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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#154180
07/16/13 04:54 PM
07/16/13 04:54 PM
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OP
SDA
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Western, USA
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It is so sad to see people try to rationalize this hard in order to maintain an erroneous opinion. Won't you please reconsider? Open your heart to the truth. God wants you to trust Him above all. What you are really saying green, is be very afraid of God. Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son!
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#154181
07/16/13 05:25 PM
07/16/13 05:25 PM
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kland, When I say Nadab and Abihu went where they could not go, that is a true statement. Green wants my statement to say, Nadab and Abihu NEVER could go into the presence. He neglects to say the whole truth. It required very special preparation to go into the presence of God. This, Nadab and Abihu did not do, thus, they COULD NOT GO IN and survive; my statement is true. Nadab and Abihu would never have committed that fatal sin had they not first become partially intoxicated by the free use of wine. They understood that the most careful and solemn preparation was necessary before presenting themselves in the sanctuary, where the divine Presence was manifested; but by intemperance they were disqualified for their holy office. Their minds became confused and their moral perceptions dulled so that they could not discern the difference between the sacred and the common. To Aaron and his surviving sons was given the warning: "Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: {PP 361.3}
Men who have been set apart by the laying on of hands, to minister in sacred things, often stand in the desk with their mouths polluted, their lips stained, and their breath tainted with the defilements of tobacco. They speak to the people in Christ's stead. How can such service be acceptable to a holy God, who required the priests of Israel to make such special preparations before coming into his presence, lest his sacred holiness should consume them for dishonoring him, as in the case of Nadab and Abihu? {4aSG 127.2} So you see, Nadab and Abihu were disqualified from entering in, they could not go in. But I do not expect green to acknowledge he was wrong. APL, You are correct that Nadab and Abihu disqualified themselves by drinking. But you were incorrect in saying that they were killed for entering God's presence. Every priest did that, and it was a part of their ordinary duties. Furthermore, neither of your statements above says it was the entering into God's presence that caused their deaths. The one that mentions them being consumed speaks of their deaths having been caused by "dishonoring him [God]." That "dishonoring" is made clear by Mrs. White's other statements to have been the fact of bringing common fire into the service of the sanctuary. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#154183
07/16/13 06:11 PM
07/16/13 06:11 PM
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OP
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Green - every priest that entered were prepared to enter. No priest would survive without that preparation. It was the entering in unprepared. My statement is not false, and your characterization of it be false is itself false. The statement that they when where they could not go, is true, and in harmony with EGW statements.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#154184
07/16/13 06:15 PM
07/16/13 06:15 PM
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SDA
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Green - every priest that entered were prepared to enter. No priest would survive without that preparation. It was the entering in unprepared. My statement is not false, and your characterization of it be false is itself false. The statement that they when where they could not go, is true, and in harmony with EGW statements. "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." (Proverbs 21:2) Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#154185
07/16/13 06:50 PM
07/16/13 06:50 PM
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OP
SDA
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
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Green - every priest that entered were prepared to enter. No priest would survive without that preparation. It was the entering in unprepared. My statement is not false, and your characterization of it be false is itself false. The statement that they when where they could not go, is true, and in harmony with EGW statements. "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts." (Proverbs 21:2) Green Cochoa. Yes! And: Proverbs 14:12 There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death. Romans 1:16 I’m not ashamed of the gospel. Through it comes the power of God to save everyone who believes. It came to the Jews first, then to the Greeks.
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: Green Cochoa]
#154210
07/17/13 07:50 PM
07/17/13 07:50 PM
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Midland
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kland,
APL claimed that Nadab and Abihu were killed for entering God's presence. That is simply untrue.
But weren't they? In other words, they were killed for their sin not for being in God's presence.
You are correct that Nadab and Abihu disqualified themselves by drinking. But you were incorrect in saying that they were killed for entering God's presence. Every priest did that, and it was a part of their ordinary duties.
Question: Would they have been killed if they had not gone in God's presence? Question: Are priests qualified to go into God's presence at all times? Also, once a priest, always a priest? If they disqualified themselves by drinking, and did not repent of that, would you consider them still a priest and could go into God's presence and offer "strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not."? I find your blatant false accusation against APL appalling. Speaking of appalling: It is beyond the power of the human mind to estimate the evil which has been wrought by the heresy of eternal torment. The religion of the Bible, full of love and goodness, and abounding in compassion, is darkened by superstition and clothed with terror. When we consider in what false colors Satan has painted the character of God, can we wonder that our merciful Creator is feared, dreaded, and even hated? The appalling views of God which have spread over the world from the teachings of the pulpit have made thousands, yes, millions, of skeptics and infidels. {GC 536.2}
To which view does this seem more appropriately addressed? (This is close to what I was looking for, but seemed like I had come across it a little differently. Lot's to search for about "the character of God", but I have not found one saying we need to hold a view of God that is stern, severe, hateful, fearful...) God has committed a work to His people. Both at home and in the regions beyond, there is work to be done. The truths of the Bible have again become obscured by custom, tradition, and false doctrine. The erroneous teachings of popular theology have made thousands upon thousands of skeptics and infidels. Multitudes have been led to cherish an erroneous conception of God, as the Jews, misled by the errors and traditions of their time, had a false conception of Christ. "Had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." If we have the Spirit of Christ, and are laborers together with Him, it is ours to carry forward the work that He came to do, ours to reveal to the world the character of God. And His hand is stretched out to save His people in this age from sinking into the formal, Christless state into which the Jewish nation sank. {ST, May 7, 1902 par. 13}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: kland]
#154215
07/17/13 09:40 PM
07/17/13 09:40 PM
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OP
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kland - there are MANY references one could use of EGW that speak of picturing God as stern and severe. Read the whole article on ST January 20, 1890. And these from COL and SC. This is just a sample as you know! In his restless youth the prodigal looked upon his father as stern and severe. How different his conception of him now! So those who are deceived by Satan look upon God as hard and exacting. They regard Him as watching to denounce and condemn, as unwilling to receive the sinner so long as there is a legal excuse for not helping him. His law they regard as a restriction upon men's happiness, a burdensome yoke from which they are glad to escape. But he whose eyes have been opened by the love of Christ will behold God as full of compassion. He does not appear as a tyrannical, relentless being, but as a father longing to embrace his repenting son. The sinner will exclaim with the Psalmist, "Like as a father pitieth his children, so the Lord pitieth them that fear Him." Psalms 103:13. {COL 204.2} In the parable there is no taunting, no casting up to the prodigal of his evil course. The son feels that the past is forgiven and forgotten, blotted out forever. And so God says to the sinner, "I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins," Isaiah 44:22. "I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more." Jeremiah 31:34. "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return unto the Lord, and He will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon." Isaiah 55:7. "In those days, and in that time, saith the Lord, the iniquity of Israel shall be sought for, and there shall be none; and the sins of Judah, and they shall not be found." Jeremiah 50:20. {COL 204.3} God has bound our hearts to Him by unnumbered tokens in heaven and in earth. Through the things of nature, and the deepest and tenderest earthly ties that human hearts can know, He has sought to reveal Himself to us. Yet these but imperfectly represent His love. Though all these evidences have been given, the enemy of good blinded the minds of men, so that they looked upon God with fear; they thought of Him as severe and unforgiving. Satan led men to conceive of God as a being whose chief attribute is stern justice,--one who is a severe judge, a harsh, exacting creditor. He pictured the Creator as a being who is watching with jealous eye to discern the errors and mistakes of men, that He may visit judgments upon them. It was to remove this dark shadow, by revealing to the world the infinite love of God, that Jesus came to live among men. {SC 10.3} The Son of God came from heaven to make manifest the Father. "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him." John 1:18. "Neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him." Matthew 11:27. When one of the disciples made the request, "Show us the Father," Jesus answered, "Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?" John 14:8-9. {SC 11.1}
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#154220
07/18/13 02:53 AM
07/18/13 02:53 AM
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Global Moderator
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kland, When I say Nadab and Abihu went where they could not go, that is a true statement....
So you see, Nadab and Abihu were disqualified from entering in, they could not go in. But I do not expect green to acknowledge he was wrong.
You qualified your statement. I don't think anyone would argue that Nadab and Abihu had disqualified themselves from their sacred ministry in the Holy Place. However, your first post did not make any qualifications, it merely indicated they went into the presence of God where they weren't suppose to go. Yet it was their job to go into the holy place of the sanctuary and take care of things therein. Their problem was not that they went in, but that they had beclouded their reasoning powers with wine before going in and thus committed a grievous sin -- that SIN was bringing in common fire. Nadab and Abihu were men in holy office; but by the use of wine their minds became so clouded that they could not distinguish between sacred and common things. By the offering of “strange fire” they disregarded God's command, and were slain by his judgments. {CTBH 28.4}
They “offered strange fire before the Lord, which He commanded them not.” Taking common fire they placed it upon their censers. “And there went out fire from the Lord, and devoured them, and they died before the Lord. CEv92
Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, who ministered in the holy office of priesthood, partook freely of wine and, as was their usual custom, went in to minister before the Lord. The priests who burned incense before the Lord were required to use the fire of God's kindling, which burned day and night and was never extinguished. God gave explicit directions.. And any deviation from the express directions of God in connection with His holy service was punishable with death. {Con 80.1}
The father of the men slain, and their brothers, were forbidden to manifest any signs of grief for the ones who had been justly punished of God. When Moses reminded Aaron of the words of the Lord, that he would be sanctified in them that came nigh to him, Aaron was silent. He knew that God was just; and he murmured not. His heart was grieved at the dreadful death of his sons while in their disobedience; yet, according to God's command, he made no expression of his sorrow, lest he should share the same fate of his sons, and the congregation also be infected with the spirit of unreconciliation, and God's wrath come upon them. {1SP 277.2}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: dedication]
#154221
07/18/13 03:39 AM
07/18/13 03:39 AM
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OP
SDA
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dedication - - my statement is still true. It was their job to be prepared, this they did not do. You take my statement and extend it to include all situations. Is that fair? I suppose if you think it supports your position. When Nadab and Abihu went in, it was into a place they could not go, they had not prepared themselves. Yes, it was their custom to minister before the Lord. But only if they had done adequate preparation. If they were disqualified, then they could not go in, right? My statement is completely true under the circumstances of our discussion.
Green make the claim that Nadab and Abihu were not killed by going into the presence of the Lord. He said, "That is simply untrue." Whose statement is correct? His, or mine? They clearly died because their went in unprepared.
I'm glad that all the comments on are on this thread. They stand as an accurate testimony to the truth...
Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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Re: What is the Wrath of God?
[Re: APL]
#154225
07/18/13 05:15 AM
07/18/13 05:15 AM
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SDA
Active Member 2021
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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
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dedication - - my statement is still true. It was their job to be prepared, this they did not do. You take my statement and extend it to include all situations. Is that fair? I suppose if you think it supports your position. When Nadab and Abihu went in, it was into a place they could not go, they had not prepared themselves. Yes, it was their custom to minister before the Lord. But only if they had done adequate preparation. If they were disqualified, then they could not go in, right? My statement is completely true under the circumstances of our discussion.
Green make the claim that Nadab and Abihu were not killed by going into the presence of the Lord. He said, "That is simply untrue." Whose statement is correct? His, or mine? They clearly died because their went in unprepared.
I'm glad that all the comments on are on this thread. They stand as an accurate testimony to the truth... When Uzzah touched the ark, did that "touch" enter him into God's presence? After all, he was already just beside it, wasn't he? If being beside the ark was NOT "entering God's presence," then you have a logical problem with your view. One of the following must be true in Uzzah's case: A) Uzzah "entered God's presence" by touching the ark; OR B) Uzzah was already in God's presence before touching the ark. Uzzah, as any of us, was a sinner. Sinners have been able to exist in God's presence, because God does not fully show Himself to them. If God so chooses, He can show Himself to them, and they will die. This has happened too. In 1 Samuel 16:9 we learn of 50,070 people who died for looking into the ark. God is too holy for us, in our sinful state, to look upon. We would be consumed. The Bible teaches this through its faithful record. Now, if Uzzah was already in God's presence before touching the ark, why did the touch kill him? You see, Nadab and Abihu had entered God's presence many times before. They were among the 70 elders of Israel to have gone near the summit of the mount with Moses when Moses went up to the Lord. They had been highly privileged in Israel. Mrs. White says of them: "Next to Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu had stood highest in Israel. They had been especially honored by the Lord, having been permitted with the seventy elders to behold His glory in the mount." Even Moses was a sinner, but he entered God's presence and was not consumed. So what made the difference with Nadab and Abihu? They transgressed God's explicit commands for how to worship Him, while in His presence. God's presence was not the cause of their death--their sin was. But God was the one who killed them because of that sin. God, in doing this, preserved the sacredness of their office and preserved His own honor. God upheld His sovereignty as a lesson to all of us regarding obedience and faithfulness to the preservation of our lives. God will preserve us, but only as we are faithful to Him. An example of the demoralizing effect of intoxicants is seen in the case of Nadab and Abihu. They ventured to partake of wine before they entered the tabernacle to perform the duties of their sacred office, and the result was, they could not distinguish between common fire and that which was consecrated to the holy service. For this breach of trust they were slain. Some will say, “If they were intoxicated, and could not discern the difference between these fires, why should they be punished?” When they placed the cup to their lips, they made themselves responsible for all their deeds committed while under its influence. {CTBH 18.2} Note that Ellen White NEVER says Nadab and Abihu were slain for entering God's presence. She also NEVER says that they were slain for improper preparations before entering His presence. She specifically says they were slain for bringing in common fire in place of the sacred. She says they did this because their judgment was impaired by the wine they had drunk. And even the priests, Nadab and Abihu, had been destroyed for venturing to offer "strange fire," in disregard of a divine command. Blessings, Green Cochoa.
We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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