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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: dedication] #157008
10/10/13 06:33 PM
10/10/13 06:33 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: dedication
M: Jesus gives life to the laws of nature - not evil angels. Disease cannot do anything in and of itself. It does not have the power to act independent of Jesus. Disease can do what it does because Jesus does what He does. Everything in nature would cease to act if Jesus ceased to give it life. In the case of Job, evil angels were permitted to manipulate the forces of nature. Tragedy followed. Nevertheless, evil angels cannot give life to the forces of nature. Only Jesus can give life to nature. Disaster happened because Jesus empowered nature to respond to the actions of evil angels.

D: Yes God established the laws of nature. . . I'm not sure what is meant by "self acting". . . Is God responsible?

The laws of nature are not "self-acting" in the sense Jesus did not create them to act on their own without His involvement. The following passage is insightful:

Quote:
Many teach that matter possesses vital power. They hold that certain properties are imparted to matter, and it is then left to act through its own inherent power; and that the operations of nature are carried on in harmony with fixed laws that God Himself cannot interfere with. This is false science, and is sustained by nothing in the Word of God. {BLJ 241.2}

Nature is not self-acting; it is the servant of its Creator. God does not annul His laws nor work contrary to them; but He is continually using them as His instruments. Nature testifies of an intelligence, a presence, an active agency, that works in, and through, and above its laws. There is in nature the continual working of the Father and the Son. Said Christ, “My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.” {BLJ 241.3}

God has finished His creative work, but His energy is still exerted in upholding the objects of His creation. It is not because the mechanism that has once been set in motion continues its work by its own inherent energy that the pulse beats and breath follows breath; but every breath, every pulsation of the heart, is an evidence of the all-pervading care of Him in whom we live and have our being. {BLJ 241.4}

It is not because of inherent power that year by year the earth produces its bounties and continues its motion around the sun. The hand of God guides the planets, and keeps them in position in their orderly march through the heavens. It is through His power that vegetation flourishes, that the leaves appear and the flowers bloom. His word controls the elements, and by Him the valleys are made fruitful. He covers the heavens with clouds, and prepares rain for the earth; He “maketh grass to grow upon the mountains.” “He giveth snow like wool: he scattereth the hoarfrost like ashes.” “When he uttereth his voice, there is a multitude of waters in the heavens, and he causeth the vapours to ascend from the ends of the earth; he maketh lightnings with rain, and bringeth forth the wind out of his treasures.” . . . {BLJ 241.5}

His care is over all the works of His hands. Nothing is too great to be directed by Him; nothing is too small to escape His notice.—Signs of the Times, March 20, 1884. {BLJ 241.6}

God is constantly employed in upholding and using as His servants the things that He has made. He works through the laws of nature, using them as His instruments. They are not self-acting. Nature in her work testifies of the intelligent presence and active agency of a Being who moves in all things according to His will. . . {MH 416.1}

It is not by inherent power that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of the Infinite One is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power continually exercised that keeps the earth in position in its rotation. It is God who causes the sun to rise in the heavens. He opens the windows of heaven and gives rain. . . {MH 416.2}

It is by His power that vegetation is caused to flourish, that every leaf appears, every flower blooms, every fruit develops. {MH 416.3}

The mechanism of the human body cannot be fully understood; it presents mysteries that baffle the most intelligent. It is not as the result of a mechanism, which, once set in motion, continues its work, that the pulse beats and breath follows breath. In God we live and move and have our being. The beating heart, the throbbing pulse, every nerve and muscle in the living organism, is kept in order and activity by the power of an ever-present God. {MH 417.1}

The Bible shows us God in His high and holy place, not in a state of inactivity, not in silence and solitude, but surrounded by ten thousand times ten thousand and thousands of thousands of holy beings, all waiting to do His will. Through these messengers He is in active communication with every part of His dominion. By His Spirit He is everywhere present. Through the agency of His Spirit and His angels He ministers to the children of men. {MH 417.2}

The idea that Jesus need only withdraw His protection and the forces of nature will wreak havoc assumes nature is self-acting. If Jesus were to withdraw, the forces of nature would cease to act.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157009
10/10/13 06:55 PM
10/10/13 06:55 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus gives life to the laws of nature - not evil angels. Disease cannot do anything in and of itself. It does not have the power to act independent of Jesus. Disease can do what it does because Jesus does what He does. Everything in nature would cease to act if Jesus ceased to give it life. In the case of Job, evil angels were permitted to manipulate the forces of nature. Tragedy followed. Nevertheless, evil angels cannot give life to the forces of nature. Only Jesus can give life to nature. Disaster happened because Jesus empowered nature to respond to the actions of evil angels.

A: Question - is God the cause of evil?

Jesus is the source of life for everything in the Universe - angel, human, animal, plant, natural laws, etc. Everything would cease to exist or function if Jesus ceased to work. Nothing is self-acting in and of itself. Everything depends on Jesus for life and action.

For example, evil angels exist because Jesus gives them life on a minute by minute basis. They do not have life in and of themselves. They are free to make decisions. However, Jesus works to ensure the outcome of their choices do not exceed the limits He has established. When they manipulate the forces of nature to cause disease, death, or disaster it is Jesus who empowers nature to act accordingly. Nature is not self-acting. Evil angels cannot empower the forces of nature to act.

Is Jesus the cause of evil? It depends on your definition of evil. Punishment is not evil. It is justice. When Jesus punished the antediluvians with a Deluge it was not evil. When He permits evil angels to cause disease, death, and destruction Jesus is not evil. The evil angels are evil - but Jesus is not evil.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157022
10/10/13 09:58 PM
10/10/13 09:58 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: mm
Evil angels cannot empower the forces of nature to act.
Hm.
Originally Posted By: EGW
It is Satan's power that is at work at sea and on land, bringing calamity and distress, and sweeping off multitudes to make sure of his prey. And storm and tempest both by sea and land will be, for Satan has come down in great wrath. He is at work. He knows his time is short and, if he is not restrained, we shall see more terrible manifestations of his power than we have ever dreamed of. {14MR 3.1}
But MM, you'd have me believe that it is God that is actually behind this evil. AND, if evil angels kill, that is evil, but if God kills, that is not evil. Gotcha.
Originally Posted By: EGW
In the day of final judgment, every lost soul will understand the nature of his own rejection of truth. The cross will be presented, and its real bearing will be seen by every mind that has been blinded by transgression. Before the vision of Calvary with its mysterious Victim, sinners will stand condemned. Every lying excuse will be swept away. Human apostasy will appear in its heinous character. Men will see what their choice has been. Every question of truth and error in the long-standing controversy will then have been made plain. In the judgment of the universe, God will stand clear of blame for the existence or continuance of evil. It will be demonstrated that the divine decrees are not accessory to sin. There was no defect in God's government, no cause for disaffection. When the thoughts of all hearts shall be revealed, both the loyal and the rebellious will unite in declaring, "Just and true are Thy ways, Thou King of saints. Who shall not fear Thee, O Lord, and glorify Thy name? . . . for Thy judgments are made manifest." Revelation 15:3-4. {DA 58.1}
Sin is the cause of all death and destruction, and Satan is the "AUTHOR" of sin. God is not the cause of evil.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157025
10/10/13 11:36 PM
10/10/13 11:36 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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APL, who do you believe upholds the laws that give the forces of nature life and enables them to act?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157032
10/11/13 12:44 AM
10/11/13 12:44 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, who do you believe upholds the laws that give the forces of nature life and enables them to act?
MM - let me ask a counter question - is everything that happens on this earth God's will? In your answer, consider Matthew 6:10.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157034
10/11/13 01:22 AM
10/11/13 01:22 AM
asygo  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Quote:
It is not by inherent power that year by year the earth yields its bounties and continues its march around the sun. The hand of the Infinite One is perpetually at work guiding this planet. It is God's power continually exercised that keeps the earth in position in its rotation. It is God who causes the sun to rise in the heavens. He opens the windows of heaven and gives rain. . . {MH 416.2}

The idea that Jesus need only withdraw His protection and the forces of nature will wreak havoc assumes nature is self-acting. If Jesus were to withdraw, the forces of nature would cease to act.

This is an important concept - God created the universe, but it will cease to operate without His constant work.

Consider this, "It is God's power continually exercised that keeps the earth in position in its rotation." God continually exercises His power to keep gravity functioning. What if He stopped? Well, since gravity holds our planet together, the "pieces" wouldn't stick together anymore. You would have planet pieces just shooting off here and there. Since gravity also holds the sun and the rest of the solar system together, the sun and its planets would all disintegrate to small pieces.

How small would the pieces be? Let's consider that now. It's not too much of a stretch to conclude that if God must constantly exercise His power to make gravity work, that also holds true for all the other forces we know about. There's goes the electromagnetic force, and with it go the strong and weak nuclear forces. So, no compounds, no molecules, no atoms, no protons, no neutrons. Everything disintegrates into quarks and other "fundamental" particles. And that's just what we know today. Who knows what forces hold those things together.

So what happens to disease? Gone. What happens to earthquakes? Gone. What about tornadoes? Gone. How about heathen armies? Gone. Locusts and snakes? Gone. People? Gone. EVERYTHING is gone.

The fact that people, even bad people, and diseases and disasters exist means that God has not stopped doing what He does. If God really stopped, as some suggest He does on occasion, everything would cease to exist. All these "bad" things require God's power to be "continually exercised."


By God's grace,
Arnold

There is no excuse for any one in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. RH 12/20/1892
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: asygo] #157035
10/11/13 01:33 AM
10/11/13 01:33 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: MM
The idea that Jesus need only withdraw His protection and the forces of nature will wreak havoc assumes nature is self-acting. If Jesus were to withdraw, the forces of nature would cease to act.

Originally Posted By: EGW
I was shown that the judgments of God would not come directly out from the Lord upon them, but in this way: They place themselves beyond His protection. He warns, corrects, reproves, and points out the only path of safety; then if those who have been the objects of His special care will follow their own course independent of the Spirit of God, after repeated warnings, if they choose their own way, then He does not commission His angels to prevent Satan's decided attacks upon them. {14MR 3.1}
Originally Posted By: EGW
We cannot know how much we owe to Christ for the peace and protection which we enjoy. It is the restraining power of God that prevents mankind from passing fully under the control of Satan. The disobedient and unthankful have great reason for gratitude for God's mercy and long-suffering in holding in check the cruel, malignant power of the evil one. But when men pass the limits of divine forbearance, that restraint is removed. God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. Every ray of light rejected, every warning despised or unheeded, every passion indulged, every transgression of the law of God, is a seed sown which yields its unfailing harvest. The Spirit of God, persistently resisted, is at last withdrawn from the sinner, and then there is left no power to control the evil passions of the soul, and no protection from the malice and enmity of Satan. The destruction of Jerusalem is a fearful and solemn warning to all who are trifling with the offers of divine grace and resisting the pleadings of divine mercy. Never was there given a more decisive testimony to God's hatred of sin and to the certain punishment that will fall upon the guilty. {GC 36.1}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: APL] #157036
10/11/13 01:37 AM
10/11/13 01:37 AM
APL  Offline
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Is it God's will we have hurricanes, earthquakes, and floods? Is that what God desires? Is not this planet a demonstration of what will happen when if sin were allowed to reign? These things are NOT God's will.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: Mountain Man] #157039
10/11/13 02:34 AM
10/11/13 02:34 AM
dedication  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, who do you believe upholds the laws that give the forces of nature life and enables them to act?


Yes, God upholds the laws of nature, and those laws were placed there for humanities well being. The minute balance in a multitude of conditions on this planet that sustain life is mind boggling and can only be explained by acknowledging a loving Creator.

It's because people have been "destroying the earth" and manipulating those laws that things are going crazy.

God made trees for a reason.
People cut them down and as far as eye can see are crop fields. Then they blame God when the winds race across those fields and carry away top soil and dry up the land?

God made precisely measured air in just the right combination for life.
People pollute that air with all manner of exhausts and then blame God for emphysema, asthma and other breathing problems?

The level of glucose in the blood is important. Too much and we become diabetic; too little and we pass out. God has created in our systems many ways to keep the glucose level within a certain range: 90 – 140 milligrams per deciliter.
Do we blame Him when we eat a fat/sugar rich diet that overwhelms all those check mechanisms and we end up with diabetes (or other disease)?



When God destroys those who destroy the earth, He is destroying DESTRUCTION and bringing it to a final end, and by so doing He is restoring LIFE.

Quote:
Rev. 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away;
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 2) [Re: dedication] #157043
10/11/13 02:59 AM
10/11/13 02:59 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
The point I understand MM to be saying however is that nature works the way it does ONLY because of God, and if there are hurricanes, earthquakes and floods, it is because that is God's will. I hope I am misunderstanding him.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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