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Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: dedication] #159479
12/22/13 03:42 AM
12/22/13 03:42 AM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Active Member 2021

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Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Yes, Dedication, you are correct.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
While Luther was opening a closed Bible to the people of Germany, Tyndale was impelled by the Spirit of God to do the same for England. Wycliffe's Bible had been translated from the Latin text, which contained many errors. It had never been printed, and the cost of manuscript copies was so great that few but wealthy men or nobles could procure it; and, furthermore, being strictly proscribed by the church, it had had a comparatively narrow circulation. In 1516, a year before the appearance of Luther's theses, Erasmus had published his Greek and Latin version of the New Testament. Now for the first time the word of God was printed in the original tongue. In this work many errors of former versions were corrected, and the sense was more clearly rendered. It led many among the educated classes to a better knowledge of the truth, and gave a new impetus to the work of reform. But the common people were still, to a great extent, debarred from God's word. Tyndale was to complete the work of Wycliffe in giving the Bible to his countrymen. {GC 245.1}


Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: APL] #159519
12/23/13 07:27 AM
12/23/13 07:27 AM
Rick H  Offline

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Florida, USA
Originally Posted By: APL
I know Veith's arguments... It should be noted, that it was the NIV that Walter Veith used to find God. He is a strong advocate for the KJV. Last I saw him, the Bible he was preaching from was the NKJV!
The Holy Spirit can reach you even if you all you had was the Jehovah Witnesses bible, but when you go to teach you would be lacking much.

Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: Rick H] #159520
12/23/13 07:42 AM
12/23/13 07:42 AM
Rick H  Offline

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Here is a interesting response Walter Veith gave to critics on this issue..

Walter Veith response...

http://pdf.amazingdiscoveries.org/Newsletters/2009%20fall%20Newsletter-LQ.pdf

Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: Green Cochoa] #159529
12/23/13 04:53 PM
12/23/13 04:53 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Posts: 6,425
Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
kland,

Are you trying to imply that if one did not have a "translation" then his or her truth was "adulterated?"

I'm not following that logic. "Adulterated" means more than something that has not been translated.

Quote:
Yes, Dedication, you are correct.


So now in light of you reading what Dedication wrote, did you get that all straightened out or do you still have questions?

Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: kland] #159543
12/23/13 09:48 PM
12/23/13 09:48 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Posts: 7,003
The Orient
Dedication and you are on two different topics, kland. I don't understand what you are meaning to ask or imply here. Maybe you need to reread what Dedication said. Dedication is speaking of English translations. The Waldenses did not have English translations. These are two separate Bibles.

I have no questions regarding what Dedication has said. My question to you was how you can presume that an untranslated Bible was, by virtue of not having been translated, "adulterated." That logic falls short of a proper a priori justification, to my mind at least.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: kland] #159556
12/24/13 07:01 AM
12/24/13 07:01 AM
dedication  Online Content
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Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,429
Canada
The attempt to "adulterate" scriptures took place even before translations were made.
To adulterate means to change some of the meaning in the scriptures in some subtle way.

Between the death of John the apostle and the reign of Constantine, a number of groups started to corrupt scriptures, saying they were "correcting" them.


Even Eusebius (who lived in Constantine's time) and who did a bit of "adulterating" of scripture himself, was appalled by some of the manuscripts being passed around. He wrote in his ' Church History, Book five, Chapter 28

Quote:
"They (a group who denied the divinity of Christ) have not been afraid to corrupt divine Scriptures, they have rescinded the rule of ancient faith, they have not known Christ...they corrupt the simple faith of scripture and claim to have corrected them. That I am not slandering them anyone will learn who compares their writings, which are in great discord, for those of Asciepiades do not agree with those of Theodotus. Many manuscripts are available because their disciples zealously made copies of their "corrected" though really corrupted--texts."


The early church already had a basic (though there were still some disagreements on a couple books) New Testament prior to 312 AD. And also corrupted manuscripts were already floating around before Constantine became emperor.

When Constantine became Emperor, and accepted Christianity in 312 AD, he found numerous factions within Christianity, and forcefully tried to consolidate Christianity. One thing he tried to do was to adopt a "standardized" bible. But in doing this he combined and blended the various corruptions along with the true.
Basically there were three different scriptures each claiming to be the correct version.

One was the wide spread Asia Minor manuscripts (generally known as the Byzantine/Syrian or Received Text). Another was the western text, and the third the Alexandrian or Egyptian text.

Constantine orders 50 manuscripts of this "standardized" Bible.
A number of scholars believe the Vaticanus, and Sinatic MSS were from this 50.

Yet, these manuscripts did not flourish and spread far and wide.

The Christian people clung to the Received Text which remained the dominant Bible in the east, in Northern Italy and southern France and even in Celtic England.

The Waldensies and similar groups throughout the Roman world, had the Received Text Bible in the old Roman/Latin language, as this was the language they spoke.

It was years later (380-400 AD) when Jerome developed the Vulgate -- also in Latin, but a "low Latin" which differed from the Received Text not only in style but also in doctrinal accuracy. This later became the authorized Bible of the Roman Catholic church.

As centuries passed the old Latin died out as a common language, and soon the only Latin still used was by the church and the universities.

When the Reformation began and the printing press was invented. Brave men, in spite of threats from Rome, began to translate the Bible into the language of the people. They used the Received manuscripts, not the Vulgate and it's imperfect manuscripts.

It's not the fact that our Bibles are translations that is the problem, the question is -- what is their base?

Just like Wycliffe, Tyndale, Luther saw a need for the Bible to be in the language of the people -- that is still true today, and newer translations often bring out meanings that are hard to see in the more archaic language of the KJV.
However, for doctrinal study I want a Bible based on the Received Text, not on adulterated manuscripts. And for that the KJV is the best English Bible

Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: dedication] #159561
12/24/13 11:23 AM
12/24/13 11:23 AM
Rick H  Offline

Group: Admin Team
3000+ Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,112
Florida, USA
I was given a research site with tools that might be good to check out... Research tool

Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: dedication] #159565
12/24/13 03:07 PM
12/24/13 03:07 PM
K
kland  Offline
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Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
Originally Posted By: dedication
It's not the fact that our Bibles are translations that is the problem, the question is -- what is their base?
And this is something Green gets confused on or merges together. Maybe you could explain that to him?

Quote:
However, for doctrinal study I want a Bible based on the Received Text, not on adulterated manuscripts. And for that the KJV is the best English Bible

I guess you said differently than I thought you were saying.

But what do you mean by this?
Quote:
This later became the authorized Bible of the Roman Catholic church.
Isn't KJV the authorized version?

Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: Green Cochoa] #159572
12/24/13 03:41 PM
12/24/13 03:41 PM
K
kland  Offline
SDA
Active Member 2024

5500+ Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 6,425
Midland
Originally Posted By: Green Cochoa
My question to you was how you can presume that an untranslated Bible was, by virtue of not having been translated, "adulterated." That logic falls short of a proper a priori justification, to my mind at least.
Is there something you are missing on the following? Do you not know what "the first of all the peoples of Europe to obtain a translation" means? Do you not know the difference between "truth unadulterated" and the Bible unadulterated?

Green: "that the Bible the Waldensians possessed gave them the unadulterated truth".

Ellen White: "The Waldenses were the first of all the peoples of Europe to obtain a translation of the Holy Scriptures. Hundreds of years before the Reformation, they possessed the Bible in manuscript in their native tongue. They had the truth unadulterated,"

Green says the Bible, but Ellen White says "a translation".

Did anyone else have "a translation"? Or were the Waldenses the first to have "a translation"?

Did anyone else have a "manuscript in their native tongue"? Or were the Waldenses the first to have a "manuscript in their native tongue"?

Did the version, the translation, the manuscript give them "the truth unadulterated"? Or did having any translation, any manuscript in their native tongue which they could read rather than listen to what others told them to think give them "the truth unadulterated"?

Re: The Battle of the Bibles by Walter Veith [Re: kland] #159577
12/24/13 07:56 PM
12/24/13 07:56 PM
dedication  Online Content
Global Moderator
Supporting Member 2022

5500+ Member
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 6,429
Canada
Originally Posted By: kland


But what do you mean by this?
Quote:
This later became the authorized Bible of the Roman Catholic church.
Isn't KJV the authorized version?


The authorized version of scripture by the Roman Catholic Church is Jerome's Vulgate. It reigned supreme for 1000 years as the authorized ROMAN CATHOLIC BIBLE.

During the reformation the Catholic Church did their own translation of an English Bible.
The Definitive Roman Catholic Bible in English is the Douay-Rheims Bible. Also known as the Rheims–Douai Bible or Douai Bible, and abbreviated as D–R, the Douay-Rheims Version of the Holy Bible, is a direct English translation of what is still the authoritative Bible of the Catholic Church - the Latin Vulgate of St. Jerome (342-420).



English translation of the Bible produced by the Commission appointed by James I, and in consequence often spoken of as "King James's Bible" is also AN Authorized Version. It is in general use among English-speaking non-Catholics.

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