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Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: kland] #164370
04/17/14 04:08 PM
04/17/14 04:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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APL:

Originally Posted By: kland
Originally Posted By: APL
Does the death of Christ say anything to you about the death of a sinner? It does not to MM, what about you?
APL, MM is objecting to a sentence structure technicality. You should have said:
Does the death of Christ say hardly anything to you about the death of a sinner? It does not to MM, what about you?

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #164374
04/17/14 08:32 PM
04/17/14 08:32 PM
APL  Offline
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Hardly anything - and what would that be then exactly????

Did Christ die the penalty of transgression? YES. What is the penalty of transgression? DEATH. Did the Father execute Christ? NO. What does that tell us about the death of sinners in the end? (Note to dedication - sinners die! sin will be no more!!)


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #164393
04/18/14 02:41 PM
04/18/14 02:41 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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APL has frequently stated here that God destroys via the "withdraw and permit" principle, i.e., that God is simply allowing the destruction to occur via "natural causes" that do no include any direct action on His part. However, APL and others who adopt this view have things almost precisely backwards. I say "almost" because there are times when God does withdraw His protection in a specific manner to allow consequences to come for sin. However, while this occurs on occasion, ever since the inception of sin, God has used the "withdraw and permit" principle to allow sinners to live without being killed by His glorious presence.

It was only by cloaking Himself and His character that God was able to allow sinners to live. For this reason, Jesus was unable to come among us in His divine glory. He came, instead, as a man; as one of us. By withdrawing His glory, and preventing us from seeing it, He prevented our immediate destruction.

The day will come, however, when sinners will be slain by the brightness of His coming. In that day, when they see Him, they will seek to hide. His glory will cause them to shudder in horror.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
With awful distinctness do priests and rulers recall the events of Calvary. With shuddering horror they remember how, wagging their heads in Satanic exultation, they exclaimed, “He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him.” [Matthew 27:42, 43.] {GC88 643.3}

Vividly they recall the Saviour's parable of the husbandmen who refused to render to their lord the fruit of the vineyard, who abused his servants and slew his son. They remember, too, the sentence which they themselves pronounced: The lord of the vineyard will miserably destroy those wicked men. In the sin and punishment of those unfaithful men, the priests and elders see their own course and their own just doom. And now there rises a cry of mortal agony. Louder than the shout, “Crucify him! crucify him!” which rang through the streets of Jerusalem, swells the awful, despairing wail, “He is the Son of God! He is the true Messiah!” They seek to flee from the presence of the King of kings. In the deep caverns of the earth, rent asunder by the warring of the elements, they vainly attempt to hide. {GC88 643.4}



When He comes, it is the opposite of withdrawing. While He was withdrawn from humanity, so that no one could see His face, we were permitted to live. Unsanctified sinners who have refused His grace will then be slain when He draws near.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
In that day when every work shall be brought into judgment, when the Lord Jesus, with the marks of the crucifixion on his body, shall come in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, those who, while holding positions of trust, have caused God's people to suffer, will cast their idols of silver and gold to the moles and to the bats; "to go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth." "For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain." {ST, May 13, 1897 par. 10}

They have shown no respect for God, no fear to transgress his commandments; but have refused to give their fellowmen rights equal to their own, and have tried to make them disobey God. They have stubbornly adhered to man-made commandments, and they will be judged accordingly. Those who persist in enacting laws which men can not obey without dishonoring God, and those that obey these laws, and trample on the law of the eternal God, must prepare for the result; for God will not change, nor alter the thing which has gone out of his mouth. {ST, May 13, 1897 par. 11}


When God's anger is kindled, if He does NOT withdraw and permit sinners to live, they will be killed. When He withdraws, however, they are exposed and may die of "natural causes." It is God's constant balance between mercy and justice that permits any of us to continue living in sin. If we had only the justice of God, all of us would cease to exist. In mercy, He hides Himself and His wrath from us, permitting us to live. If He sees fit in justice to abandon us to "natural causes," we may find our lives cut short. Even in this, God is righteous and fair.

When God asserted His presence with greater vividness to the people, they feared for their lives.

Originally Posted By: Ellen White
In the hearing of all Israel, God had spoken in awful majesty upon Mount Sinai, declaring the precepts of his law. The people, overwhelmed with the sense of guilt, and fearing to be consumed by the glory of the presence of the Lord, had entreated Moses, "Speak thou with us, and we will hear; but let not God speak with us, lest we die." God called Moses up into the mount that he might communicate to him the laws for Israel, but how quickly the solemn impression made upon that people by the manifestation of God's presence, passed away. Even the leaders of the host seemed to have lost their reason. The memory of their covenant with God, their terror when, falling upon their faces, they had exceedingly feared and quaked, all had vanished like smoke. Although the glory of God was still like devouring fire upon the top of the mount, yet when the presence of Moses was withdrawn, the old habits of thought and feeling began to assert their power. The people wearied of waiting for the return of Moses, and began to clamor for some visible representation of God. {PH154 43.3}


This is the same God who will come in the clouds of glory in the promised Advent. Many will be afraid of Him--with cause.

Originally Posted By: The Bible
And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: (2 Thessalonians 2:8)


Note that the Bible never says sin or Satan will destroy the wicked when Jesus comes. It says He will destroy them by His brightness.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #164394
04/18/14 03:15 PM
04/18/14 03:15 PM
APL  Offline
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Green - include ALL EGW quotes on the subject, for it you don't you can pick and choose what you want to make it say what you want. Example {GC 36}, God does not stand toward the sinner as an executioner of the sentence against transgression; but He leaves the rejectors of His mercy to themselves, to reap that which they have sown. What is the sentence against transgression? Death. Or this one, It is God that shields His creatures and hedges them in from the power of the destroyer. But the Christian world have shown contempt for the law of Jehovah; and the Lord will do just what He has declared that He would--He will withdraw His blessings from the earth and remove His protecting care from those who are rebelling against His law and teaching and forcing others to do the same. Satan has control of all whom God does not especially guard. He will favor and prosper some in order to further his own designs, and he will bring trouble upon others and lead men to believe that it is God who is afflicting them. {GC 589.2} And note, withdrawing is not necessarily leaving as you are trying to imply, but withdrawing His protection. God is our shield. But He will not force Himself on us, if we persistantly reject Him, He will do was He said. Yes, when God does reveal Himself, there will be terror. WHY? God's GLORY IS HIS CHARACTER.

You should study the following, not that you will...

Four readings on the Book of Transparency [also known as the Book of Revelation] by Sigve Tonstad, M.D., Ph.D.

1) Transparency and Understanding
2) Crisis in the Heavenly Council
3) Revelation - Not Retribution
4) Vision of Healing

CLICK HERE FOR AUDIO AND POWERPOINT

Even Jon Paulien, Ph.D., another Revelation scholar joins in the conversation. From August 2013.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #164395
04/18/14 03:57 PM
04/18/14 03:57 PM
Green Cochoa  Offline
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Joined: Apr 2008
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The Orient
APL,

Do you believe that God has NOT withdrawn His face and glory from sinners in order to permit them to live?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.


We can receive of heaven's light only as we are willing to be emptied of self. We can discern the character of God, and accept Christ by faith, only as we consent to the bringing into captivity of every thought to the obedience of Christ. And to all who do this, the Holy Spirit is given without measure. In Christ "dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. And ye are complete in Him." [Colossians 2:9, 10.] {GW 57.1} -- Ellen White.
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: APL] #164398
04/18/14 04:53 PM
04/18/14 04:53 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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Originally Posted By: APL
Hardly anything - and what would that be then exactly????

Did Christ die the penalty of transgression? YES. What is the penalty of transgression? DEATH. Did the Father execute Christ? NO. What does that tell us about the death of sinners in the end? (Note to dedication - sinners die! sin will be no more!!)

Who said "hardly anything"?

Are you aware of any differences between Jesus' experience and what the wicked will experience? Here is some things to consider:

Quote:
The arm of Omnipotence alone can cleanse the earth from the evil which Satan has brought into it. This He will do by destroying the world by fire, even as He destroyed the old world by a flood. {RH, April 16, 1901 par. 13}

Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. Malachi 4:1; 2 Peter 3:10. The earth's surface seems one molten mass--a vast, seething lake of fire. {GC 672.2}

The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. Proverbs 11:31. They "shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." Malachi 4:1. Some are destroyed as in a moment, while others suffer many days. All are punished "according to their deeds." The sins of the righteous having been transferred to Satan, he is made to suffer not only for his own rebellion, but for all the sins which he has caused God's people to commit. His punishment is to be far greater than that of those whom he has deceived. {GC 673.1}

When the flood of waters was at its height upon the earth, it had the appearance of a boundless lake of water. When God finally purifies the earth, it will appear like a boundless lake of fire. As God preserved the ark amid the commotions of the flood, because it contained eight righteous persons, he will preserve the New Jerusalem, containing the faithful of all ages, from righteous Abel down to the last saint which lived. Although the whole earth, with the exception of that portion where the city rests, will be wrapped in a sea of liquid fire, yet the city is preserved as was the ark, by a miracle of Almighty power. It stands unharmed amid the devouring elements. "But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein shall be burned up." {3SG 87.2}

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together. I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

The wicked are filled with the same hatred of God that inspires Satan; but they see that their case is hopeless, that they cannot prevail against Jehovah. Their rage is kindled against Satan and those who have been his agents in deception, and with the fury of demons they turn upon them. {GC 671.2}

The wicked are enraged. They hate God. They conspire with evil angels to attack the New Jerusalem. They hate one another. They turn upon each other. Fire rains down from heaven and raises up from below. They suffer in a flaming, liquid sea of fire in duration and intensity according to their sinfulness. Satan's dies last.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #164399
04/18/14 05:08 PM
04/18/14 05:08 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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GC, good point. There are times when Jesus employs the "withdraw and permit principle of punishment". It applies to evil men and evil angels. "God will use His enemies as instruments to punish those who have followed their own pernicious ways whereby the truth of God has been misrepresented, misjudged, and dishonored." {LDE 242.3}

However, the "withdraw and permit principle of punishment" does not apply to the forces of nature. Nature, as you know, is not self-acting. Without His intimate involvement nature is inert. It would cease to act or exist. Jesus uses the forces of nature to cause suffering, death, and destruction. APL is forced to conclude nature is indeed self-acting.

I also like your point about Jesus withdrawing His glorious brightness to protect us from consuming to death. Thank you, Jesus.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #164400
04/18/14 05:23 PM
04/18/14 05:23 PM
APL  Offline
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Western, USA
Revelation 15:2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mixed with fire,
Isaiah 33:14-15 Sinners in Zion are terrified; Trembling has seized the godless. "Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning?" 15 He who walks righteously and speaks with sincerity, He who rejects unjust gain And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe; He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil;
Proverbs 25:21-22 If your enemy is hungry, give him food to eat; And if he is thirsty, give him water to drink; 22 For you will heap burning coals on his head, And the LORD will reward you.
Romans 12:19-21 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. 20 "BUT IF YOUR ENEMY IS HUNGRY, FEED HIM, AND IF HE IS THIRSTY, GIVE HIM A DRINK; FOR IN SO DOING YOU WILL HEAP BURNING COALS ON HIS HEAD." 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

What is God's glory? HIS CHARACTER. What is the final message of mercy to the world? HIS CHARACTER.


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Daryl] #164401
04/18/14 07:02 PM
04/18/14 07:02 PM
Mountain Man  Offline
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APL, are you suggesting the molten, flaming, liquid lake of fire (described in the passages I posted above) symbolizes God's character?

PS - you didn't answer my questions.

Re: Does God Punish? (Part 3) [Re: Mountain Man] #164407
04/18/14 10:15 PM
04/18/14 10:15 PM
APL  Offline
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Originally Posted By: Mountain Man
APL, are you suggesting the molten, flaming, liquid lake of fire (described in the passages I posted above) symbolizes God's character?

PS - you didn't answer my questions.
Are the seven seals real? Are the seven trumpets real? How about the bowls, are they literal? What happens in the wine press? How readest thou?


Oh, that men might open their minds to know God as he is revealed in his Son! {ST, January 20, 1890}
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