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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #159174
12/12/13 03:35 PM
12/12/13 03:35 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus promised to use hornets to drive out the Canaanites. But He never did. Why not? Instead, He commanded Moses and Joshua and the Judges to do it.

A: Yes, WHY NOT? Because the people rejected God. Their unbelief! This was a constant problem. Was it God's plan to send the people into the wilderness for 40 years? Nope. Why did they then spend 40 years there? Unbelief. Hardness of heart. Just as with divorce and polygamy.

M: The facts do not support your conclusion. When Jesus commanded Moses and Joshua and the Judges to attack His enemies not once did He send hornets. Your accusation He withheld hornets because of unbelief and hardened hearts is unwarranted. Moses and Joshua and the Judges were faithful and obedient - not hardened and unbelieving.

A: And remember God also gave rules for divorce and polygamy, both of which God hated.

Jesus did not command the Hebrews to kill criminals and combatants. He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to do it. They were not hardened and unbelieving. Jesus didn't speak directly to the Hebrews. He spoke through Moses, Joshua, and the Judges. Not once did Jesus explain to Moses, Joshua, and the Judges it wasn't His plan to deploy the Hebrews to kill criminals and combatants. Nor did He ever tell them not to. Plus Jesus never sent hornets.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #159177
12/12/13 05:41 PM
12/12/13 05:41 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Many think that the fires of heaven are the only effort God made to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, but that is not true. If it were true the argument could be made that God withdrew His presence and revealed His Glory to the plains and this destroyed the wicked, but scripture and the Testimonies disagree with that idea.

Read this account. There are many things like this recorded in the book "the Truth about angels", a compendium of angelic Testimonial.

"The angels revealed to Lot the object of their mission: “We will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the Lord; and the Lord hath sent us to destroy it.” The strangers whom Lot had endeavored to protect, now promised to protect him, and to save also all the members of his family who would flee with him from the wicked city.... Lot went out to warn his children. He repeated the words of the angels, “Up, get you out of this place; for the Lord will destroy this city.” But he seemed to them as one that mocked.... {TA 76.1}
Lot returned sorrowfully to his home, and told the story of his failure. Then the angels bade him arise, and take his wife and two daughters who were yet in his house, and leave the city.... Stupified with sorrow, he lingered, loath to depart. But for the angels of God, they would all have perished in the ruin of Sodom. The heavenly messengers took him and his wife and daughters by the hand, and led them out of the city. {TA 76.2}
Here the angels left them, and turned back to Sodom to accomplish their work of destruction....." {TA 76.3}

It was the angels of God who accomplished the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.

"A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians, and filled the land with mourning. When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished. The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when he permits." {GC88 614.2}

"As the curtain was lifted and I was shown the corruption of this age, my heart sickened, my spirit nearly fainted within me. I saw that the inhabitants of the earth were filling up the measure of the cup of their iniquity. God’s anger is kindled and will be no more appeased until the sinners are destroyed out of the earth. Satan is Christ’s personal enemy. He is the originator and leader of every species of rebellion in heaven and earth." {1T 302.1}

Does God punish? Absolutely.

"The death of Christ was to be the convincing, everlasting argument that the law of God is as unchangeable as His throne. The agonies of the Garden of Gethsemane, the insult, the mockery, and abuse heaped upon God’s dear Son, the horrors and ignominy of the crucifixion, furnish sufficient and thrilling demonstration that God’s justice, when it punishes, does the work thoroughly. The fact that His own Son, the Surety for man, was not spared, is an argument that will stand to all eternity before saint and sinner, before the universe of God, to testify that He will not excuse the transgressor of His law. Every offense against God’s law, however minute, is set down in the reckoning, and when the sword of justice is taken in hand, it will do the work for impenitent transgressors that was done to the divine Sufferer. Justice will strike; for God’s hatred of sin is intense and overwhelming (Manuscript 58, 1897). {3BC 1166.3}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: jamesonofthunder] #159178
12/12/13 05:53 PM
12/12/13 05:53 PM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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APL should be careful not to attribute what God did to Satan...

"The command must have wrung with anguish that father’s heart: “Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, ... and offer him there for a burnt offering.” Isaac was the light of his home, the solace of his old age, the inheritor of the promised blessing; but he was commanded to shed the blood of that son with his own hand. It seemed a fearful impossibility. {EP 91.5}
Satan was at hand to suggest that he must be deceived, for the divine law commands, “Thou shalt not kill.” God would not require what He had forbidden. {EP 92.1}


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #159183
12/13/13 02:50 AM
12/13/13 02:50 AM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: APL
M: Jesus promised to use hornets to drive out the Canaanites. But He never did. Why not? Instead, He commanded Moses and Joshua and the Judges to do it.

A: Yes, WHY NOT? Because the people rejected God. Their unbelief! This was a constant problem. Was it God's plan to send the people into the wilderness for 40 years? Nope. Why did they then spend 40 years there? Unbelief. Hardness of heart. Just as with divorce and polygamy.

M: The facts do not support your conclusion. When Jesus commanded Moses and Joshua and the Judges to attack His enemies not once did He send hornets. Your accusation He withheld hornets because of unbelief and hardened hearts is unwarranted. Moses and Joshua and the Judges were faithful and obedient - not hardened and unbelieving.

A: And remember God also gave rules for divorce and polygamy, both of which God hated.

Jesus did not command the Hebrews to kill criminals and combatants. He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to do it. They were not hardened and unbelieving. Jesus didn't speak directly to the Hebrews. He spoke through Moses, Joshua, and the Judges. Not once did Jesus explain to Moses, Joshua, and the Judges it wasn't His plan to deploy the Hebrews to kill criminals and combatants. Nor did He ever tell them not to. Plus Jesus never sent hornets.

God gave Moses rules for polygamy and divorce, something God HATES. In giving the rules, this in no way proves that this is what GOD desires. It was God's permissive will, to reach the people where they were, because of the hardness of their hearts, the stiffness of their necks. John 1:17 The law indeed was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. As EGW says, God never desired that the people would fight. Please reread #159163.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #159187
12/13/13 03:10 PM
12/13/13 03:10 PM
APL  Offline
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The earth was dark through misapprehension of God. That the gloomy shadows might be lightened, that the world might be brought back to God, Satan's deceptive power was to be broken. This could not be done by force. The exercise of force is contrary to the principles of God's government; He desires only the service of love; and love cannot be commanded; it cannot be won by force or authority. Only by love is love awakened. To know God is to love Him; His character must be manifested in contrast to the character of Satan. This work only one Being in all the universe could do. Only He who knew the height and depth of the love of God could make it known. Upon the world's dark night the Sun of Righteousness must rise, "with healing in His wings." Malachi 4:2. {DA 22.1}

God could have destroyed Satan and his sympathizers as easily as one can cast a pebble to the earth; but He did not do this. Rebellion was not to be overcome by force. Compelling power is found only under Satan's government. The Lord's principles are not of this order. His authority rests upon goodness, mercy, and love; and the presentation of these principles is the means to be used. God's government is moral, and truth and love are to be the prevailing power. {DA 759.1}

Prophecy has plainly stated the nature of Christ's kingdom. He planned a government which would use no force; his subjects would know no oppression. The symbols of earthly governments are wild beasts, but in the kingdom of Christ, men are called upon to behold, not a ferocious beast, but the Lamb of God. Not as a fierce tyrant did he come, but as the Son of man; not to conquer the nations by his iron power, but "to preach good tidings unto the meek;" "to bind up the broken-hearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;" "to comfort all that mourn." He came as the divine Restorer, bringing to oppressed and downtrodden humanity the rich and abundant grace of Heaven, that by the power of his righteousness, man, fallen and degraded though he was, might be a partaker of divinity. {RH, August 18, 1896 par. 3}

Because their understanding was darkened by selfish prejudice, they could not harmonize the power of Christ's convicting words with the humility of His life. They did not appreciate the fact that real greatness can dispense with outward show. This Man's poverty seemed wholly inconsistent with His claim to be the Messiah. They questioned, If He was what He claimed to be, why was He so unpretending? If He was satisfied to be without the force of arms, what would become of their nation? How could the power and glory so long anticipated bring the nations as subjects to the city of the Jews? Had not the priests taught that Israel was to bear rule over all the earth? and could it be possible that the great religious teachers were in error? {DA 242.3}


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #159190
12/13/13 04:04 PM
12/13/13 04:04 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, Jesus commanded Moses to "go up and take" the Promised Land. "God had bidden ["required"] them go up and take the land". The commands "Go up and possess" and "Go up and take" mean "take by force". From Strong's #3423:

Quote:
#3423
yaw-rash', yaw-raysh'
A primitive root; to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin: - cast out, consume, destroy, disinherit, dispossess, drive (-ing) out, enjoy, expel, X without fail, (give to, leave for) inherit (-ance, -or), + magistrate, be (make) poor, come to poverty, (give to, make to) possess, get (have) in (take) possession, seize upon, succeed, X utterly.

"Possess" [#3423] means "to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin". Here's how #3423 is used elsewhere:

Quote:
Ex 34:24 For I will cast out [3423] the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

How did Jesus "cast out [3423]" the Canaanites? He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land. Same word. You have already agreed Jesus commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land with the edge of the sword. You have admitted this several times in no uncertain words. So, why are you now trying to prove the command "go up and possess [3423]" doesn't mean cast out, consume, destroy with the edge of the sword? If not this command, where in the Bible did Jesus command Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to take the land with the edge of the sword? You believe He said it, so post it.

Quote:
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out [3423] before you:

How did Jesus "cast out [3423]" the Canaanites? He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land. Again, same word. You argue the promise to "cast out [3423]" originally meant Jesus would send hornets to kill the Canaanites. But the inspired record proves otherwise. He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to do it. How did they do it? They deployed the Hebrew military. You have said so yourself. I agree.

Quote:
Ex 15:9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy [3423] them.

Once again "destroy [3423]" obviously means to kill with the edge of the sword. Do you agree?

Quote:
Deu 28:42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume [3423].

Obviously "consume [3423]" means to physically destroy. Do you agree?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #159191
12/13/13 04:05 PM
12/13/13 04:05 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
GC 544 is not an alternate description. It is identical to GC 672, 673:

1. They suffer punishment varying in duration and intensity, "according to their works," but finally ending in the second death. (GC 544)

2. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." (GC 673)

Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. {7BC 986.5}

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. It is the time of the judgment and perdition of ungodly men--"the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion." Isaiah 34:8. {GC 672.2}

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

M: APL, do you believe the lake of fire is literal fire? Or, do you believe it is symbolic?

A: BOTH.

M: APL, the passages I posted above describe a very literal lake of fire in which resurrected sinners will suffer in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness. There is nothing symbolic about the fire described in those passages.

A: Did I not answer your question - plainly?

GC 544 is not an alternate description. It is identical to GC 672, 673. The fire described in GC 672, 673 and EW 294 are without a doubt literal. You claim the fire therein portrayed is both literal and symbolic.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #159192
12/13/13 04:09 PM
12/13/13 04:09 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Southwest USA
Originally Posted By: APL
M: esus did not command the Hebrews to kill criminals and combatants. He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to do it. They were not hardened and unbelieving. Jesus didn't speak directly to the Hebrews. He spoke through Moses, Joshua, and the Judges. Not once did Jesus explain to Moses, Joshua, and the Judges it wasn't His plan to deploy the Hebrews to kill criminals and combatants. Nor did He ever tell them not to. Plus Jesus never sent hornets.

A: God gave Moses rules for polygamy and divorce, something God HATES. In giving the rules, this in no way proves that this is what GOD desires. It was God's permissive will, to reach the people where they were, because of the hardness of their hearts, the stiffness of their necks.

Where in the Bible did Jesus command Moses to kill criminals and combatants?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #159194
12/14/13 12:07 AM
12/14/13 12:07 AM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, Jesus commanded Moses to "go up and take" the Promised Land. "God had bidden ["required"] them go up and take the land". The commands "Go up and possess" and "Go up and take" mean "take by force". From Strong's #3423:

Quote:
#3423
yaw-rash', yaw-raysh'
A primitive root; to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin: - cast out, consume, destroy, disinherit, dispossess, drive (-ing) out, enjoy, expel, X without fail, (give to, leave for) inherit (-ance, -or), + magistrate, be (make) poor, come to poverty, (give to, make to) possess, get (have) in (take) possession, seize upon, succeed, X utterly.

"Possess" [#3423] means "to occupy (by driving out previous tenants, and possessing in their place); by implication to seize, to rob, to inherit; also to expel, to impoverish, to ruin". Here's how #3423 is used elsewhere:

Quote:
Ex 34:24 For I will cast out [3423] the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.

How did Jesus "cast out [3423]" the Canaanites? He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land. Same word. You have already agreed Jesus commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land with the edge of the sword. You have admitted this several times in no uncertain words. So, why are you now trying to prove the command "go up and possess [3423]" doesn't mean cast out, consume, destroy with the edge of the sword? If not this command, where in the Bible did Jesus command Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to take the land with the edge of the sword? You believe He said it, so post it.

Quote:
Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out [3423] before you:

How did Jesus "cast out [3423]" the Canaanites? He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to "go up and possess [3423]" the land. Again, same word. You argue the promise to "cast out [3423]" originally meant Jesus would send hornets to kill the Canaanites. But the inspired record proves otherwise. He commanded Moses, Joshua, and the Judges to do it. How did they do it? They deployed the Hebrew military. You have said so yourself. I agree.

Quote:
Ex 15:9 The enemy said, I will pursue, I will overtake, I will divide the spoil; my lust shall be satisfied upon them; I will draw my sword, my hand shall destroy [3423] them.

Once again "destroy [3423]" obviously means to kill with the edge of the sword. Do you agree?

Quote:
Deu 28:42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume [3423].

Obviously "consume [3423]" means to physically destroy. Do you agree?


#159163


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #159197
12/14/13 01:38 AM
12/14/13 01:38 AM
jamesonofthunder  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
"Where in the Bible did Jesus command Moses to kill criminals...?"


Leviticus 20:2 “Say to the Israelites: ‘Any Israelite or any foreigner residing in Israel who sacrifices any of his children to Molek is to be put to death. The members of the community are to stone him.

The Sabbath-Breaker Put to Death

Numbers 15:32 While the Israelites were in the wilderness, a man was found gathering wood on the Sabbath day. 33 Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and the whole assembly, 34 and they kept him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. 35 Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man must die. The whole assembly must stone him outside the camp.” 36 So the assembly took him outside the camp and stoned him to death, as the Lord commanded Moses.


Numbers 35:17 Or if anyone is holding a stone and strikes someone a fatal blow with it, that person is a murderer; the murderer is to be put to death.


Search me oh God and know my heart, test me and know my anxious thoughts, see if there is any offensive way in me and lead me to the way everlasting. Amen
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