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Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Rosangela] #153838
07/01/13 05:27 PM
07/01/13 05:27 PM
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kland  Offline
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Is His strange act His wrath? When is His wrath complete?

Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: kland] #153839
07/01/13 07:15 PM
07/01/13 07:15 PM
Rosangela  Offline
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Brazil
If I'm not mistaken, I was asking the question. smile
How do you see it?

Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Rosangela] #153845
07/01/13 10:38 PM
07/01/13 10:38 PM
APL  Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
So God must be a destroyer in order to be a restorer.

APL, what is God's "strange act"?
As always, if we want to know the truth about God, we look to Jesus. Everything we need to know or indeed can know we learn from the life of Christ. (8T-286)

The answer is in the acted out parable of the fig tree, and so nicely decribed by Ellen White in the book, The Desire of Ages. Read Chapter 64. If you'd like for me to outline it for you, I'd be happy to do so. I'll quote only one paragraph:
Originally Posted By: EGW
Jesus had come to the fig tree hungry, to find food. So He had come to Israel, hungering to find in them the fruits of righteousness. He had lavished on them His gifts, that they might bear fruit for the blessing of the world. Every opportunity and privilege had been granted them, and in return He sought their sympathy and co-operation in His work of grace. He longed to see in them self-sacrifice and compassion, zeal for God, and a deep yearning of soul for the salvation of their fellow men. Had they kept the law of God, they would have done the same unselfish work that Christ did. But love to God and man was eclipsed by pride and self-sufficiency. They brought ruin upon themselves by refusing to minister to others. The treasures of truth which God had committed to them, they did not give to the world. In the barren tree they might read both their sin and its punishment. Withered beneath the Saviour's curse, standing forth sere and blasted, dried up by the roots, the fig tree showed what the Jewish people would be when the grace of God was removed from them. Refusing to impart blessing, they would no longer receive it. "O Israel," the Lord says, "thou hast destroyed thyself." Hosea 13:9. {DA 583.2}
God's strange act is when He removes His grace, leaves the sinner to themselves (GC36). The sinner will die in their sins, not as a direct action of God, but as the natural consequences of sin. (GC35,36).


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #153851
07/02/13 03:01 AM
07/02/13 03:01 AM
Rosangela  Offline
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So, to you, the "strange act" of God is not something future, but something He has already done several times during earth's history?

Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #153854
07/02/13 03:42 AM
07/02/13 03:42 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Originally Posted By: Rosangela
Quote:
So God must be a destroyer in order to be a restorer.

APL, what is God's "strange act"?
As always, if we want to know the truth about God, we look to Jesus. Everything we need to know or indeed can know we learn from the life of Christ. (8T-286)

The answer is in the acted out parable of the fig tree, and so nicely decribed by Ellen White in the book, The Desire of Ages. Read Chapter 64. If you'd like for me to outline it for you, I'd be happy to do so. I'll quote only one paragraph:
Originally Posted By: EGW
Jesus had come to the fig tree hungry, to find food. So He had come to Israel, hungering to find in them the fruits of righteousness. He had lavished on them His gifts, that they might bear fruit for the blessing of the world. Every opportunity and privilege had been granted them, and in return He sought their sympathy and co-operation in His work of grace. He longed to see in them self-sacrifice and compassion, zeal for God, and a deep yearning of soul for the salvation of their fellow men. Had they kept the law of God, they would have done the same unselfish work that Christ did. But love to God and man was eclipsed by pride and self-sufficiency. They brought ruin upon themselves by refusing to minister to others. The treasures of truth which God had committed to them, they did not give to the world. In the barren tree they might read both their sin and its punishment. Withered beneath the Saviour's curse, standing forth sere and blasted, dried up by the roots, the fig tree showed what the Jewish people would be when the grace of God was removed from them. Refusing to impart blessing, they would no longer receive it. "O Israel," the Lord says, "thou hast destroyed thyself." Hosea 13:9. {DA 583.2}
God's strange act is when He removes His grace, leaves the sinner to themselves (GC36). The sinner will die in their sins, not as a direct action of God, but as the natural consequences of sin. (GC35,36).

APL,

The passage you quoted from the Desire of Ages makes not mention of God's "strange act." The Bible and Ellen White both speak of it. To what is it applied? It is applied to the act of punishment of the wicked; to judgment. Read the following passage from The Great Controversy for more enlightenment on the matter.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God's judgments will be visited upon those who are seeking to oppress and destroy His people. His long forbearance with the wicked emboldens men in transgression, but their punishment is nonetheless certain and terrible because it is long delayed. "The Lord shall rise up as in Mount Perazim, He shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon, that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act." Isaiah 28:21. To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act. "As I live, saith the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked." Ezekiel 33:11. The Lord is "merciful and gracious, long-suffering, and abundant in goodness and truth, . . . forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin." Yet He will "by no means clear the guilty." "The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked." Exodus 34:6, 7; Nahum 1:3. By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law. The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice. The nation with which He bears long, and which He will not smite until it has filled up the measure of its iniquity in God's account, will finally drink the cup of wrath unmixed with mercy. {GC 627.2}
When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out. The plagues upon Egypt when God was about to deliver Israel were similar in character to those
628
more terrible and extensive judgments which are to fall upon the world just before the final deliverance of God's people. Says the revelator, in describing those terrific scourges: "There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshiped his image." The sea "became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." And "the rivers and fountains of waters . . . became blood." Terrible as these inflictions are, God's justice stands fully vindicated. The angel of God declares: "Thou art righteous, O Lord, . . . because Thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and Thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." Revelation 16:2-6. By condemning the people of God to death, they have as truly incurred the guilt of their blood as if it had been shed by their hands. In like manner Christ declared the Jews of His time guilty of all the blood of holy men which had been shed since the days of Abel; for they possessed the same spirit and were seeking to do the same work with these murderers of the prophets. {GC 627.3}
In the plague that follows, power is given to the sun "to scorch men with fire. And men were scorched with great heat." Verses 8, 9. The prophets thus describe the condition of the earth at this fearful time: "The land mourneth; . . . because the harvest of the field is perished. . . . All the trees of the field are withered: because joy is withered away from the sons of men." "The seed is rotten under their clods, the garners are laid desolate. . . . How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture. . . . The rivers of water are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness." "The songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day, saith the Lord God: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence." Joel 1:10-12, 17-20; Amos 8:3. {GC 628.1}
These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off. Yet they will be the most
629
awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals. All the judgments upon men, prior to the close of probation, have been mingled with mercy. The pleading blood of Christ has shielded the sinner from receiving the full measure of his guilt; but in the final judgment, wrath is poured out unmixed with mercy. {GC 628.2}
In that day, multitudes will desire the shelter of God's mercy which they have so long despised. "Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord: and they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the Lord, and shall not find it." Amos 8:11, 12. {GC 629.1}


There are a number of noteworthy points Mrs. White makes. Here are some of them:

  • "To our merciful God the act of punishment is a strange act."
  • "Yet He will 'by no means clear the guilty.' 'The Lord is slow to anger, and great in power, and will not at all acquit the wicked.'"
  • "By terrible things in righteousness He will vindicate the authority of His downtrodden law."
  • "The severity of the retribution awaiting the transgressor may be judged by the Lord's reluctance to execute justice."
  • "When Christ ceases His intercession in the sanctuary, the unmingled wrath threatened against those who worship the beast and his image and receive his mark (Revelation 14:9, 10), will be poured out."

The above points tell us when, how, upon whom, by whom, and why God will execute His "strange act." They also tell us something about what the act entails. It is clear that this act does not occur before probation's close. It could not, therefore, have yet occurred in earth's past history. It is yet future--unless you believe probation has already closed and Christ has ceased interceding for us already.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153856
07/02/13 04:10 AM
07/02/13 04:10 AM
APL  Offline OP
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Western, USA
Does God cause the last plagues? No. They are caused by Satan. But note how EGW talks about them from your quote:
Originally Posted By: EGW
"Yet they will be the most awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals. All the judgments upon men, prior to the close of probation, have been mingled with mercy. The pleading blood of Christ has shielded the sinner from receiving the full measure of his guilt; but in the final judgment, wrath is poured out unmixed with mercy. {GC 628.2}"
Note also that they are not mixed with mercy! This is God's withdrawl of his protection, (Revelation 7:1-3), this is His strange act. This is EXACTLY the same thing I quoted from Desire of Ages which you claim does not talk of God's strange act, "grace of God was removed from them". Same thing. God's wrath is as described in Romans 1. It is a consistent picture of God.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #153857
07/02/13 04:12 AM
07/02/13 04:12 AM
APL  Offline OP
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
If you want to know what God is really like, LOOK AT JESUS. Everything we need to know and indeed can know about God we learn from Jesus. God is EXACTLY like Jesus. (see 8T286)


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #153859
07/02/13 05:01 AM
07/02/13 05:01 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
Does God cause the last plagues? No. They are caused by Satan.

Where did you get this information?

Please provide the quotes.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: Green Cochoa] #153861
07/02/13 05:33 AM
07/02/13 05:33 AM
APL  Offline OP
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Satan was trying his every art to hold them where they were, until the sealing was past, until the covering was drawn over God's people, and they left without a shelter from the burning wrath of God, in the seven last plagues. God has begun to draw this covering over His people, and it will soon be drawn over all who are to have a shelter in the day of slaughter. God will work in power for His people; and Satan will be permitted to work also. {EW 44.2}


Rev_7:1-3 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to damage earth and sea, 3 saying, "Do not damage the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have marked the servants of our God with a seal on their foreheads."

The restraining Spirit of God is even now being withdrawn from the world. Hurricanes, storms, tempests, fire and flood, disasters by sea and land, follow each other in quick succession. Science seeks to explain all these. The signs thickening around us, telling of the near approach of the Son of God, are attributed to any other than the true cause. Men cannot discern the sentinel angels restraining the four winds that they shall not blow until the servants of God are sealed; but when God shall bid His angels loose the winds, there will be such a scene of strife as no pen can picture. {6T 408.1}

God bears long with the rebellion and apostasy of His subjects. Even when His mercy is despised and His love scorned and derided, He bears with men until the last resource for leading them to repentance is exhausted. But there are limits to His forbearance. From those who to the end continue in obstinate rebellion, He removes His protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power. They will have sinned away their day of grace. {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 7}

God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 8}

As Jesus moved out of the most holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon His garment; and as He left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. In that fearful time, after the close of Jesus' mediation, the saints were living in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. {EW 280.2}

The destruction of Jerusalem is a preview of the last plagues, which will be much worse. Is God the acting subject in the destruction of Jerusalem? Nope. It was His withdrawl of mercy which unleashed the sinful people to do what they did. The Spirit of God, persistently rejected and abused, had at last no choice but to leave the people
to themselves. With nothing to restrain the fierce passions of the Jews, they rebelled so treacherously and seditiously against the Romans that they stirred up the worst spirit of retaliation in their enemies.

"When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God. {GC 615.1}

When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}

God's withdrawl of His protection, His pouring out of wrath, unleashes Satan, and it is Satan which will have the entire control of the wicked, and Satan brings on the final trouble.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: What is the Wrath of God? [Re: APL] #153863
07/02/13 08:53 AM
07/02/13 08:53 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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None of your statements, APL, support the concept of Satan causing the seven last plagues, nor being in charge or in direction of them. Let's look at these statements one at a time.

Originally Posted By: APL
Satan was trying his every art to hold them where they were, until the sealing was past, until the covering was drawn over God's people, and they left without a shelter from the burning wrath of God, in the seven last plagues. God has begun to draw this covering over His people, and it will soon be drawn over all who are to have a shelter in the day of slaughter. God will work in power for His people; and Satan will be permitted to work also. {EW 44.2}

This statement says nothing about Satan causing the seven last plagues. It indicates, instead, that God is behind them. Satan is mentioned as trying to keep people on his side, until probation has closed. Then we are told that once this happens, a "covering" is placed over God's people (to protect them) while those who were still on Satan's side are "left without a shelter from the burning wrath of God, in the seven last plagues." This indicates that the plagues are from God's wrath.


Originally Posted By: APL
Rev_7:1-3 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth so that no wind could blow on earth or sea or against any tree. 2 I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to damage earth and sea, 3 saying, "Do not damage the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have marked the servants of our God with a seal on their foreheads."

This passage makes no mention at all of the seven last plagues. It speaks to the "four winds of the earth," which is a separate subject entirely. Those are the winds of strife not of plagues, and the symbolic language which follows is not a part of the message regarding the seven last plagues, but rather a message of that which takes place just before them. Remember, the seven last plagues fall AFTER probation has closed, and probation has not yet closed if the servants of God are not yet sealed, an action still taking place at the time period referred to in this text.

Originally Posted By: APL
The restraining Spirit of God is even now being withdrawn from the world. Hurricanes, storms, tempests, fire and flood, disasters by sea and land, follow each other in quick succession. Science seeks to explain all these. The signs thickening around us, telling of the near approach of the Son of God, are attributed to any other than the true cause. Men cannot discern the sentinel angels restraining the four winds that they shall not blow until the servants of God are sealed; but when God shall bid His angels loose the winds, there will be such a scene of strife as no pen can picture. {6T 408.1}

Again, "even now" refers to a time period before the close of probation. Those hurricanes, storms, etc. which occur before probation's close are not, by definition, part of the seven last plagues. Even such "strife" as is mentioned here, should it occur before the close of probation, would not be part of the "plagues" to come later.

Originally Posted By: APL
God bears long with the rebellion and apostasy of His subjects. Even when His mercy is despised and His love scorned and derided, He bears with men until the last resource for leading them to repentance is exhausted. But there are limits to His forbearance. From those who to the end continue in obstinate rebellion, He removes His protecting care. Providence will no longer shield them from Satan's power. They will have sinned away their day of grace. {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 7}

What is the context of this statement? There is no mention here whatsoever of the seven last plagues, nor of their source. If anything, this passage indicates that God is behind a withdrawal of His protection during our probationary time. It speaks of "repentance." It won't be possible to repent once probation has closed, and there will be no mercy from God at such a point either.

Originally Posted By: APL
God keeps a reckoning with the nations. Not a sparrow falls to the ground without His notice. Those who work evil toward their fellow men, saying, How doth God know? will one day be called upon to meet long-deferred vengeance. In this age a more than common contempt is shown to God. Men have reached a point in insolence and disobedience which shows that their cup of iniquity is almost full. Many have well-nigh passed the boundary of mercy. Soon God will show that He is indeed the living God. He will say to the angels, "No longer combat Satan in his efforts to destroy. Let him work out his malignity upon the children of disobedience; for the cup of their iniquity is full. They have advanced from one degree of wickedness to another, adding daily to their lawlessness. I will no longer interfere to prevent the destroyer from doing his work." {RH, September 17, 1901 par. 8}

There is no mention of the plagues here either. What is the context? What is the time period under discussion here? If it is the plagues, can you support this?

Originally Posted By: APL
As Jesus moved out of the most holy place, I heard the tinkling of the bells upon His garment; and as He left, a cloud of darkness covered the inhabitants of the earth. There was then no mediator between guilty man and an offended God. While Jesus had been standing between God and guilty man, a restraint was upon the people; but when He stepped out from between man and the Father, the restraint was removed and Satan had entire control of the finally impenitent. It was impossible for the plagues to be poured out while Jesus officiated in the sanctuary; but as His work there is finished, and His intercession closes, there is nothing to stay the wrath of God, and it breaks with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner, who has slighted salvation and hated reproof. In that fearful time, after the close of Jesus' mediation, the saints were living in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. {EW 280.2}

This interesting statement speaks of both God's restraint upon Satan AND His "fury." There is nothing here that limits God's fury. There is nothing here to say that God only withdraws His protections. When plagues are "poured out," it doesn't sound like anything being "withdrawn." There is an action here--a Godly one. This statement speaks of "an offended God" and it speaks of "the wrath of God" breaking "with fury upon the shelterless head of the guilty sinner...."

Originally Posted By: APL
The destruction of Jerusalem is a preview of the last plagues, which will be much worse. Is God the acting subject in the destruction of Jerusalem? Nope. It was His withdrawl of mercy which unleashed the sinful people to do what they did. The Spirit of God, persistently rejected and abused, had at last no choice but to leave the people
to themselves. With nothing to restrain the fierce passions of the Jews, they rebelled so treacherously and seditiously against the Romans that they stirred up the worst spirit of retaliation in their enemies.

Why are not the plagues of Egypt the "preview of the last plagues"? What "plague" fell upon Jerusalem? Judgment, yes. Plague? No.

Originally Posted By: APL
"When God's presence was finally withdrawn from the Jewish nation, priests and people knew it not. Though under the control of Satan, and swayed by the most horrible and malignant passions, they still regarded themselves as the chosen of God. {GC 615.1}

Again, this statement does not mention plagues. An allusion is made to probation's close, but the focus is nowhere near that of the plagues.

Originally Posted By: APL
When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor. The restraint which has been upon the wicked is removed, and Satan has entire control of the finally impenitent. God's long-suffering has ended. The world has rejected His mercy, despised His love, and trampled upon His law. The wicked have passed the boundary of their probation; the Spirit of God, persistently resisted, has been at last withdrawn. Unsheltered by divine grace, they have no protection from the wicked one. Satan will then plunge the inhabitants of the earth into one great, final trouble. As the angels of God cease to hold in check the fierce winds of human passion, all the elements of strife will be let loose. The whole world will be involved in ruin more terrible than that which came upon Jerusalem of old. {GC 614.1}

This speaks of Satan being given free reign over the passions of sinful men after probation's close. This does not, however, refer to the plagues which are God's part in the matter. Satan works and God works. Satan causes "trouble." But Mrs. White does not say he causes the plagues.


Originally Posted By: APL
God's withdrawl of His protection, His pouring out of wrath, unleashes Satan, and it is Satan which will have the entire control of the wicked, and Satan brings on the final trouble.

Yes, Satan will have control over the wicked. But he doesn't have control over the righteous, nor does he have control over the plagues.

I have yet to see a statement that supports Satan being the one causing the seven last plagues.

Surely, you must have at least one good statement to support your belief, right? Bring it out for all of us to see.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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