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Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law #156795
10/02/13 12:17 AM
10/02/13 12:17 AM
Daryl  Offline
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I came across and read the following, which was a revelation to me:
Quote:
Christ never observed the Ceremonial Law.
The Bible never records any instance where Jesus participated in the ceremonial law/sacrificial system. He couldn't, because the ceremonial law/sacrificial system was instituted at the time of sin (Genesis 4:4) to show how God was going to remove man's sins. If Jesus participated in the ceremonial system He would have been admitting that He was a sinner, in which He was not. "Christ passed through all the experiences of His childhood, youth, and manhood without the observance of ceremonial temple worship." (The Bible Echo, October 31, 1898)

Does anybody have any thoughts regarding this?


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Daryl] #156796
10/02/13 12:36 AM
10/02/13 12:36 AM
Daryl  Offline
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This is the only part that was written by Ellen White:
Quote:
"Christ passed through all the experiences of His childhood, youth, and manhood without the observance of ceremonial temple worship." {The Bible Echo, October 31, 1898 par. 7} {RH, October 24, 1899 par. 11}


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Daryl] #156801
10/02/13 02:40 AM
10/02/13 02:40 AM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Daryl
If Jesus participated in the ceremonial system He would have been admitting that He was a sinner, in which He was not. "Christ passed through all the experiences of His childhood, youth, and manhood without the observance of ceremonial temple worship." (The Bible Echo, October 31, 1898)


Jesus Christ told John at his baptism, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness." (Mat. 3:15) Of that baptism, John spoke saying, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance." (verse 11). It is obvious that Jesus practiced that which indicated prior sin and thus the need to be cleansed.

Consider as well his own words concerning the Passover, "And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. AND AS THEY DID EAT ...." (Mat. 26:19-21) In another place, he also said, "With desire I HAVE DESIRED TO EAT this passover with you before I suffer." (Luke 22:15) That Passover Lamb represented Christ who was going to sacrifice himself, a sacrifice indicative of the sinner's need of salvation, for the salvation of all they who ate it in faith. He ate it.

Thirdly, he was circumcised, according to the law. "When eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb." (Luke 2:21-24) You may recall that when Abraham was circumcised, God told him, "I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." (Gen. 17:1) Circumcision was not instituted because of an arbitrary command without rhyme or reason, but because of sin.

Jesus was every bit a Jew, a keeper of the Law. But he was more than that. He understood its purpose, and was always careful to weigh it against mercy and compassion for those who struggle in the darkness of this life. He understood the things he was doing, what the ceremonies really meant and explained their purposes to those who were willing to hear: just as he did for his disciples at the Passover, and for John at his baptism.

It is A FALSEHOOD: the notion that Jesus throughout his life, lived "without the observance of ceremonial temple worship." (Mat. 5:17-19)

/


Last edited by James Peterson; 10/02/13 02:49 AM.
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: James Peterson] #156803
10/02/13 03:30 AM
10/02/13 03:30 AM
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What is meant by "ceremonial temple worship"?

Yes, Christ kept the Passover with His disciples, but it wasn't in the temple. It was in the upper room where Christ gave it a meaning that transcended the "temple ceremony".

Also we have no record that He ever brought a lamb to be sacrificed in the temple. He had no sins to confess upon its head.

When Jesus did attend a temple festival, He usually ended up in trouble for seeking to change the focus from "ceremony" to the reality of God's salvation.

Jesus did not attend the Rabbinical schools during His childhood, but learned at His mother's knee.
(John 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?)

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: dedication] #156814
10/02/13 01:38 PM
10/02/13 01:38 PM
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kland  Offline
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Yes, is there a distinction between ceremonial temple worship and ceremonial system?

Just guessing about what the original author was hinting at, I think one key is in the circumcision. Paul said it wasn't necessary. Wasn't it part of the ceremonial system? And yet, Jesus was.

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: dedication] #156816
10/02/13 02:29 PM
10/02/13 02:29 PM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
What is meant by "ceremonial temple worship"?

Yes, Christ kept the Passover with His disciples, but it wasn't in the temple. It was in the upper room where Christ gave it a meaning that transcended the "temple ceremony".

Also we have no record that He ever brought a lamb to be sacrificed in the temple. He had no sins to confess upon its head.

When Jesus did attend a temple festival, He usually ended up in trouble for seeking to change the focus from "ceremony" to the reality of God's salvation.

Jesus did not attend the Rabbinical schools during His childhood, but learned at His mother's knee.
(John 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?)

******* STAFF EDIT *******

/

Last edited by Daryl; 10/18/13 02:53 PM. Reason: Staff Edit done.
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: kland] #156817
10/02/13 02:32 PM
10/02/13 02:32 PM
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James Peterson  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Yes, is there a distinction between ceremonial temple worship and ceremonial system?

Just guessing about what the original author was hinting at, I think one key is in the circumcision. Paul said it wasn't necessary. Wasn't it part of the ceremonial system? And yet, Jesus was.

Be careful to read the Bible for yourself and not listen to those who whisper falsehood in your ear. It is written, "Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did. But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all men." (John 2:23-24)

Jesus took part in worship services in the Jerusalem temple. Three times a year, all Jewish men where to present themselves before God in the temple, according to the Law:

"Three times thou shalt keep a feast unto me in the year. Thou shalt keep the feast of unleavened bread: (thou shalt eat unleavened bread seven days, as I commanded thee, in the time appointed of the month Abib; for in it thou camest out from Egypt:and none shall appear before me empty:) And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field:and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field. Three times in the year all thy males shall appear before the Lord God." (Exodus 23:14-17) See also Mat. 5:17-20.

******* STAFF EDIT *******

/

Last edited by Daryl; 10/18/13 02:56 PM. Reason: Staff Edit done.
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: James Peterson] #156825
10/03/13 01:07 PM
10/03/13 01:07 PM
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James, how do you determine that Ellen White is a false prophet?

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: kland] #156830
10/04/13 02:16 AM
10/04/13 02:16 AM
Daryl  Offline
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ADMIN HAT ON!!!!!

Thread closed while under Admin Team review.

ADMIN HAT OFF!!!!!


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Daryl] #157310
10/18/13 02:58 PM
10/18/13 02:58 PM
Daryl  Offline
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ADMIN HAT ON!!!!!

Review completed and thread re-opened.

ADMIN HAT OFF!!!!!


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Daryl] #157363
10/19/13 05:59 AM
10/19/13 05:59 AM
asygo  Offline
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She wan't talking about Him not obeying the ceremonial law. She was talking about Him coming as a meek and lowly peasant. Here's more context:

He began His mission in the lowly walks of life, placing Himself where the family of which He was a member required His service. He did not shirk responsibility, but carried into His labour cheerfulness and tact. He regarded every department of human industry as though it were a part of His commission from God. The Commander of heaven became subject to command, but in it all He manifested heartiness and devotion. He was a perfect pattern in every place. – {BEcho October 31, 1898 Par. 6}

Christ passed through all the experiences of His childhood, youth, and manhood without the observance of ceremonial temple worship. He held no office, He assumed no rank. He passed through the experience of infancy, childhood, and manhood without a stain upon His character. He consecrated Himself to God that He might benefit and bless others, to show that in every period of life the human agent can do the Master’s will. – {BEcho October 31, 1898 Par. 7}


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: asygo] #157380
10/19/13 10:12 PM
10/19/13 10:12 PM
dedication  Offline
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Actually EGW is talking about

Ceremonial temple worship.

NOT about ceremonial law.

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: dedication] #157381
10/19/13 10:28 PM
10/19/13 10:28 PM
dedication  Offline
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Quote:
"Christ passed through all the experiences of his childhood, youth, and manhood without the observance of ceremonial temple worship. He held no office, he assumed no rank. He passed through the experience of infancy, childhood, and manhood without a stain upon his character. He consecrated himself to God that he might benefit and bless others, to show that in every period of life the human agent can do the Master's will. {RH, October 24, 1899 par. 11}

Jesus came to the world to live the life which it is for the interest of every being on earth to live,--that of humble obedience. To all, Christ has given a probation, in which to form characters for the mansions he has gone to prepare, and he calls upon all to follow his example. Those who are indeed learners in the school of Christ will not exalt themselves {RH, October 24, 1899 par. 13}


Notice the two elements in opposition --
Temple ceremonial worship
Learners in the school of Christ

This paragraph adds more insights:

Quote:
"With the people of that age the value of all things was determined by outward show. As religion had declined in power, it had increased in pomp. The educators of the time sought to command respect by display and ostentation. To all this the life of Jesus presented a marked contrast. His life demonstrated the worthlessness of those things that men regarded as life's great essentials. Born amidst surroundings the rudest, sharing a peasant's home, a peasant's fare, a craftsman's occupation, living a life of obscurity, identifying Himself with the world's unknown toilers,--amidst these conditions and surroundings,Jesus followed the divine plan of education. The schools of His time, with their magnifying of things small and their belittling of things great, He did not seek. His education was gained directly from the Heaven-appointed sources; from useful work, from the study of the Scriptures and of nature, and from the experiences of life--God's lesson books, full of instruction to all who bring to them the willing hand, the seeing eye, and the understanding heart.

{Ed 77.2}


The child Jesus did not receive instruction in the synagogue schools. His mother was His first human teacher. From her lips and from the scrolls of the prophets, He learned of heavenly things. The very words which He Himself had spoken to Moses for Israel He was now taught at His mother's knee. As He advanced from childhood to youth, He did not seek the schools of the rabbis. He needed not the education to be obtained from such sources; for God was His instructor.--DA 70 (1898)

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: dedication] #157418
10/20/13 11:51 AM
10/20/13 11:51 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ellen White
About forty days after the birth of Christ, Joseph and Mary took Him to Jerusalem, to present Him to the Lord, and to offer sacrifice. This was according to the Jewish law, and as man's substitute Christ must conform to the law in every particular. He had already been subjected to the rite of circumcision, as a pledge of His obedience to the law. {DA 50.1}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Green Cochoa] #157433
10/21/13 01:11 AM
10/21/13 01:11 AM
Daryl  Offline
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Does this mean that Christ also offered sacrifices? If so, then what kind of sacrifices did Christ offer, as in for what purpose?
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
About forty days after the birth of Christ, Joseph and Mary took Him to Jerusalem, to present Him to the Lord, and to offer sacrifice. This was according to the Jewish law, and as man's substitute Christ must conform to the law in every particular. He had already been subjected to the rite of circumcision, as a pledge of His obedience to the law. {DA 50.1}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


In His Love, Mercy & Grace,

Daryl smile

John 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

http://www.christians-discuss.com/forum/index.php
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Daryl] #157439
10/21/13 06:03 AM
10/21/13 06:03 AM
dedication  Offline
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Is there any record anywhere of Christ coming to the temple to offer sacrifices?

I don't think there is.

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Daryl] #157447
10/21/13 10:55 PM
10/21/13 10:55 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Daryl
Does this mean that Christ also offered sacrifices? If so, then what kind of sacrifices did Christ offer, as in for what purpose?

As the Sinless One, He would not have had any need to offer any sin offering. The law required such only from those who sinned.

The sacrifice in DA 50 is the redemption price, IIRC. It was for those who "open the womb," which Jesus did.

Circumcision was a sign of the covenant between God and man - I will be their God, they will be my people. That fit Jesus as well.

Last edited by asygo; 10/21/13 10:58 PM.

By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: asygo] #157511
10/24/13 08:47 AM
10/24/13 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: asygo
Originally Posted By: Daryl
Does this mean that Christ also offered sacrifices? If so, then what kind of sacrifices did Christ offer, as in for what purpose?

As the Sinless One, He would not have had any need to offer any sin offering. The law required such only from those who sinned.

The sacrifice in DA 50 is the redemption price, IIRC. It was for those who "open the womb," which Jesus did.

Circumcision was a sign of the covenant between God and man - I will be their God, they will be my people. That fit Jesus as well.


Jesus offered lots of sacrifice, He offered Himself.

Quote:
The Lord Jesus Christ revealed a character entirely opposite to that of Satan. As the high priest laid [off] his gorgeous pontifical robes, and officiated in the white linen dress of a common priest, so Christ emptied Himself and took the form of a servant, and offered sacrifice, Himself the priest, Himself the victim. {18MR 362.2}
By causing the death of the Sovereign of heaven, Satan defeated his own purposes. The death of the Son of God made the death of Satan unavoidable. Satan was allowed to go on until his administration was laid open before the worlds unfallen and before the heavenly universe. By shedding the blood of the Son of God, he uprooted himself [from sympathy], and was seen by all to be a liar, a thief, and a murderer. {18MR 362.3}


The ceremonial law and how it was fulfilled had the same effect as the Holy Spirit, there is a division between unrighteousness and Holiness. The way Jesus offered sacrifice was perfect in His offering, and Satan saw what it meant, the effect was blind rage against his old commander, and in his blindness he caused his own final ruination.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157512
10/24/13 08:56 AM
10/24/13 08:56 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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God did not change His law, but He sacrificed Himself, in Christ, for man’s redemption. “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.” 2 Corinthians 5:19. {DA 762.1}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157519
10/24/13 12:34 PM
10/24/13 12:34 PM
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jamesonofthunder,

You're answering a question that was not asked. I think everyone participating here would agree with what you have said. But that was not the point under discussion in this thread. We were speaking of whether or not Christ observed the ceremonial laws. There was no ceremonial law which commanded a person be crucified for sin. The cross was not part of the types. It was the anti-type. Our discussion here is focused on Christ's observance, or non-observance as the case may be, of the types.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Green Cochoa] #157544
10/24/13 07:59 PM
10/24/13 07:59 PM
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I understood GC, but the way Jesus fulfilled through anti-type was His way of offering sacrifice. He offered himself a sacrifice.

Because of the perfection of Jesus, He was not even required to be ceremonially cleansed after touching the dead or diseased.

Even at His last Passover supper there was no lamb for the meal, because Jesus was the lamb's flesh that they ate.

"While the people were assembling at Jerusalem to celebrate the Passover, He, the antitypical Lamb, by a voluntary act set Himself apart as an oblation. It would be needful for His church in all succeeding ages to make His death for the sins of the world a subject of deep thought and study. Every fact connected with it should be verified beyond a doubt. It was necessary, then, that the eyes of all people should now be directed to Him; the events which preceded His great sacrifice must be such as to call attention to the sacrifice itself. After such a demonstration as that attending His entry into Jerusalem, all eyes would follow His rapid progress to the final scene." {DA 571.2}

Before His thirtieth birthday Jesus was part of all the ceremonial law, part of the family offerings etc, but he never would have to offer sin offering for Himself because He had not sinned. I'm sure this caused a lot of skepticism and ridicule from His brothers and neighbors.

He was bought with a price at His birth and made the pilgrimages to Jerusalem every year, and these are offerings. He gave everything of Himself as an offering, then gave Himself as a sacrifice. Jesus was baptized to fulfill all righteousness, to fulfill the ceremonies He gave to the people that point to Him.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: jamesonofthunder] #157545
10/24/13 09:11 PM
10/24/13 09:11 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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I should have clarified by saying "Jesus was baptized twice to fulfill all righteousness; to fulfill the ceremonies He gave to the people that point to Him."

Once in the Jordan and once in Gethsemane did the sign of the dove overshadow Him.

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: James Peterson] #173089
05/07/15 08:09 AM
05/07/15 08:09 AM
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Originally Posted By: James Peterson
Originally Posted By: Daryl
If Jesus participated in the ceremonial system He would have been admitting that He was a sinner, in which He was not. "Christ passed through all the experiences of His childhood, youth, and manhood without the observance of ceremonial temple worship." (The Bible Echo, October 31, 1898)


Jesus Christ told John at his baptism, "Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness." (Mat. 3:15) Of that baptism, John spoke saying, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance." (verse 11). It is obvious that Jesus practiced that which indicated prior sin and thus the need to be cleansed.

Consider as well his own words concerning the Passover, "And the disciples did as Jesus had appointed them; and they made ready the passover. Now when the even was come, he sat down with the twelve. AND AS THEY DID EAT ...." (Mat. 26:19-21) In another place, he also said, "With desire I HAVE DESIRED TO EAT this passover with you before I suffer." (Luke 22:15) That Passover Lamb represented Christ who was going to sacrifice himself, a sacrifice indicative of the sinner's need of salvation, for the salvation of all they who ate it in faith. He ate it.

Thirdly, he was circumcised, according to the law. "When eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called Jesus, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb." (Luke 2:21-24) You may recall that when Abraham was circumcised, God told him, "I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect." (Gen. 17:1) Circumcision was not instituted because of an arbitrary command without rhyme or reason, but because of sin.

Jesus was every bit a Jew, a keeper of the Law. But he was more than that. He understood its purpose, and was always careful to weigh it against mercy and compassion for those who struggle in the darkness of this life. He understood the things he was doing, what the ceremonies really meant and explained their purposes to those who were willing to hear: just as he did for his disciples at the Passover, and for John at his baptism.

It is A FALSEHOOD: the notion that Jesus throughout his life, lived "without the observance of ceremonial temple worship." (Mat. 5:17-19)

/




First: Jesus and John understood that Jesus did NOT require baptism! Jesus was fulfilling the laver part of the Heavenly Sanctuary, not anything to do with the earthly, or typical sanctuary service on earth.

Second: Passover was a feast day, and not a temple service. Jesus never offer an animal lamb or any animal as a sacrifice for sin. Jesus was sinless.

Third: Jesus didn't sacrifice a sin offering as a child! There was never a reason for or need to offer a sin offering at the temple. Instead, Jesus taught the Jewish leaders in the temple.

Fourth: Jesus actually challenged anyone, including the Jewish leaders, to accuse Him of sin. And no one was able to do so.

Ellen White's statement from Review and Herald is powerful and accurate.

Last edited by Alchemy; 05/07/15 08:10 AM.
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Daryl] #173260
05/13/15 05:56 PM
05/13/15 05:56 PM
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Did all ceremonial temple worship deal with a personal sin? What about circumcision as James pointed out?

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: kland] #173685
05/26/15 05:31 AM
05/26/15 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted By: kland
Did all ceremonial temple worship deal with a personal sin? What about circumcision as James pointed out?


Well, I always thought Jesus kept the feast days to a large degree anyway. Jesus was circumcized on the eighth day. So, there were certain functions Jesus complied with. But, He never offered a sin offering in the temple.

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Green Cochoa] #173690
05/26/15 09:43 AM
05/26/15 09:43 AM
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
About forty days after the birth of Christ, Joseph and Mary took Him to Jerusalem, to present Him to the Lord, and to offer sacrifice. This was according to the Jewish law, and as man's substitute Christ must conform to the law in every particular. He had already been subjected to the rite of circumcision, as a pledge of His obedience to the law. {DA 50.1}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


Note that Mrs. White says "Christ must conform to the law in every particular" about something that His earthly parents were doing on His behalf. And they were offering sacrifice, not just complying with circumcision. What kind of sacrifice was this?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: kland] #173716
05/27/15 04:46 PM
05/27/15 04:46 PM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: kland
Did all ceremonial temple worship deal with a personal sin?

No. The morning and evening sacrifices were not offered by the one who sinned.


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Green Cochoa] #173783
05/30/15 11:09 PM
05/30/15 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
About forty days after the birth of Christ, Joseph and Mary took Him to Jerusalem, to present Him to the Lord, and to offer sacrifice. {DA 50.1}


they were offering sacrifice, not just complying with circumcision. What kind of sacrifice was this?


It was fulfilling the redemption price of the first born. (See Exodus 13:12-13)

There was also a sacrifice for cleansing from the issue of blood required of women after childbirth. Lev. 12:7

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: dedication] #182828
03/20/17 05:08 AM
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This is an interesting topic. I know it is old, but I just wanted to add something to this.

Quote:
"From its earliest years the Jewish child was surrounded with the requirements of the rabbis. Rigid rules were prescribed for every act, down to the smallest details of life. Under the synagogue teachers the youth were instructed in the countless regulations which as orthodox Israelites they were expected to observe. But Jesus did not interest Himself in these matters. From childhood He acted independently of the rabbinical laws. The Scriptures of the Old Testament were His constant study, and the words, “Thus saith the Lord,” were ever upon His lips." Desire of Ages p. 84


I have a feeling that this is what Ellen White was referring to when she said Christ did not get involved with the temple ceremonial worship.

Also, there is a difference between "temple ceremonial worship" and the "ceremonial law". The ceremonial law was given by God. Much of the "temple ceremonial worship" was that which was given by the authority of man alone. The rabbinical schools of Christ's day were basically schools of Greek skepticism in which absolute nonsense was debated, and enforced upon the people, as if it really mattered. The Jewish leaders of the day placed their own teachings above the word of God.

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: dedication] #182830
03/20/17 05:14 AM
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Originally Posted By: dedication
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
Originally Posted By: Ellen White
About forty days after the birth of Christ, Joseph and Mary took Him to Jerusalem, to present Him to the Lord, and to offer sacrifice. {DA 50.1}


they were offering sacrifice, not just complying with circumcision. What kind of sacrifice was this?


It was fulfilling the redemption price of the first born. (See Exodus 13:12-13)

There was also a sacrifice for cleansing from the issue of blood required of women after childbirth. Lev. 12:7


This has brought a new thought to me. It seems that a "firstborn" in Jewish culture was the firstborn of the mother, not the father. It had to be so because Joseph and Mary could_not/would_not have offered an offering for a first born in the case of Jesus if the father counted, for Joseph already had children.

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: ] #182879
03/23/17 01:25 PM
03/23/17 01:25 PM
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Apparently that is correct, as per this very interesting link:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/929263/jewish/Who.htm


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Nadi] #182882
03/23/17 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted By: Nadi
Apparently that is correct, as per this very interesting link:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/929263/jewish/Who.htm

Nice link. Thanks, Nadi.

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Nadi] #182883
03/23/17 04:34 PM
03/23/17 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: Nadi
Apparently that is correct, as per this very interesting link:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/929263/jewish/Who.htm

So, you don't believe that Jesus kept the Law that He gave at the first place and said to keep???

Can you explain briefly your view?

btw. I read the link ... and am not impressed nor see any point made inside that article nor see your point with this link.


Blessings
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Elle] #182884
03/23/17 04:55 PM
03/23/17 04:55 PM
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No, no, Elle. That was in regard to Gary's comment that the "first born" was the first born of the mother. The link clearly indicates that this is the case.

Originally Posted By: Gary K

This has brought a new thought to me. It seems that a "firstborn" in Jewish culture was the firstborn of the mother, not the father. It had to be so because Joseph and Mary could_not/would_not have offered an offering for a first born in the case of Jesus if the father counted, for Joseph already had children.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Nadi] #182886
03/23/17 05:27 PM
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Originally Posted By: Nadi
No, no, Elle. That was in regard to Gary's comment that the "first born" was the first born of the mother. The link clearly indicates that this is the case.


I have been quite familiar with the phrase from the OT about "opening of the womb" for quite a while, but it still had not occurred to me that the father simply didn't count in considering a "firstborn". It seems women rated a lot higher in Israelite culture than most people think.

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Elle] #182887
03/23/17 05:34 PM
03/23/17 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Nadi
Apparently that is correct, as per this very interesting link:

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/929263/jewish/Who.htm

So, you don't believe that Jesus kept the Law that He gave at the first place and said to keep???

Can you explain briefly your view?

btw. I read the link ... and am not impressed nor see any point made inside that article nor see your point with this link.

Elle,

As I pointed out in my first post on this thread, there is a big difference between the ceremonial law given by Christ through Moses, and the "ceremonial temple worship" during the time Christ was here in human form. The latter was mostly of purely human origin. The Jews had, since the time of their return from the Babylonian captivity, been compiling restriction after restriction and, for the last two or three hundred years before Christ's days on earth, been studying according to the principles of pagan thought as they had adopted the principles of Greek reasoning. God had taught them to study His revelation through His prophets to see what it contained, and they had moved to studying from the Greek perspective of skepticism in which a person tears things apart as much as they can according to their own ideas of what makes sense and what doesn't.

We are still educated along those lines today. Greek principles of thought still dominate in our culture today.

Last edited by Gary K; 03/23/17 05:36 PM.
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Nadi] #182888
03/23/17 05:38 PM
03/23/17 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted By: Nadi
No, no, Elle. That was in regard to Gary's comment that the "first born" was the first born of the mother. The link clearly indicates that this is the case.

Originally Posted By: Gary K

This has brought a new thought to me. It seems that a "firstborn" in Jewish culture was the firstborn of the mother, not the father. It had to be so because Joseph and Mary could_not/would_not have offered an offering for a first born in the case of Jesus if the father counted, for Joseph already had children.

Oh sorry, I didn't see that post in the previous page. Tx for clarifying.

Well I don't think it has anything to do with Gary said. To me Jesus was the lamb that redeemed all the Asses. Right? I'm wondering...can we say that Jesus was one of these asses that needed redemption?

Another thing I see ... the firstborn can NEVER (when I capitalize I'm not yelling...only emphasizing) be born of a MAN.... a child is always born of a WOMAN. Whereas...a child is always CONCEIVE by a MAN. These are very different and we need to understand the difference between the two and what these means in a New Covenant context (aka spiritually).

I see these natural illustration as very specific Biblical Language that gives very basic salvatic truths of the plan of salvation. The problem is do we understand the basic foundation of salvation illustrated in the law and what these means to us today who lives according to the New Covenant?

This redeeming an ASS with a lamb... is the basis foundation of the PASSOVER by which originates our "Righteousness by Faith" message.

Just in passage...I do intend to come to Gary's discussion of "Righteousness by Faith". It just take some time since I got other discussion I promise to answer, and having less time on my hand to study and write. But these are important foundational truth we need to make sure we get it straight.


Blessings
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: ] #182889
03/23/17 05:40 PM
03/23/17 05:40 PM
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Originally Posted By: Gary K
Elle,

As I pointed out in my first post on this thread, there is a big difference between the ceremonial law given by Christ through Moses, and the "ceremonial temple worship" during the time Christ was here in human form. The latter was mostly of purely human origin. The Jews had, since the time of their return from the Babylonian captivity, been compiling restriction after restriction and, for the last two or three hundred years before Christ's days on earth, been studying according to the principles of pagan thought as they had adopted the principles of Greek reasoning. God had taught them to study His revelation through His prophets to see what it contained, and they had moved to studying from the Greek perspective of skepticism in which a person tears things apart as much as they can according to their own ideas of what makes sense and what doesn't.

We are still educated along those lines today. Greek principles of thought still dominate in our culture today.

We agree on that.


Blessings
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Elle] #182890
03/23/17 06:17 PM
03/23/17 06:17 PM
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Garywk  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Elle

We agree on that.


Well, that's great. I am glad we agree on at least one thing. It gives us some common understanding to build on.

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: ] #182891
03/23/17 06:48 PM
03/23/17 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: Gary K
God had taught them to study His revelation through His prophets to see what it contained, and they had moved to studying from the Greek perspective of skepticism in which a person tears things apart as much as they can according to their own ideas of what makes sense and what doesn't.

I am not totally sure what you intend by this statement. Could you please elaborate.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: ] #182892
03/23/17 06:59 PM
03/23/17 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted By: Gary K
Originally Posted By: Elle

We agree on that.


Well, that's great. I am glad we agree on at least one thing. It gives us some common understanding to build on.


Great!

Sorry but I cannot resist ... (nothing malintended below...just an opportunity for a little humor while being serious.)

Let's continue with the law in Ex 13:12,13 which relates to who is eligible for redemption.

Ex 13:12 That thou shalt set apart unto the LORD all that openeth the matrix, and every firstling that cometh of a beast which thou hast; the males [shall be] the LORD'S. 13 And every firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb; and if thou wilt not redeem it, then thou shalt break his neck: and all the firstborn of man among thy children shalt thou redeem.

Are you an ass or a lamb? And what do you think I think I am : an ass or a lamb? or maybe I'm not even eligible for redemption since I'm born female ? And then amongst men... only the first male born from a maiden? smile


Blessings
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Nadi] #182893
03/23/17 07:17 PM
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Garywk  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nadi
Originally Posted By: Gary K
God had taught them to study His revelation through His prophets to see what it contained, and they had moved to studying from the Greek perspective of skepticism in which a person tears things apart as much as they can according to their own ideas of what makes sense and what doesn't.

I am not totally sure what you intend by this statement. Could you please elaborate.


Be happy to.

If you look at the Bible God teaches us through revelation about Himself and how He would have us live. Creation, redemption, health, cleanliness, etc... are all taught in the Bible, as well as self-discipline, honor, duty, and much more. God taught the Israelites all these things through revelation. Thus He was teaching them to look to Him for all true learning.

Greek thinking is much different. It is based upon debate, like what Paul got into on Mars Hill. In debate, which the Greeks perfected, we look to tear apart ideas and see if they make sense to us, to our understanding of things. It makes our thinking, our ideas, the standard by which we judge all things that come across our paths.

That is much different than learning via revelation in the way God was teaching the Israelites down through the centuries. Take a look at the building of the original sanctuary during the wandering in the wilderness. God didn't use the skilled Egyptians who had accompanied the Israelites when they left Egypt. He gave special gifts to individual Israelites and had them do the work even though they didn't have the experience in running complex projects or much of the highly skilled labor it took to build the Sanctuary.

This is one example of God teaching the Israelites to trust to Him for all their learning. There are more throughout the Bible if you look for them. The Bible won't come out and say, See, here is God teaching the Isrealites/Jews to look to Him, but the examples are there, as God, through the Bible, teaches us all about life, death, human nature, etc....

Solomon is another instance of this. Study his life and you will see that he understood a great deal about the world around us. He knew a lot about nature and living things, and most of this came through revelation. Look at his understanding of human nature. It is incredible. Adam is another. He was the first biologist as he classified all the animals. This was taught to him by God or His angels in communication with Adam. It had to have been for Adam wouldn't have known how to do this by osmosis.

As I have slowly, sometimes very slowly, learned to set aside my own ideas and just learn from revelation--trust God's word implicitly--my understanding of many things has increased and the Bible has become a living Book to me from which I learn continually on a wide range of subjects. What David said is really true, God's word gives understanding to the simple.

Last edited by Gary K; 03/23/17 07:25 PM.
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: ] #182895
03/23/17 10:38 PM
03/23/17 10:38 PM
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At this point I will not yet comment on that post, as I do not feel that I have an adequate grasp of your viewpoint. But I will ask a question.

What do you feel is the implication for us today?


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Nadi] #182897
03/23/17 11:05 PM
03/23/17 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted By: Nadi
At this point I will not yet comment on that post, as I do not feel that I have an adequate grasp of your viewpoint. But I will ask a question.

What do you feel is the implication for us today?


Our world and our culture is based on Greek thinking. The word skepticism itself is Greek. Our educational systems find that skepticism is a good thing, so we are taught from a young age to be skeptical rather than the opposite, to trust revelation. This has a large effect on our thinking that is so ingrained in us that we are often unconscious of its effects on how we perceive things.

Take a look at the world around you. If you go up to 100 anonymous people on the street and ask them which they find to better, as in more trustworthy, rationalism or trust in revelation, I would think that the vast majority of them would trust being "rational" a lot more than they would trust revelation. Who, in our day and age, wants to not be thought of as "rational"?

Rationalism and skepticism are basically one and the same thing. If you like I can give you a link to a book written by a linguist from the early 1800's on it. It's titled The Origin, Nature, and Influence of Neology. He was a highly educated man who started out as a student in the Dutch Reformed Church and later became a leader in it, and after that a member and leader in the Baptist church of his day. He joined the Millerite movement but never joined the SDA church.

It's a pretty eye opening read to see how rationalism has affected Christianity over the last 2-300 years. He starts his book with the influence of the French Revolution. As you know they, the French, deified the Goddess of Reason. He shows how that spread into other parts of Europe and then into the US. We see its influence widely in such organizations such as The Jesus Seminar and how theologians today are studying "about" the Bible, not the Bible itself. Doctor of Divinity programs seem to be where faith goes to die today.

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: ] #182899
03/24/17 12:19 AM
03/24/17 12:19 AM
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So the argument seems to be contrasting "rationalism" (ie: "bad") with "revelation" (ie: "good"). And although I don't see rationalism and scepticism as the same, I do think they are similar and related, and both a product of education. Nor do I see them as bad. As a [relatively well] educated person rationalism and scepticism allow me the background and database (so to speak) to say "What you (generically) are telling me is not how I see things."

Learning by revelation offers its own set of circumstances. Are you meaning that God speaks directly to the individual? I will say that if God spoke directly to me and said "This is how it is." I would have to go with that, and really, I would have no trouble with that.

But...
(This is where the Rationalism/Scepticism factors in... grin)
I don't see him doing that.

So elaborate a little more on what you intend by "revelation."


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: ] #182900
03/24/17 01:03 AM
03/24/17 01:03 AM
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Elle  Offline
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Originally Posted By: GaryK
Creation, redemption, health, cleanliness, etc... are all taught in the Bible, as well as self-discipline, honor, duty, and much more. God taught the Israelites all these things through revelation.


While I agree with you that it is by revelation that the Lord reveal His truth.. we need to define what is a revelation and how does one receives it?

I believe there's a difference between having scriptures in a written form and equating this as "revelation" versus hearing personally the teaching of the Holy Spirit thru Him disciplining us in our own life what these really means. The latter is what I call revelation.

My view is the Israelites did not receive much revelation even though they witness and lived thru these events in the wilderness. They lived thru it without really understanding what was going on...because the Lord didn't open their ears for them to hear the voice of the Holy Spirit. "AV Dt 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day."

It was Moses that received the understanding (true revelation) of it and wrote it down in those 5 books that is known as the Torah. The problem is Moses wrote the Torah in the same language he heard the Lord speak and came to understand. See the Hebrew word Chiydah H2420 in Num 12:8. I believe Moses wrote the Torah in the same "dark Speech" language that he heard it from the Lord. This pose another level of "problem" besides not having opened ears to hear the Holy Spirit.

Also I believe that when Jesus came, the Jews of those days weren't that much closer in understanding "the revelation" given to Moses compared to the Israelites who lived during Moses times. And do we -- us Christians with all that was reveal to us thru Jesus Christ, His disciples and Paul -- do we understand these "revelation" much more than the Jews?

Maybe some little more, but really, not that much more.

Since Ex 13:12,13 was used up to now for this discussion, we could use it as a little exercise to see how we all understand what the Lord meant with the redeeming of the firstborn asses with a lamb? Can we explain how this scripture applies to us today? Or how Jesus fulfilled this particular law? And does this law have other fulfillment or application in the futur?

This little exercise might make clear how we all differ in interpretating the Old Testament law and how we convert it into the New Covenant understanding.


Blessings
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Daryl] #182905
03/24/17 04:02 AM
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Garywk  Offline
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Elle,

This time it is I that am slightly confused as to where you are going.

Why do you see a difference between the revelation given through God's servants the prophets, and any other revelation from God? Do you not see the Bible as fully inspired and trustworthy? It was Christ in the OT communicating through His prophets and it is the Holy Spirit in the NT communicating Christ's messages to Christ's servants of the NT.

I also don't understand your questions about the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant. The New Covenant is simply God's laws written in our hearts whereas the Old Covenant was the Israelites promising to keep God's laws on their stick/dime/power. They had no power to keep the covenant they made. We only have the power to obey the law after God writes them on the fleshly tablets of our hearts and we abide in Him. We would be just as helpless as the Israelites were if we tried to obey without God doing both the willing and the doing. God made that promise to them too, only they didn't want it. See the book of Deuteronomy.

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: ] #182906
03/24/17 12:17 PM
03/24/17 12:17 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary K
Elle,

This time it is I that am slightly confused as to where you are going.

Sorry for the confusion. I see now that we have very different understanding ... I went back to read the beginning of this thread by which I do not agree with the opening statement.

Maybe it would help you understand where I'm coming from and going if I tweeked the OP. This is what I would need to fix so it would reflect my current understanding :
Originally Posted By: DarylStatementwithElleCorrections
Christ neveralways observed the Ceremonial Law.
The Bible never records anysome instance where Jesus participated in the ceremonial law/sacrificial system. He couldn'tcan, because ceremonial law/sacrificial systemthe law which is the plan of salvation was instituted at the time of sin (Genesis 4:4)of the foundation of the world (Rev 13:8 "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world") to show how God was going to remove man's sins. If Jesus didn't participated in the ceremoniallaw system He would have been admitting that He was a sinner, in which He was not. "Christ passed through all the experiences of His childhood, youth, and manhood withoutby the observance of some ceremonial temple worship." (The Bible Echo, October 31, 1898)

And that quote came from "Bible Echo"? I'm not aware of that book. Does the Church say that this quote come from EGW's pen? If so... I would question that and I don't want to get into this question here. (see discussion here. BTW it is the same link provided below.)

There's way too much correction to address in that quote. That's probably why I didn't bother entering this discussion.

Again, so sorry for entering and all the confusion I created.

Originally Posted By: Gary
Why do you see a difference between the revelation given through God's servants the prophets,

Do you mean the "revelation" thru the writings of EGW? If so... I have made my stand clear many times already in this forum....check here for my latest expression of it.

Again the meaning of "revelation" needs to be define as we do not have the same definition of this word and we use it differently.

Originally Posted By: Gary
and any other revelation from God? Do you not see the Bible as fully inspired and trustworthy?

?? I trust in the inspiration of the Bible; however I repeat, these passages in scriptures won't become "revelations" to me until the Holy Spirit has taught these to me personally (1Jn 2:27). 'till then, all I can do is chew my cud and wait for the Holy Spirit's teachings & timing.

Originally Posted By: Gary
I also don't understand your questions about the Old Covenant vs the New Covenant. The New Covenant is simply God's laws written in our hearts whereas the Old Covenant was the Israelites promising to keep God's laws on their stick/dime/power.

I do believe we have some similar definition of the Old Covenant versus the New Covenant after reading some of your posts....and that's why I got confuse. However, I now see what you actually mean with it, versus what I mean with it...we differ greatly.

Maybe the below is how and why we differ in understanding.

Do you believe that the Law-Torah is prophetic? All that was given to the Israelites in the OT is prophetic? I do. But it was not fulfilled in the OT literal language way... what was said in the OT were TYPES & shadow (symbolic language) that pointed to greater things yet to come. How does Ex 13:12,13 Type & Shadow means to you in the new Covenant understanding of greater things to come? That's where the rubber meets the road and things becomes tangible.

To me Mat 5:18 says Christ will fulfilled all the words given in the Law(=Torah=Pentateuch) including the redeeming of the asses with the lamb said in Ex 13:12,13.

Or maybe you believe that part of the law is abolish because it is "ceremonial" and nailed to the cross like most denominations (including SDAs) has done?

Let's go back ...do you believe Jesus fulfilled Ex 13:12,13? if so how? if not ... you believe this part is nailed to the cross?

Originally Posted By: Gary
They had no power to keep the covenant they made. We only have the power to obey the law after God writes them on the fleshly tablets of our hearts and we abide in Him.

I fully agree with that statement...but to obey which law???

Our understanding(&definition) of the law or God's.

Most SDAs when they say "Law" they mean only the 10Cs. I differ it goes way further. At the minimum we may be able to agree that the COI after hearing the 10Cs refused to hear the rest of the law (see Ex 20:19 "And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.") which included all the judgments, ... I think it goes up to chapt 34?... I don't remember but up to wherever chapter where they closed the Old Covenant [marriage]. Paul describes this covenant in Galatian 4 as a Hagar-bond woman (slave) type of marriage and also as a child-slave in the Beg of Gal 4. Nothing wrong with that step, but we need to move on to the Sarah-Free woman type of marriage.

Most of the cases what we think we understand of the law often it is a case of coming from a Hagar or Child's perspective... this perspective often does not match the Holy Spirit's interpretation of it; thus in reality... that part of the law is yet not written in our heart tablet ...for the Holy Spirit has not taught(reveal) it to us yet. Can you agree with that?


Blessings
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Elle] #182908
03/24/17 08:19 PM
03/24/17 08:19 PM
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Garywk  Offline
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Elle,

First let me say that I really appreciate your honesty with me. You are straight out, up front, and direct. You cannot know how much I appreciate that.

You covered a lot of territory in your last post to me and I think we need to break things out of it one at a time or things will get really confusing for both us.

I will address, first, your question on Exodus 13:12,13. The context of what is said in those two verses is contained in the entire chapter. Verses 12 and 13 address the fact that God slew all the firstborn of Egypt, man and beast, when He redeemed Israel from the Egyptians. Thus, God required of the Israelites, as a remembrance of what He had done for them, that they sacrifice all of their firstborn beasts to Him as an offering of remembrance and gratitude for their deliverance. Verses 14,15 address what I have said above directly.

The redeeming of the firstborn of an ass by a lamb is, to me, just another piece of symbology along the lines of the plan of redemption. I think, and this is strictly my supposition, God allowed them to redeem the more valuable animal as a kindness towards them as the beast of burden was of significantly more financial value than a lamb was to them.

We are starting to enter the territory here of another subject expressed in Exodus 6:6. The word the King James renders there as "redeem" comes from the Hebrew word "ga'al". This is a very important concept in the plan of salvation. Every time we see the word "redeemer" in the King James in the OT, 18 times, it is translated from the Hebrew term "ga'al, Strong's #1350. God gave this law to the Hebrews and it is exemplified in the book of Ruth in which Boaz redeems Naomi's lands and marries her daughter-in-law Ruth. This is in fulfillment of law expressed in Leviticus 25 starting with verse 23. But this is an entire study all on its own. I spent several hours a day for several months studying this subject so it's pretty difficult to engage on this in the midst of a discussion about other things.

As to your question on whether or not Christ redeemed the asses by His death, I would say no. The reason being is a donkey has no knowledge of the concept of sin and forgiveness and thus cannot be guilty of sin. I can fully address this through the study of the concept of ga'al, but just allow me to give you a short overview. Jesus didn't come as a donkey. He is not near of kin to a donkey. Thus He could not pay for any "sins" a donkey could commit. This is according to the concept of ga'al.

Jesus came to be the next of kin to us so that He could pay our ransom for us and buy us back from the one who is holding us captive. That is a requirement of the law of inheritance given through Moses to the COI. This is the legal basis for allowing a substitute to pay our debt for us, the debt we could never pay on our own. This is a beautiful truth when understood.

Last edited by Gary K; 03/24/17 08:34 PM.
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Elle] #182917
03/25/17 07:11 AM
03/25/17 07:11 AM
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Elle  Offline
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Before proceeding in commenting to your other post....could you answer the following questions that was asked in the other post. That would help me more to understand your position and what you meant below. I've extracted all the unanswered questions and numbered them :

Q1.
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Gary
Why do you see a difference between the revelation given through God's servants the prophets,

Do you mean the "revelation" thru the writings of EGW?


Q2 : What constitute a "revelation" to you and how does someone get a "revelation"?

Q3 & Q4 are related. You did answer the first part of Q4 by saying that Jesus did NOT fulfill Ex 13:12,13. So I would assume that the answer of Q3 is NO & NO; Q4 is NO & Yes. Could you confirm?

Q3 : Do you believe that the Law-Torah is prophetic? All that was given to the Israelites in the OT is prophetic?

Q4. "Let's go back ...do you believe Jesus fulfilled Ex 13:12,13? if so how? if not ... you believe this part is nailed to the cross?"

Q5 :
Originally Posted By: Elle
Originally Posted By: Gary
They had no power to keep the covenant they made. We only have the power to obey the law after God writes them on the fleshly tablets of our hearts and we abide in Him.
I fully agree with that statement...but to obey which law???

Our understanding(&definition) of the law or God's.

Most SDAs when they say "Law" they mean only the 10Cs. I differ it goes way further. At the minimum we may be able to agree that the COI after hearing the 10Cs refused to hear the rest of the law (see Ex 20:19 "And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.") which included all the judgments, ...

Most of the cases what we think we understand of the law often it is a case of coming from a Hagar or Child's perspective... this perspective often does not match the Holy Spirit's interpretation of it; thus in reality... that part of the law is yet not written in our heart tablet ...for the Holy Spirit has not taught(reveal) it to us yet. Can you agree with that?


Blessings
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Elle] #182923
03/25/17 01:37 PM
03/25/17 01:37 PM
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Garywk  Offline
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Hi Elle,

The answers to your questions, at least as well as I understand them for some of them leave me a little hazy as to exactly what you mean.

1. I wrote that about the Bible. That was the context of what I was talking about. I know you don't accept Ellen White so it didn't even enter my head to include Ellen White in that question.

2.This one I am hazy on as to what you are really asking. The scriptures are God's greatest revelation to us. Whether or not we immediately grasp all that God is trying to say to us in scripture is irrelevant to me as the scriptures are still God's revelation of Himself and how He interacts with humanity whether I grasp the lesson being taught in some particular passage or not. I guess I'm trying to say revelation does not depend on my understanding it to be revelation.

The scriptures are the place I go see if my thinking on a spiritual subject is correct. I judge my ideas by scripture as to whether they are correct or not, not the other way around.

3. I'm even hazier on this question. Yes, the Torah is/was prophetic in nature. The entire Bible is. But some parts of it are clearly not prophetic in nature. The book of Proverbs has little in it that is prophetic, but rather is very instructive about human nature. Other parts of the OT are instructive too, rather than prophetic. Same with some of the writings of Paul. His commentary on carnal nature vs the fruit of the Spirit is not prophetic in nature but is educational so that we can understand what and who God really wants us to be. I think it's a mistake to try to spiritualize away that which is instructional by trying to make it prophetic in some way.

4. I'm even hazier on my understanding of this question. What was Jesus supposed to fulfill in that specific instance? The entire chapter has things that are prophetic in nature in that they are symbolic of Christ coming as the Messiah, but to make everything somehow prophetic when they were actually pointing back in time to God bringing Israel out of Egypt just seems like a mistake to me. The overall instruction about the Israelites on how they came out of Egypt into Canaan is prophetic in one sense. It is symbolic of us coming out the world and entering the heavenly Canaan, but I can't see how each tiny part of it is specifically prophetic.

Furthermore, some prophetic parts of the Torah has a single specific fulfillment as they pointed to Christ, and when He came He fulfilled those prophecies. How could they have multiple prophetic meanings as there will never be another Messiah? There will never be another Messiah. To think that might be so is to me an insult to Christ's life and death and that His sacrifice is somehow an incomplete sacrifice for sin. This area is where your questions get really confusing to me as to what you are really trying to get at. It seems to me that you are trying to force meanings into things that were never meant to be there.

5. The moral law is what we will be judged by. Jesus made that plain enough multiple times. I see nothing at all in scripture that says I will be judged on whether or not I sacrifice a lamb as an offering for a sin I have committed or I wear a piece of clothing made out of multiple types of thread. Do you? And do you think that is something that is required of us? When you start trying to make everything to have multiple meanings the areas you can get into can get really strange. Yes, some prophecies have dual fulfillments but that doesn't mean they all do, and some instruction has more than one purpose, but that doesn't mean all instruction from God has more than one purpose.

The last question under 5 simply leaves me puzzled. I have no idea as to what you are referring to.

Last edited by Gary K; 03/25/17 01:51 PM.
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: ] #182932
03/25/17 06:48 PM
03/25/17 06:48 PM
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Originally Posted By: Gary K
The scriptures are the place I go see if my thinking on a spiritual subject is correct. I judge my ideas by scripture as to whether they are correct or not, not the other way around.

But...
You also have a certain understanding of Scripture.
Therefore, to judge [your] ideas by scripture is really to judge your ideas by your ideas of scripture, which is actually a circular argument.

The best we can hope for, IMO, is to diligently strive to identify our own biases, which involves actively researching both sides of a viewpoint, and clearly understanding the dynamics of the various views. This helps to identify the strengths and weaknesses of ones position.


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: ] #182935
03/25/17 07:50 PM
03/25/17 07:50 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary K
Hi Elle,

The answers to your questions, at least as well as I understand them for some of them leave me a little hazy as to exactly what you mean.

1. I wrote that about the Bible. That was the context of what I was talking about. I know you don't accept Ellen White so it didn't even enter my head to include Ellen White in that question.

2.This one I am hazy on as to what you are really asking. The scriptures are God's greatest revelation to us. Whether or not we immediately grasp all that God is trying to say to us in scripture is irrelevant to me as the scriptures are still God's revelation of Himself and how He interacts with humanity whether I grasp the lesson being taught in some particular passage or not. I guess I'm trying to say revelation does not depend on my understanding it to be revelation.

The scriptures are the place I go see if my thinking on a spiritual subject is correct. I judge my ideas by scripture as to whether they are correct or not, not the other way around.

3. I'm even hazier on this question. Yes, the Torah is/was prophetic in nature. The entire Bible is. But some parts of it are clearly not prophetic in nature. The book of Proverbs has little in it that is prophetic, but rather is very instructive about human nature. Other parts of the OT are instructive too, rather than prophetic. Same with some of the writings of Paul. His commentary on carnal nature vs the fruit of the Spirit is not prophetic in nature but is educational so that we can understand what and who God really wants us to be. I think it's a mistake to try to spiritualize away that which is instructional by trying to make it prophetic in some way.

4. I'm even hazier on my understanding of this question. What was Jesus supposed to fulfill in that specific instance? The entire chapter has things that are prophetic in nature in that they are symbolic of Christ coming as the Messiah, but to make everything somehow prophetic when they were actually pointing back in time to God bringing Israel out of Egypt just seems like a mistake to me. The overall instruction about the Israelites on how they came out of Egypt into Canaan is prophetic in one sense. It is symbolic of us coming out the world and entering the heavenly Canaan, but I can't see how each tiny part of it is specifically prophetic.

Furthermore, some prophetic parts of the Torah has a single specific fulfillment as they pointed to Christ, and when He came He fulfilled those prophecies. How could they have multiple prophetic meanings as there will never be another Messiah? There will never be another Messiah. To think that might be so is to me an insult to Christ's life and death and that His sacrifice is somehow an incomplete sacrifice for sin. This area is where your questions get really confusing to me as to what you are really trying to get at. It seems to me that you are trying to force meanings into things that were never meant to be there.

5. The moral law is what we will be judged by. Jesus made that plain enough multiple times. I see nothing at all in scripture that says I will be judged on whether or not I sacrifice a lamb as an offering for a sin I have committed or I wear a piece of clothing made out of multiple types of thread. Do you? And do you think that is something that is required of us? When you start trying to make everything to have multiple meanings the areas you can get into can get really strange. Yes, some prophecies have dual fulfillments but that doesn't mean they all do, and some instruction has more than one purpose, but that doesn't mean all instruction from God has more than one purpose.

The last question under 5 simply leaves me puzzled. I have no idea as to what you are referring to.

Tx Gary for taking the time to reply to all of my questions with openness and sincerity. This will help. I'll get back to this later when time permits. Tx again.


Blessings
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Nadi] #182937
03/25/17 08:08 PM
03/25/17 08:08 PM
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Elle  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nadi
Originally Posted By: Gary K
The scriptures are the place I go see if my thinking on a spiritual subject is correct. I judge my ideas by scripture as to whether they are correct or not, not the other way around.

But...
You also have a certain understanding of Scripture.
Therefore, to judge [your] ideas by scripture is really to judge your ideas by your ideas of scripture, which is actually a circular argument.

The best we can hope for, IMO, is to diligently strive to identify our own biases, which involves actively researching both sides of a viewpoint, and clearly understanding the dynamics of the various views. This helps to identify the strengths and weaknesses of ones position.

Good points, & I agree.

Not that Nadi had said this or believe in this; but I want to make clear that I still wouldn't consider this level of intellectual process as "revelation".


Blessings
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Nadi] #182938
03/25/17 08:12 PM
03/25/17 08:12 PM
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Garywk  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nadi
Originally Posted By: Gary K
The scriptures are the place I go see if my thinking on a spiritual subject is correct. I judge my ideas by scripture as to whether they are correct or not, not the other way around.

But...
You also have a certain understanding of Scripture.
Therefore, to judge [your] ideas by scripture is really to judge your ideas by your ideas of scripture, which is actually a circular argument.

The best we can hope for, IMO, is to diligently strive to identify our own biases, which involves actively researching both sides of a viewpoint, and clearly understanding the dynamics of the various views. This helps to identify the strengths and weaknesses of ones position.


We have the promise of Jesus that contradicts your statement that is based upon Greek thinking. He said, I will send you a Comforter who will lead you into all truth. If we surrender self to God He will lead us into all of His truth. We can trust His promises as He keeps His word. Part and parcel of that surrender is surrendering our own biases. I do not study the word of God without asking Him to ensure that I do not study to fulfill/support my own biases. I have no reason to think that God will not do that for me based upon the promise given us by Jesus that I paraphrased here. I fully trust Him to keep His word to us.

I do not find that applying principles of pagan thinking to God's word to be a reasonable approach to studying God's word. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum of spiritual knowledge. What it seems to me that you are suggesting is that all other sources are equal in validity and truth to the Bible, and that is simply not true.

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Elle] #182942
03/25/17 10:58 PM
03/25/17 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted By: Elle
Not that Nadi had said this or believe in this; but I want to make clear that I still wouldn't consider this level of intellectual process as "revelation".


Elle in this case I agree with you. It is nowhere near "revelation. Unless Gary has a different idea of revelation. However, he has not yet defined his idea of "revelation."


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: ] #182943
03/25/17 11:23 PM
03/25/17 11:23 PM
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Nadi  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary K
We have the promise of Jesus that contradicts your statement that is based upon Greek thinking.


Originally Posted By: Gary K
I do not find that applying principles of pagan thinking to God's word to be a reasonable approach to studying God's word. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum of spiritual knowledge. What it seems to me that you are suggesting is that all other sources are equal in validity and truth to the Bible, and that is simply not true.


Since you have also been born and raised in the Western world it stands to reason that your thinking is as much "Greek" as mine. This is somewhat analogous to the pot calling the kettle black. (Yes, this is an assumption on my part, but I'm guessing I'm not far wrong.)

I have asked several questions in previous posts to try to understand your point of view. Up to now you have studiously avoided answering them, and resisted offering your view of "revelation." Yet now I am charged with "suggesting... that all other sources are equal in validity and truth to the Bible, and that is simply not true." This I see as unfair, since I have offered no viewpoint of any kind, but only asked for clarity on yours.

Originally Posted By: Gary K
First let me say that I really appreciate your honesty with me. You are straight out, up front, and direct. You cannot know how much I appreciate that.

I also would appreciate "honesty...straight out, up front, and direct."


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Nadi] #182967
03/26/17 05:43 PM
03/26/17 05:43 PM
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Garywk  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Nadi
Originally Posted By: Gary K
We have the promise of Jesus that contradicts your statement that is based upon Greek thinking.


Originally Posted By: Gary K
I do not find that applying principles of pagan thinking to God's word to be a reasonable approach to studying God's word. They are at opposite ends of the spectrum of spiritual knowledge. What it seems to me that you are suggesting is that all other sources are equal in validity and truth to the Bible, and that is simply not true.


Since you have also been born and raised in the Western world it stands to reason that your thinking is as much "Greek" as mine. This is somewhat analogous to the pot calling the kettle black. (Yes, this is an assumption on my part, but I'm guessing I'm not far wrong.)

I have asked several questions in previous posts to try to understand your point of view. Up to now you have studiously avoided answering them, and resisted offering your view of "revelation." Yet now I am charged with "suggesting... that all other sources are equal in validity and truth to the Bible, and that is simply not true." This I see as unfair, since I have offered no viewpoint of any kind, but only asked for clarity on yours.

Originally Posted By: Gary K
First let me say that I really appreciate your honesty with me. You are straight out, up front, and direct. You cannot know how much I appreciate that.

I also would appreciate "honesty...straight out, up front, and direct."


First off I have been honest, straight out, up front, and direct with you. I have answered every question of yours exactly as I understood it.

And, yes, I have been educated the same way you have. However, over the last few years I have learned to set aside my natural tendency toward tearing things from the Bible apart. It started when I began to realize just how much of an effect the way I was educated had on my approach to the Bible. I just accept the Bible, as it is written, and from that point begin comparing scripture with scripture. I use Strong's to look at the underlying Greek and Hebrew.

When you said, "looking at things from all angles" I took that to mean including the kind of so-called scholarship that organizations such as the Jesus Seminar indulges in, and that the group that published the "Open Bible" used. Their scholarship is so anti-Biblical that it leads them to reject the divinity of Christ, the inspiration of the Bible, and much more. I took it that way because that type of "logic" is becoming quite common in Christian circles. If you didn't mean that I apologize for the misunderstanding.

That people, including myself, use or have used, the principles of Greek thinking/logic because of our educational system's bias towards that type of logic doesn't mean I think any less of them. It is who we are. It becomes a part of us because it surrounds us daily.

I still use that type of logic outside of Bible study. I tear non-inspired sources apart and look for logical errors. I just don't do that with the Bible anymore.

What did I not answer about revelation, to your satisfaction? I answered the question as I understood it within the context of what was being talked about.

Last edited by Gary K; 03/26/17 05:46 PM.
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Daryl] #182970
03/26/17 08:21 PM
03/26/17 08:21 PM
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Garywk  Offline
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Nadi,

I get the feeling from your posts that I am somehow being unreasonable and judgmental in saying that Greek thinking dominates our culture and that we are highly influenced by it.

Read the following links.

http://www.leadershipclassics.org/AncientGreekCulture&Civilization.html

http://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/by-to...tter-today.html

https://blog.udemy.com/greek-philosophy/

Now tell me how I am being unreasonable or judgmental in what I have said about the influence of Greek thinking on our culture.

The Greek influence in our culture is so embedded that we are almost unconscious of it in our everyday lives. Aristotle, Plato, and Socrates, as well as other Greek thinkers are held up as wise, intelligent people from whom we should still be learning today, and their ideas are. and have been for centuries, put into place all around us. That they were not Christian, but pagan, is a foregone conclusion, as we do not see them promoting Christian/Jewish ideals and solutions to the world's problems.

Is it reasonable to apply their modes of thought to God's word in attempting to understand it? Is not their mode of thought one that comes from the enemy of God and mankind, the devil, since they do not promote God as the solution to the problems the address and source of the ideas they promote?

The rationalists of the 18th and 19th centuries applied the ideals of "reason", originally taught by the Greeks, to all things scriptural and taught people to be skeptical of all revelation from God. They rejected inspiration from God. They made out Isaiah and Homer to be "inspired" on the same level, but gave the nod to Homer because he used Greek instead of Hebrew as the language with which he wrote. They denied miracles because, well, to their "scientific" minds miracles could not happen. They denied the divinity of Christ because a virgin just couldn't give birth in their view of the world.

The fact that there is some wisdom associated with Greek thinking makes it all the more dangerous to the world. The devil has always included some truth with his deceptions. He started that way in deceiving the angels in heaven and he continued that in his deception of Eve. He has never abandoned that strategy. He even used it with Jesus in the wilderness temptations. He quoted parts of scripture to Him. He just used it deceptively.

We cannot out think him. He is far more intelligent than we are. Plus he has been studying human nature for the entire time humanity has existed. His knowledge of how to deceive is way beyond our capacity to recognize it. The only way we can recognize his deceptions to is to trust fully in both God and the Bible and take the Bible as it reads. Like Paul said, it is sharper than a two-edged sword and is capable of discerning between the intent and the thought. This means we just have to take the Bible as it reads. If a passage is clearly prophetic then apply prophetic principles to it. If it is instructional study it to see exactly what the instruction is about and how far reaching it is. A couple of examples of this are what Jesus taught in the Sermon on the Mount by His expansion of what the is meant in the 10 commandments and His commentary on the Golden Rule. He often did this via parable too.

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: ] #183004
03/28/17 01:38 PM
03/28/17 01:38 PM
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Nadi  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gary K
First off I have been honest, straight out, up front, and direct with you. I have answered every question of yours exactly as I understood it.


Originally Posted By: Gary K
What did I not answer about revelation, to your satisfaction? I answered the question as I understood it within the context of what was being talked about.


So I went back and re-read the posts relating to "Greek- thinking/revelation" and it is possible that we both focused on a different aspect of the discussion or question. This is probably because I did not make myself clear in what I was looking for.

I will try to lay out the exact question(s) I am seeking an answer to. Here are the two questions regarding your understanding of "learning by revelation"

Originally Posted By: Nadi
Learning by revelation offers its own set of circumstances. Are you meaning that God speaks directly to the individual? I will say that if God spoke directly to me and said "This is how it is." I would have to go with that, and really, I would have no trouble with that.

But...
(This is where the Rationalism/Scepticism factors in... grin)
I don't see him doing that.

So elaborate a little more on what you intend by "revelation."

Originally Posted By: Elle
Q2 : What constitute a "revelation" to you and how does someone get a "revelation"?

Here is your response:
Originally Posted By: Gary K
2.This one I am hazy on as to what you are really asking. The scriptures are God's greatest revelation to us. Whether or not we immediately grasp all that God is trying to say to us in scripture is irrelevant to me as the scriptures are still God's revelation of Himself and how He interacts with humanity whether I grasp the lesson being taught in some particular passage or not. I guess I'm trying to say revelation does not depend on my understanding it to be revelation.

The scriptures are the place I go see if my thinking on a spiritual subject is correct. I judge my ideas by scripture as to whether they are correct or not, not the other way around.

Going back to a previous statement:
Originally Posted By: Gary K
If you look at the Bible God teaches us through revelation about Himself and how He would have us live. Creation, redemption, health, cleanliness, etc... are all taught in the Bible, as well as self-discipline, honor, duty, and much more. God taught the Israelites all these things through revelation. Thus He was teaching them to look to Him for all true learning.

Greek thinking is much different. It is based upon debate, like what Paul got into on Mars Hill. In debate, which the Greeks perfected, we look to tear apart ideas and see if they make sense to us, to our understanding of things. It makes our thinking, our ideas, the standard by which we judge all things that come across our paths.

That is much different than learning via revelation in the way God was teaching the Israelites down through the centuries.

Although I have no interest in discussing Greek thinking, I am interested in discussing your "revelation," / "learning by revelation."

In my current understanding, here are (some of) the questions:
1. If, by "revelation," you mean God speaks to us individually and tells us what we need to know, how does this operate? What areas of learning are included in this?

2. If, by "revelation," you mean God's revealed will in the Bible, how should one then understand the Bible? Are the OT Hebraic laws and customs binding on us today, since they are, after all, God's teachings?

So how does one "learn by revelation" in 2017? And what part does Isaiah 1:18 - "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord:" - play in this idea?


"Our vision is often more obstructed by what we think we know than by our lack of knowledge." K. Stendahl
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Daryl] #183036
03/31/17 01:44 AM
03/31/17 01:44 AM
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Garywk  Offline
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Colville, Wa
Nadi,

I will try to answer you in a single answer.

When I think of revelation I think of God speaking to and through His prophets. I also think that God leads us in our study through the Holy Spirit. However, there is a catch to that because the Holy Spirit, if we are not listening to Him on other issues in our life, cannot work with us as He would like to because of our unbelief. (I see all of our disobedience to God's commands as being symptomatic of unbelief. See Hebrews 3.)

Jesus taught that our healing, spiritual and otherwise, depends on our belief/trust in God. He said repeatedly to those He healed that it would be done to them according to their faith. Thus if we have unbelief in our hearts concerning the word of God, or we really do not want to do as the Bible says we should, it affects how much He can really lead us and heal our spiritual woes.

I suppose that the Holy Spirit leading us in Bible study and our lives could be considered revelation, but I have just never thought of it that way. I just see it as God keeping His promises to us as individuals and leading us in the way we need to go to be fitted for heaven.

As your last question from Isaiah, to me God is telling me I need to spend time with Him. I need to tell Him of my doubts and fears, the things I do not understand, and by me surrendering self allow Him to change me and lead me in the way He wants me to go. To me the surrender of self is the most important part of my relationship with God. It is by that surrender that the Holy Spirit can show me the answers to my questions and doubts, and can re-create me back into the image of God. We must have a personal relationship with God, and that, since He is infinitely superior to us, means we ask the questions and God answers us. Most of His answers come through His word. If we think we have an answer from God on something, and it doesn't agree with what the Word says, then that supposed answer did not come from God.

I know I have asked a lot of questions over the years and sometimes my Bible study will reveal the answer in a short time. Sometimes not so short a time, and often, I come across the answers to my questions while not even thinking of the questions I had asked, but studying something else entirely. The answer will just stand out and then I will recall the question.

How should we understand the Bible? As God's letter to each of us as individuals. Do all things, such as the ceremonial laws of the OT apply to us? No. However, it's hard to set a hard and fast line of this does and this doesn't, because there are lessons in all of the Bible that we can learn from and we ignore them at our peril. I find a great deal in the OT that applies to me, and that I can learn from. To me the Bible is all relevant. It is a complete, comprehensive book that God uses to educate us. It's like Paul said, all these things were written as examples for us to learn from.

Now, I'm not sure if I answered everything to your satisfaction. If I didn't, ask away again. I have no problem with answering you.

Last edited by Gary K; 03/31/17 01:45 AM.
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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Daryl] #183222
04/10/17 01:25 PM
04/10/17 01:25 PM
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Alchemy  Offline
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Active Member 2018

Most Dedicated Member
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 2,264
Asia
Maybe it's better to say Christ never observed the old covenant?

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Re: Christ Never Observed the Ceremonial Law [Re: Alchemy] #183269
04/12/17 10:11 AM
04/12/17 10:11 AM
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Elle  Offline
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Died February 12, 2019

2500+ Member
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 2,536
Canada
Originally Posted By: Alchemy
Maybe it's better to say Christ never observed the old covenant?

At least that's a tiny bit more accurate. But for most Christians (including SDAs) this still translate as Jesus didn't keep Moses OT Law. That's false doctrines that promotes blindness.

This false doctrines then leads us to view OT Laws as non-existent and non-relevant to us and say things of this sort :
Quote:
I will address, first, your question on Exodus 13:12,13. The context of what is said in those two verses is contained in the entire chapter. Verses 12 and 13 address the fact that God slew all the firstborn of Egypt, man and beast, when He redeemed Israel from the Egyptians. Thus, God required of the Israelites, as a remembrance of what He had done for them, that they sacrifice all of their firstborn beasts to Him as an offering of remembrance and gratitude for their deliverance.

...God allowed them to redeem the more valuable animal as a kindness towards them as the beast of burden was of significantly more financial value than a lamb was to them.

This is an example of not looking at the OT as prophecies. If this person would of been taught that all the OT is prophecy, then maybe he would of looked at why God called the COI donkeys(aka asses) several times in scriptures including Ex 13. I know people might find this insulting, but according to the Lord...we are all a bunch of donkeys(==all of us) that needs to be ALL redeemed with a spotless lamb(==Jesus).



How about repeating & beleiving Jesus own words in Mat 5:18 instead?

AV Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.


Blessings
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