torture".

1. Martian Luther turned to scripture and found the answers in "righteousness by faith in Jesus Christ"

2. Ignatius Loyola turned to mysticism, induced visions, spiritual "exercises"

1. The first led much of Europe out of Rome pointing them to scripture and our Savior Jesus Christ.

2. The other led the masses deeper into Rome, away from scripture, into occulted practices, and establishing an order to wage war against the Protestants,


Now many protestants, instead of looking in scripture as Luther did, are looking to the Loyola source for solutions to spiritual fulfillment.

Something that was basically confined to esoteric Roman Catholic circles less than 50 years ago is now being promoted as the essential means to a spiritual life, in evangelical churches.

What has changed?
The doctrines and teachings of Catholicism have not budged, but the willingness of evangelicals to compromise with the theology and practices of Rome have.

As one author wrote:
"As a matter of fact, even those who are soundly in conservative evangelical camps are willing to ignore huge doctrinal differences in order to experience a vitality of life that they, for whatever reason, have come to believe the Catholic contemplatives have to offer."









Excellent! Nice juxtaposition of Luther and Loyola!

As the Protestant world, year after year, continues to lose faith in the Word of God, it grows ever more dependent on sensory manifestations as evidence of the Devine presence. By demanding proof beyond a plain thus saith the Lord, they "have a form of godliness, but deny the power thereof."

Hebrews 11:1 needs no sensory manifestation. One merely accepts the Truth as a child of God.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."


"...I will not forget you.
Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands..."

Isaiah 49:15-16
Re: Evangelicals Turning to Roman Catholic Contemplative Spirituality ... [Re: dedication] #176824
09/13/15 03:32 AM
09/13/15 03:32 AM
A
Alchemy  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
dedication wrote;

"Now many protestants, instead of looking in scripture as Luther did, are looking to the Loyola source for solutions to spiritual fulfillment.

Something that was basically confined to esoteric Roman Catholic circles less than 50 years ago is now being promoted as the essential means to a spiritual life, in evangelical churches.

What has changed?
The doctrines and teachings of Catholicism have not budged, but the willingness of evangelicals to compromise with the theology and practices of Rome have.

As one author wrote:
"As a matter of fact, even those who are soundly in conservative evangelical camps are willing to ignore huge doctrinal differences in order to experience a vitality of life that they, for whatever reason, have come to believe the Catholic contemplatives have to offer.""

This is exactly why we can never make deals with the Roman Catholic Church? They never change their beliefs or compromise their laws.

These are more examples of evangelicals selling out their own souls for a National Sunday Law. And I believe this really became a huge issue after 1888 for evangelicals.


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and do not necessarily represent those of Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine,
as well as the Seventh-day Adventist Church
from the local church level to the General Conference level.

Maritime 2nd Advent Believers OnLine (formerly Maritime SDA OnLine) is also a self-supporting ministry
and is not part of, or affiliated with, or endorsed by
The General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists headquartered in Silver Spring, Maryland
or any of its subsidiaries.

"And He saith unto them, follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." Matt. 4:19
MARITIME 2ND ADVENT BELIEVERS ONLINE (FORMERLY MARITIME SDA ONLINE) CONSISTING MAINLY OF BOTH MEMBERS & FRIENDS
OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH,
INVITES OTHER MEMBERS & FRIENDS OF THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD WHO WISHES TO JOIN US!
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