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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Johann] #156350
09/19/13 05:53 AM
09/19/13 05:53 AM
asygo  Offline
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California, USA
Originally Posted By: Johann
That all depends on if you will present a tricky conclusion based on this.

One more thing. If I draw conclusions that are invalid, then please show me my error. Show me my logical fallacies. If I am wrong, I would certainly like to know.

But don't reject truth just because you don't like where they lead. Abraham's example of faith was that he followed the Truth without knowing where he was going to end up.

I am reminded of a friend who was having marital difficulties. As I was trying to help him see God's will, he said, "I will do whatever God wants me to do, as long as I don't have to go back to her." He was willing to accept God's word as long as it didn't contradict his own ideas.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #156351
09/19/13 09:35 AM
09/19/13 09:35 AM
Johann  Offline
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Now I agree with you, Arnold.

Each one of us has a history. If it is a history in faith it does have a meaning. Ellen White wrote that our greatest danger is forgetting history.

This is true of the Seventh-day Adventist Church and it is also true about our history in connection with Jesus Christ and Scripture.

It is impossible for me to forget my background, how my mother took me on her lap at a tender age reading to me from the Bible and the Testimonies. For evening worship we would read a chapter in the Conflict of the Ages series. Besides that I started reading the Bible from cover to cover at the age of 6 besides the Sabbath School lessons both for children and adults.

At 15 I went to school in Norway where our English readers were Steps to Christ, Education, Gospel Workers and Evangelism, besides the Bible classes.

Many of my college and graduate classes in USA consisted in reading and memorizing sections in Ellen White,and reading the Bible in the original languages, Greek and Hebrew.

In my life work I have been teaching Bible, Testimony Countdowns, etc.

Then I come here to MSDAOL and find a new religion disdaining Christian education and based on human wisdom with an attempted support in honed quotation from the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy to verify one's own biases. This new religion seems also based on Bible interpretations introduced by Samuelle Bacchiocchi who came to Andrews University with his degree from the University of the Vatican with a gold medal from the Pope himself. He gathered disciples like Samuel Koranteng Pipim, who wrote many articles and books going even further than Bacchiocchi in his departure from the Biblical understanding of inspiration so clearly seen in the writings of Ellen White.

When you get used to hone your reading and discovery of select quotations to sustain your own religion it is so easy to feel snug in your own comfortable corner from where you spew out a venomous picture of God so different from the total seen in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy.

This, Arnold, is my history. Here I am confronted with a religion, called Seventh-day Adventist, but so different from the total picture given in Scripture. Who is behind that?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Johann] #156355
09/19/13 02:16 PM
09/19/13 02:16 PM
Johann  Offline
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It may seem strange to some that I refer on one side to the Roman Catholic influence through Samuelle Bacchiocchi, and then to the Bible interpretation of his disciple Samuel Pipim. Pipim's teaching concerning inspiration is closer to the understanding of certain other Protestant denominations than Catholicism, but his interpretation made it easier for him to be stamped conservative while proclaiming Bacchiocchi's claims.


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Johann] #156365
09/19/13 10:42 PM
09/19/13 10:42 PM
asygo  Offline
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From an old, old thread.
Originally Posted By: John Boskovic
The biggest temptation then is to view God and his righteousness as the source of condemnation and death. From this all the other temptations gain their power.

Last edited by asygo; 09/19/13 10:42 PM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #156366
09/19/13 10:53 PM
09/19/13 10:53 PM
Johann  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,014
Iceland
Originally Posted By: asygo
From an old, old thread.
Originally Posted By: John Boskovic
The biggest temptation then is to view God and his righteousness as the source of condemnation and death. From this all the other temptations gain their power.


Are we bothered by this temptation? How?


"Here is a last piece of advice. If you believe in goodness and if you value the approval of God, fix your minds on the things which are holy and right and pure and beautiful and good. Model your conduct on what you have learned from me, on what I have told you and shown you, and you will find the God of peace will be with you."
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #156381
09/20/13 04:58 AM
09/20/13 04:58 AM
APL  Offline
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Posts: 6,368
Western, USA
Green - You are unconvincing. HOW does God destroy? Shall I give you again the EGW quote you love to ignore?
Originally Posted By: EGW
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them.
Originally Posted By: EGW
God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}
Green - Behold your God. See him "as He is".

Last edited by Green Cochoa; 09/20/13 05:31 AM. Reason: Moved from Commentaries thread where this post was off-topic

Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #156383
09/20/13 05:48 AM
09/20/13 05:48 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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The Orient
APL,

So you would invalidate truth because you do not know HOW it can be true? Would you say that God will not punish simply because your mind cannot grasp the manner in which God might do this?

Do you believe God's Word that He will punish?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #156385
09/20/13 06:11 AM
09/20/13 06:11 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Originally Posted By: APL
The pharisees had strict exact rules too! Is God exacting? Satan says so.


As the above fits your favorite topic better than the one in which it was posted, I'll respond to it here.

God isn't "exacting," but God is "exact." (Consult a dictionary for the finer points between the two--largely attitude.)

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Sins that have not been repented of and forsaken will not be pardoned and blotted out of the books of record, but will stand to witness against the sinner in the day of God. He may have committed his evil deeds in the light of day or in the darkness of night; but they were open and manifest before Him with whom we have to do. Angels of God witnessed each sin and registered it in the unerring records. Sin may be concealed, denied, covered up from father, mother, wife, children, and associates; no one but the guilty actors may cherish the least suspicion of the wrong; but it is laid bare before the intelligences of heaven. The darkness of the darkest night, the secrecy of all deceptive arts, is not sufficient to veil one thought from the knowledge of the Eternal. God has an exact record of every unjust account and every unfair dealing. He is not deceived by appearances of piety. He makes no mistakes in His estimation of character. Men may be deceived by those who are corrupt in heart, but God pierces all disguises and reads the inner life. {GC 486.2}


So, God keeps an "exact record." What will He do with it?

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
...Because men have received great light, because they have, like the princes of Israel, ascended to the mount, and been privileged to have communion with God, and to dwell in the light of His glory, let them not flatter themselves that they can afterward sin with impunity, that because they have been thus honored, God will not be strict to punish their iniquity. This is a fatal deception. The great light and privileges bestowed require returns of virtue and holiness corresponding to the light given. Anything short of this, God cannot accept. Great blessings or privileges should never lull to security or carelessness. They should never give license to sin or cause the recipients to feel that God will not be exact with them. All the advantages which God has given are His means to throw ardor into the spirit, zeal into effort, and vigor into the carrying out of His holy will. {PP 359.3}


She clearly says that it is a "fatal deception" to believe that "God will not be strict to punish their iniquity."

Does God punish? The only correct answer is a resounding "YES!" This should really be the end of this topic, if it weren't for those who choose not to believe.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #156386
09/20/13 08:22 AM
09/20/13 08:22 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
This is the problem with folk like APL who view these terms in "black and white." God is NOT "exacting," and God IS "exacting."

Here He IS:
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
God is no less exacting now than He was in olden times.


Here He ISN'T:
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
So those who are deceived by Satan look upon God as hard and exacting.



And here is a fuller explanation and appeal from Mrs. White for people to understand how careful and exact God is with us. She provides several examples from the Bible to support this concept.
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
Will you, dear reader, examine critically the reasons of your faith by the law and the testimony? Satan has many by-paths strewn with tempting flowers, that lead directly to the broad way to death and hell. Our only safety is in the path of obedience. Men cannot follow their own desires, and be right. They not only involve their own souls in ruin, but by their example they imperil others also. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 6}

God is exact to mark iniquity. Sins of thoughtlessness, negligence, forgetfulness, and even ignorance, have been visited by some of the most wonderfully marked manifestations of his displeasure. Many who have suffered terrible punishment for their sins, might have pleaded as plausibly as do those of today who fall into similar errors, that they meant no harm, and some would even say that they thought they were doing God service; but the light shone on them, and they disregarded it. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 7}

Let us look at some of the examples found in sacred history. Assisted by his sons, Aaron had offered the sacrifices that God required; and he lifted up his hands and blessed the people. All had been done as God commanded, and he accepted the sacrifice, and revealed his glory in a most remarkable manner; for fire came from the Lord, and consumed the offering upon the altar. The people looked upon this wonderful manifestation of divine power with awe and intense interest. They saw in it a token of his glory and his favor, and they raised a universal shout of praise and adoration, and fell on their faces, as if in the immediate presence of Jehovah. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 8}

As the prayers and praise of the people were ascending before God, two of the sons of Aaron took each his censer, and burned fragrant incense thereon, to arise as a sweet odor before God. But they had partaken too freely of wine, and used strange fire, contrary to the Lord's commandment. And the wrath of God was kindled against Nadab and Abihu for their disobedience, and a fire went out from the Lord, and devoured them in the sight of the people. By this judgment God designed to teach the people that they must approach him with reverence and awe, and in his own appointed manner. He is not pleased with partial obedience. It was not enough that in this solemn season of worship nearly everything was done as he commanded. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 9}

The Lord sent Samuel to King Saul with a special message. "Go," he said, "and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not, but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." Saul was faithful and zealous in performing a part of his commission. He smote the Amalekites with a great slaughter; but he took the proposition of the people before the command of God, and spared Agag, the king, and "the best of the sheep, and of the oxen, and of the fatlings, and the lambs, and all that was good." {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 10}

The Lord commanded Saul to "utterly destroy the sinners the Amalekites, and fight against them until they be consumed." The Lord knew that this wicked nation would, if it were possible, blot out his people and his worship from the earth; and for this reason he had commanded that even the little children should be cut off. But Saul had spared the king, the most wicked and merciless of them all; one who had hated and destroyed the people of God, and whose influence had been strongest to promote idolatry. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 11}

Saul thought he had done all that was essential of that which the Lord commanded him to do. Perhaps he even flattered himself that he was more merciful than his Maker, as do some unbelievers in our day. He met Samuel with the salutation, "Blessed be thou of the Lord; I have performed the commandment of the Lord." But when the prophet asked what meant the bleating of the sheep and the lowing of the oxen which he heard, Saul was obliged to confess that the people had taken of the spoil, sheep and oxen, the chief of the things which should have been utterly destroyed, to sacrifice to the Lord in Gilgal. {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 12}

Did the Lord accept this justification of Saul's conduct? Was he pleased with this partial obedience, and willing to pass over the trifle that had been neglected out of so good a motive? Saul did what he thought was best, and would not the Lord commend such excellent judgment? No. Said Samuel, "Hath the Lord as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams. For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, and stubbornness is as iniquity and idolatry. Because thou hast rejected the word of the Lord, he hath also rejected thee from being king." {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 13}

These instances show how God looks upon his professed people when they obey part of his commandments while in other respects they follow a course of their own choosing. Let no one flatter himself that a part of God's requirements are nonessential. He has placed no command in his word that men may obey or disobey at will, and not suffer the consequences. If men choose any other path than that of strict obedience, they will find that "the end thereof are the ways of death." {ST, July 17, 1884 par. 14}


Is God "exact?" Yes. Is He "exacting?" That depends on your attitude. If one looks at this with a righteous attitude and spirit, one can honestly answer "yes." If one has the wrong spirit, one in which the word "exacting" means "arbitrary," "hard," or "severe," then God is definitely not "exacting."

Which spirit do we possess? Is the cup "half empty" or is it "half full?" Just because I see it as "half full" does not mean that you are correct in saying that I see a cup "half empty." Really, the attitude makes ALL the difference here.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Green Cochoa] #156395
09/20/13 04:38 PM
09/20/13 04:38 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
APL,

So you would invalidate truth because you do not know HOW it can be true? Would you say that God will not punish simply because your mind cannot grasp the manner in which God might do this?

Do you believe God's Word that He will punish?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.
And you ignore the HOW God does it, when it is plainly stated in the EGW quotes I provided. Who is not understanding???


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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