Given a third party who doesn't know about God nor Hitler, how could you describe what God does and what Hitler does and they would be able to recognize him if they came across Him?

This is leading to: In the last days satan will personate God. He will cause those who disagree with him to be killed. Why will so many be deceived?

They will never be deceived if they know their Bibles. They will be deceived because they do not.



No Sunday-keeping Jesus will confuse me.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Johann,

You are deliberately misusing Mrs. White's writings. You should be ashamed of yourself, and no pastor should think such was a proper argument. You show yourself ready to use the art of deception, if only to further your cause. Well, I will unmask it.

The paragraph just before the one Johann has quoted says this:



Mrs. White is speaking in scathing terms of those who would picture God as cruelly torturing people forever.

No one here, not Rosangela, not Daryl, not Arnold, and least of all myself, is advocating such a tyrannical view of God.

And you know it, Johann!

I think an apology would be in order.

Ellen White is stating truth. There are those who misconstrue the Scriptures to support their own careless opinions and views. But the view that God will bring every work into judgment, and will reward each one according to his or her works, is not a misconstruction. It is a truth. It is a significant part of the Third Angel's Message.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

If we think "judgment" or "punishment" is evil, then we cannot accept that God would do it. It all comes back to definitions.

You think that dwelling on this is evil, but the Bible says: "The mouth of the righteous speaketh wisdom, and his tongue talketh of judgment."

The Bible does not teach that justice, judgment and punishment are evil. The Bible does not even teach that anger is evil. "Be ye angry and sin not." We can have a form of anger that is righteous. Jesus can be angry. God can be angry.

But if you say that "anger is evil," you then form a contradiction with the Bible or with the very character or nature of God. This is what many are now doing in relationship to this thread's topic.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Absolutely not. This passage points out the sin of a wrong presentation of Scripture, and that is what you are doing. There is no reason to be ashamed, for 2 Timothy 2:15
"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." You are quoting the passage before. You should study the pages after this passage which we read for our devotional that morning. They show that this also deals with the way you look at God. Therefore it also applies to those who picture God as "cruelly torturing people" also for shorter periods. To me that seems to be just what you are doing, even if you wrongfully deny your sins. It has earlier been pointed out to you by someone else that yours is a "pagan" interpretation. Since you totally ignored that warning it had to be repeated. Where have you been taught to apologize because you let Scripture point out the sins of people? Is that what you are doing to the people you get paid for preaching repentance?



Many Seventh-day Adventists regard this interpretation of Scripture as a misconstruction which brings a false picture of God to the world. You owe it to yourself to get well acquainted with this before you judge others, because this was the teaching of our pioneers. New theories were brought to us by modern scholars that have confused the views of many, unfortunately.

Can you please show your diligence to scripture and back up this statement with inspired quotes?



You pay much attention to extra-biblical sources. Our pioneers are one of those. They did not have everything right. Neither did Martin Luther. They had much truth, yes. But we are not counseled to follow them implicitly. In other words, just because our pioneers believed something doesn't make it so.

In my case, I'm supporting my views from the Bible. You choose the pioneers. Up to you.

Let me show you what the Bible says, and then you can tell me why you don't believe it.



Furthermore, Jesus Himself spoke of God burning people in hell. (See Matthew 18.)


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Do you include EGW in your list of pioneers?

God has given me light regarding our periodicals. What is it?--He has said that the dead are to speak. How?--Their works shall follow them. We are to repeat the words of the pioneers in our work, who knew what it cost to search for the truth as for hidden treasure, and who labored to lay the foundation of our work. They moved forward step by step under the influence of the Spirit of God. One by one these pioneers are passing away. The word given me is, Let that which these men have written in the past be reproduced. {RH, May 25, 1905 par. 21}

The record of the experience through which the people of God passed in the early history of our work must be republished. Many of those who have since come into the truth are ignorant of the way in which the Lord wrought. The experience of William Miller and his associates, of Captain Joseph Bates, and of other pioneers in the Advent message, should be kept before our people. Elder Loughborough's book should receive attention. Our leading men should see what can be done for the circulation of this book. {17MR 344.4}

It was the spirit of Satan expressed in looks and words to make of none effect the Testimonies of the Spirit of God. "This," said the guide with me, "is the way any message of Heaven will be treated." God and angels are at work to open before the people their wrongs which have brought the frown of God upon the people. Men professing to be teachers, step in between them and the light God has given, that it shall have no weight or effect upon the hearts of the people. God calls them to repentance, while unconsecrated, unconverted men, as bodies of darkness, call their attention from the necessity of repentance to self-justification. These cunning speeches serve the purpose of Satan. Self-inflated, self-deceived souls are deceiving others. {PH155 9.2}

When men come in who would move one pin or pillar from the foundation which God has established by His Holy Spirit, let the aged men who were pioneers in our work speak plainly, and let those who are dead speak also by the reprinting of their articles in our periodicals. {MR760 10.5}

We are to repeat the words of the pioneers in our work, who knew what it cost to search for the truth as for hidden treasure, and who labored to lay the foundation of our work. {RH, May 25, 1905 par. 21}

The very same Satan is at work to undermine the faith of the people of God at this time. There are persons ready to catch up every new idea. The prophecies of Daniel and the Revelation are misinterpreted. These persons do not consider that the truth has been set forth at the appointed time by the very men whom God was leading to do this special work. These men followed on step by step in the very fulfillment of prophecy, and those who have not had a personal experience in this work, are to take the Word of God and believe on "their word" who have been led by the Lord in the proclamation of the first, second, and third angels' messages. ... {2SM 111.2}

It is true that there are prophecies yet to be fulfilled. But very erroneous work has been done again and again, and will continue to be done by those who seek to find new light in the prophecies, and who begin by turning away from the light that God has already given. {2SM 111.3}


When the power of God testifies to what is truth, the truth is to stand forever as the truth. No after suppositions, contrary to the light God has given are to be entertained. Men will arise with interpretations of Scripture which are to them truth, but which are not truth. The truth for this time, God has given us as a foundation for our faith. He Himself has taught us what is truth. One will arise and still another with new light which contradicts the light that God has given under the demonstration of His Holy Spirit. A few are still alive who passed through the experience gained in the establishment of this truth. God has graciously spared their lives to repeat and repeat till the close of their lives, the experience through which they passed even as did John the apostle till the very close of his life. And the standard bearers who have fallen in death, are to speak through the reprinting of their writings. I am instructed that thus [their] voices are to be heard. They are to bear their testimony as to what constitutes the truth for this time. We are not to receive the words of those who come with a message that contradicts the special points of our faith. They gather together a mass of Scripture, and pile it as proof around their asserted theories. This has been done over and over again during the past fifty years. And while the Scriptures are God's Word, and are to be respected, the application of them, if such application moves one pillar of the foundation that God has sustained these fifty years, is a great mistake. He who makes such an application knows not the wonderful demonstration of the Holy Spirit that gave power and force to the past messages that have come to the people of God. {PH020 14.2}

In the future, deception of every kind is to arise, and we want solid ground for our feet. We want solid pillars for the building. Not one pin is to be removed from that which the Lord has established. The enemy will bring in false theories, such as the doctrine that there is no sanctuary. This is one of the points on which there will be a departing from the faith. Where shall we find safety unless it be in the truths that the Lord has been giving for the last fifty years? {RH, May 25, 1905 par. 28}

The past fifty years have not dimmed one jot or principle of our faith as we received the great and wonderful evidences that were made certain to us in 1844, after the passing of the time. The languishing souls are to be confirmed and quickened according to his word. And many of the ministers of the gospel and the Lord's physicians will have their languishing souls quickened according to the word. Not a word is changed or denied. That which the Holy Spirit testified to as truth after the passing of the time, in our great disappointment, is the solid foundation of truth. Pillars of truth were revealed, and we accepted the foundation principles that have made us what we are--Seventh-day Adventists, keeping the commandments of God and having the faith of Jesus. {NYI, February 7, 1906 par. 4}

APL,

Of course Mrs. White was one of our pioneers, but when I refer to the pioneers, I do not speak to her specifically, for she was much more than a pioneer, being a prophetess. I would call her writings the Word of God, and they are inspired by the same Spirit which inspired the Bible.

If you wish to follow the writings of the pioneers, I hope you recognize the truth spoken by John Nevins Andrews.



Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

So Green, why do you then reject what EGW has said about God how executes the sentence against transgression?

Does God directly cause the last plagues?